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I thought as much. Staggering dissent with VP's lost would be difficult if not impossible with Darkest Hour's coding, and the Union of Britain thing is a bug- I'd rather remove the election decision and just let them enact the reform during peacetime.TheMcD posted:I don't have a loving clue how the "women in the military" decision reflects reality, but it needs to cost more. Dissent is just a temporary thing, and 50% manpower growth boost is loving sweet and permanent. Have you ever done that as the Soviet Union? Oh god, the manpower. Or how about full-feminist Union of Britain (i.E. allowing women to serve during the election events, then doing the same through the decision for 100% growth boost)? poo poo's nuts. Well it's not like you're going to run out of manpower as the Soviets anyway  I still prefer the current system to the half-done mobilization system Darkest Hour uses, but it needs to have some kind of cap- otherwise it just keeps growing and growing infinitely.
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Mar 22, 2015 00:26
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xthnru posted:Let's ask the CNT-FAI in Catalonia in the '30s: That's why they lost, they buckled under the enormous pressure of producing war-tampons.
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Mar 22, 2015 01:01
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Kavak posted:This cropped up in a discussion about the "Women in the military" decision for Kaiserreich: It seems fair to me. It also makes a lot of sense too. If your land is being invaded and you are under threat of total occupation then you pull out all the stops. I don't think many Russians were thinking "I would rather live under the Nazis than fight with a woman!"
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Mar 22, 2015 01:13
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Don't give the women's conscription decision any penalties, it's fine as it is.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:32
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God knows France could use the manpower.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:37
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In fact, I'm now in favor of expanding the volunteer service option to all ideologies. Liberal democracies and fascist dictatorships had women voluteers, after all. 
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Mar 22, 2015 02:42
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Hell, Russia gets the event for the 1st Women's Division of Death (which honestly should always be followed by a  ) already, why not?
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Mar 22, 2015 03:55
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Grizzwold posted:Hell, Russia gets the event for the 1st Women's Division of Death (which honestly should always be followed by a I like to imagine Bochkareva makes it a mercenary unit if she's turned down by the government.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:01
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Kavak posted:Well it's not like you're going to run out of manpower as the Soviets anyway
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Mar 22, 2015 04:15
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Ofaloaf posted:DH's mobilization system does make the threat of manpower depletion far more serious than the older HOI2-everything-is-always-growing model. Given how the Franco-German war ends up in some half-stalemate over Belgium and Alsace-Lorraine half the time, the DH system makes static defence meatgrinders all the more deadly, which would fit things pretty nicely. That's what I was saying, but the mobilization system lacks the ability to build demobilized units, which really fucks with your army construction.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:29
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It also gives it a clear line from CK2. Absolute Cognatic Succession -> Female Rulers in EUIV -> Womens' Suffrage -> Full Conscription of Both Sexes
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Mar 22, 2015 06:50
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I think if you Socialist hard enough you can effectively conscript men and women in Victoria 2.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:05
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If anything should be nerfed then it'd be the flat 50% bonus to manpower. It's pretty high.
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Mar 22, 2015 09:37
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DrSunshine posted:It also gives it a clear line from CK2. Does V2 even have women's suffrage? I've seen events about women protesting, but can you actually grant women the vote?
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Mar 22, 2015 09:57
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Does V2 even have women's suffrage? I've seen events about women protesting, but can you actually grant women the vote? Yup, you just need to reach the required amount of militancy and consciousness. I can't remember the effect of the decision, though.
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Mar 22, 2015 11:30
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ThaumPenguin posted:Yup, you just need to reach the required amount of militancy and consciousness. Very slight adjustments in class voting weights. Rich women don't vote I guess???
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Mar 22, 2015 11:58
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Autonomous Monster posted:Very slight adjustments in class voting weights. More men get rich than women do.
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Mar 22, 2015 12:00
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More specifically, there are more bachelor or widowed rich men than women
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Mar 22, 2015 13:59
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YF-23 posted:More men get rich than women do. The atomic unit of population in Vicky isn't the person, it's the POP- i.e., one working adult and three dependants. Even if they have no money themselves, the wives of rich men still count as Capis or Aristos. 420 Gank Mid posted:More specifically, there are more bachelor or widowed rich men than women Marginally more reasonable, but, again, the POP system really doesn't have that much subtlety.
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Mar 22, 2015 14:20
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ThaumPenguin posted:Yup, you just need to reach the required amount of militancy and consciousness. If Victoria 3 happens (oh god please) I hope they can devise a new system because it always felt rear end backwards to have to intentionally piss off your populous to advance to modern rights. I mean, I get it in the context of the time, conceding voting rights etc. to the poor was seen as a defeat by the bourgeois so in the mindset of the time it makes sense as a mechanic but it just feels so weird to a modern audience.
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Mar 22, 2015 14:23
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Autonomous Monster posted:Very slight adjustments in class voting weights. Always saw it that poor men had a higher mortality rate due to fighting in wars, working in mines and other dangerous areas (women worked in dangerous places too of course) so perhaps the ratio of women to men was slightly higher in the poorer classes than the richer one.
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Mar 22, 2015 14:43
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it works that way because its an imperfect simulation that occasionally breaks its own rules to bring about an effective outcome jesus christ
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Mar 22, 2015 14:44
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Autonomous Monster posted:The atomic unit of population in Vicky isn't the person, it's the POP- i.e., one working adult and three dependants. Even if they have no money themselves, the wives of rich men still count as Capis or Aristos. Just because it's supposed to represent that doesn't mean that the Victoria 2 world is populated entirely by perfect nuclear families. I mean you are basically saying that when you lose POPs in combat the controller of the province the soldier POP is from drags the soldier's wife and kids out and puts them in front of the firing squad. 
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Mar 22, 2015 14:54
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YF-23 posted:Just because it's supposed to represent that doesn't mean that the Victoria 2 world is populated entirely by perfect nuclear families. I mean you are basically saying that when you lose POPs in combat the controller of the province the soldier POP is from drags the soldier's wife and kids out and puts them in front of the firing squad. Well, a fifth of the soldier's families, but sure, whatever. Even if we assume that the relation only holds in the aggregate, though, we still need to prove that gender ratios differ meaningfully between class bands. Chief Savage Man might be onto something, but I've got to be honest with you guys, I'm less interested in whether a reason can be found than what Paradox's reason was in the first place. Podcat, where are youuu~?
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Mar 22, 2015 15:19
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:"Simply because it costs too much" is nothing more than poorly veiled sexism and socially reactionary thought. It's this, the DH userbase ranges from conservative to fascist. This thread still makes me laugh http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?673998-Usable-manpower-ratio
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Mar 22, 2015 15:20
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Does "POP" actually stand for something, or is it just a funny way of writing "population unit in Victoria 2"?
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Mar 22, 2015 16:09
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DrSunshine posted:Does "POP" actually stand for something, or is it just a funny way of writing "population unit in Victoria 2"? Just an abbreviation for Population. Been a holdover since Victoria 1.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:22
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Enjoy posted:It's this, the DH userbase ranges from conservative to fascist. This thread still makes me laugh http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?673998-Usable-manpower-ratio Goddamn, why are Paradox's forums so messed up? I love the company and the games but I've been a member of the forums for... about a decade, and I can't remember them ever working any better than "just about ok". Tried to open this on the Awful App led to me having to merge accounts for the second time but apparently the first time I did it it didn't work: my old new account didn't exist so I had to make new new account. That then has to be logged into with a login button and not the prominent UN/PW box at the top. I eventually logged in, only to get the "you don't have permission to view this page" notification. I just... what. Stumiester fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 16:27
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Stumiester posted:Goddamn, why are Paradox's forums so messed up? I love to company and the games but I've been a member of the forums for... about a decade, and I can't remember them ever working any better than "just about ok". Anyone else remember when the Paradox forums were literally hosted on an old PC under Johan's desk? The good old days 
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Mar 22, 2015 16:32
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My drat rear end in a top hat democratic nations keep going super liberal and I can't figure out how to make them cut it out. I think it's somehow tied to shooting up the prestige line? It'd be fine, except the sudden switch utterly cripples my economy (slashing taxation, can't support factories, etc). Anyway, gently caress liberals. That's what this game is teaching me. The USCA will rise to prominence one day, I swear it! 
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Mar 22, 2015 16:41
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Why am I so horrible at V2  I want to love it so muchedit-- I need an Intro to V2 101 class.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:46
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DrSunshine posted:Does "POP" actually stand for something, or is it just a funny way of writing "population unit in Victoria 2"? Part of Population.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:49
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RagnarokAngel posted:If Victoria 3 happens (oh god please) I hope they can devise a new system because it always felt rear end backwards to have to intentionally piss off your populous to advance to modern rights. See, my thinking has always been that Vicky should work on the mindset you describe, that the advancement of rights is a defeat, because you are the powers that be and that is how they saw it. I'm not sure if I can properly articulate why the mindset of "gotta go maximum progressive" rubs me the wrong way, but it just feels like a whitewashing of history. I suppose it's that it minimizes how progress was held back because of deeply-entrenched societal reasons, not just because the government never felt like pressing the equal rights button. It's a very top-down philosophy for progress, and it lacks historical basis. Ultimately, Victoria should be the story of how power responds to a growing populace that refuses to be ignored any more, not about how governments modernized on their own because they knew it was The Right Thing To Do.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:55
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Drone posted:Anyone else remember when the Paradox forums were literally hosted on an old PC under Johan's desk? And then forums crashed every time he accidentally kicked the server.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:13
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DStecks posted:See, my thinking has always been that Vicky should work on the mindset you describe, that the advancement of rights is a defeat, because you are the powers that be and that is how they saw it. It's much more difficult to make a game about the former than the latter. It's kind of like how Twilight Struggle is about the Cold War in the Dulles-ish mindset rather than the Cold War reality- because that notion of the Cold War makes for a better 2-player game than something that tried to approach it more historically. The 1979 Iranian revolution and all Islamic terrorism mentioned in the game are Soviet cards, for example.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:16
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Chief Savage Man posted:Always saw it that poor men had a higher mortality rate due to fighting in wars, working in mines and other dangerous areas (women worked in dangerous places too of course) so perhaps the ratio of women to men was slightly higher in the poorer classes than the richer one. Historically, in some countries the left was actually wary of women's suffrage because women were seen as being more religious and conformist, generally unwilling to rock the boat and less likely to support 'extreme' policies such as socialism. In Belgium, women (with the exception of WWI war widows) weren't allowed to vote at the national level until 1948. I have no idea what the real-life effects were, that would have been an interesting subject for a study.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:17
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Panzeh posted:It's much more difficult to make a game about the former than the latter. It's kind of like how Twilight Struggle is about the Cold War in the Dulles-ish mindset rather than the Cold War reality- because that notion of the Cold War makes for a better 2-player game than something that tried to approach it more historically. I suppose how I would envision a game about the industrial revolution to WWI is that it's an era dominated by socially stratified great powers, where the ruling class is obsessed with foreign policy and the underclass is becoming a hotbed of domestic turmoil. The common people are starting to push for basic rights, while the rulers see the world as one big game to prove whose country has the biggest dick. You could actually do something wonderfully satirical with it: put the player in the imperialistic mindset, that sees foreign policy as a giant game of Risk (because in this context it is), having to deal with the intrusions of the dirty poors. Maybe this is an overgeneralization, but where you're talking about things in terms of Twilight Struggle, I'm thinking more along the lines of DEFCON. Don't let the player whitewash history to make imperialism OK because you pressed the "give women the vote" button, put them in the imperialist mindset to show them how hosed it is.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:43
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DStecks posted:I suppose how I would envision a game about the industrial revolution to WWI is that it's an era dominated by socially stratified great powers, where the ruling class is obsessed with foreign policy and the underclass is becoming a hotbed of domestic turmoil. The common people are starting to push for basic rights, while the rulers see the world as one big game to prove whose country has the biggest dick. You could actually do something wonderfully satirical with it: put the player in the imperialistic mindset, that sees foreign policy as a giant game of Risk (because in this context it is), having to deal with the intrusions of the dirty poors. Its just that the 19th century is near enough to modern times that looking back and going my god what have I done stings a little sharper than wiping out the north american natives in EU or effecting tribal "resettling" in CK.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:56
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My problem with Vicky's mechanics are how weird and kinda wrong things can be from a gameplay stand point unless you're trying to do something different from the normal gameplay. As a monarchy trying to cling to the old ways, the mechanics seem spot on for modeling what happened. You don't want your people pissed or aware of what could be. But there's no incentive other than roleplay to do this, and will actively hurt your country in the long run as no one's smart enough to work in factories, people flee your country for freer pastures, you will deal with more pissed off people you kill constantly (further reducing your population), and all this prevents you from expanding territory too. It's all bad, whereas if you wanted to go maximum democracy, you have to fight the game mechanics which largely do not apply to you. It mostly boils down to why do you have to piss off your people just to progress? It makes no sense, and the end result is a better country over all (usually). It's very bizarre that when you want a free country, you have to abuse your own people every step of the way to make it happen. Whereas to be a backwards country, you don't have to abuse them at all, and actively try to coddle and closely monitor them (ignoring the revolts). I don't get that... I'd also like to see immigration based on prestige too. If I'm the USCA/Brazil/Chile/Etc and are more prestigious than the USA, and have more freedoms, people should flock to me. But instead the USA get's hardcoded more immigration. It's really deterministic. If people looked down on your country, why would they move there? I feel like the move from V1 to V2 was very sideways. Lots of improvements but also a lot of odd design decisions. I hope V3 moves away from that.
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Mar 22, 2015 18:14
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The best part of Vicky 2 was: The people want 12 hour workday  Institute basic healthcare The people want 12 hour workday  Institute minimum pay The people want 12 hour workday Institute basic safety regulations  Militant socialist are rising in your nation  Institute 12 hour workday
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Mar 22, 2015 18:45
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