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Yamcha never won a single fight, because his role in the series was that of exposition, which means he had to take a dive to establish exactly what Goku would need to overcome. He even settles for third in the Budokai because Goku and Krillin were both trained by Roshi. He doesn't even get that far though, because he is needed to establish a different fighter in the tournament, the Turtle Hermit in disguise, IIRC. He gets really bitter about it too, trying to sort of out him. Raditz in retrospect never really had a bad moment. He was clearly superior the entire time and mainly served to establish the new obstacle to be overcome: Their fights up until this point were child's play and some serious poo poo was coming their way and he represented their weakest representative. This is also the point where I hate power levels, because the gap is just too goddamned big. All that training Goku did during Dragonball just somehow amounts to a measly 350 PL and that's a bit like taking the piss out of the memories you had of the amazing old fights just to say "those were nothing, check this out!" and then it scales horribly unrealistically. Power levels would have benefited more from a way lower threshold for just about everything, even Freeza, for not stretching the power creep. That is of course just my opinion as it just doesn't seem like everyone really got stronger once we got to Z, it's just that everyone but Goku progressively got weaker.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:12
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Mordaedil posted:Yamcha never won a single fight He won against the Invisible Man and he did manage to beat up a starving Goku I guess. I'm not sure if he managed to defeat any other person who wasn't a nameless Tenkaichi participant/mook.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:23
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I just feel Raditz because, due to his position in the series, he's doomed to forever be The Tutorial Fight.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:40
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He was actually pretty drat hard in Legacy 1 but that game is also a trash heap so eh.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:44
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Raditz is more doomed by the Saibaman comment. and the fact they're able to 'Grow' him.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:51
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drrockso20 posted:That makes me realize the perfect plot for a movie bringing back Raditz would be Goten hearing Raditz get brought up in a conversation, and getting curious about the uncle he never met, gathers the Dragon Balls with help from Trunks and wishes Raditz back to life, Raditz tries to kill him and Trunks but they swat his attacks away easily, and what follows is a series of events involving Goten and Raditz bonding(a running theme should be Raditz completely gob-smacked about everything that's happened between his death and the present), although I'm not sure how one would end such a movie I would honestly watch the poo poo out of that.
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Mar 23, 2015 12:56
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Weren't the Saibamen Vegeta and Nappa brought supposed to be abnormally strong, though? Saiyan society as a whole seems to be totally hosed up. You'd really have to know the power of each and every Saiyan and know how they fit into the hierarchy to know how it works, but my inkling is that the strongest rise to positions of power while the weakest take on foot soldier/service type roles. But it also suppresses stand-outs like Goku. A lot of people - mostly on Reddit- tend to ask "Well why didn't Vegeta use the Dragon Balls to bring back all the Saiyans?" Well why the hell would he? A race of people he now considers to be weaklings led by his "father" who, in hindsight, wasn't really much of a parent to him to begin with. I am mildly curious to know what Nappa did that was so special to warrant him being Vegeta's bodyguard.
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Mar 23, 2015 13:12
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Aurain posted:Yamcha wasn't so bad in his initial scenes, he could hang with Goku when no one else could previously and the Rogafufuken was neat. It's just that it was the last time he would ever be relevant. Yeah, Yamcha fills the classic role of the strongest opponent from the last arc being beaten by the villain of the new arc to show how strong the new villain is. He also mostly did exposition throughout the early parts of Dragonball. whenever there as something the others needed to know you could count on Yamcha to spurt out the info. When he stopped doing that, he was basically doomed to be the supporting cast guy that gets beaten because the fans remember his face. same as everybody else, really, it just started earlier. it's kind of a shame, because even with a couple of minor chances, he could have been much more relevant to the series, making him a much better fall guy. The entire 'new beats old' thing in shounen really is somewhat unfortunate, since it always means that established characters are getting thrown under the bus for new ones, that probably wont even last the arc. As for Raditz, he is victim just a victim of the worst invention of DBZ, powerlevels.
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Mar 23, 2015 13:12
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I like the game Attack of the Saiyans where Raditz is a mid-game boss that's fairly tough. Then his ghost rematches Goku twice after he learns Kaioken and... well, his first fight was tough, at least. 
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Mar 23, 2015 13:36
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Mordaedil posted:This is also the point where I hate power levels, because the gap is just too goddamned big. All that training Goku did during Dragonball just somehow amounts to a measly 350 PL and that's a bit like taking the piss out of the memories you had of the amazing old fights just to say "those were nothing, check this out!" and then it scales horribly unrealistically. Power levels would have benefited more from a way lower threshold for just about everything, even Freeza, for not stretching the power creep. If it makes you feel better, Goku's power went up to like 900 ish when he used the Kamehameha. So yeah, it amounted for something.
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Mar 23, 2015 13:50
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Rudoku posted:If it makes you feel better, Goku's power went up to like 900 ish when he used the Kamehameha. So yeah, it amounted for something. Remember that attacks like the Kamehameha that raised the user's power level on use were incredibly rare outside of Earth/Namek to the point that Vegeta considered his Galick Gun a secret technique. Vegeta and the earthlings were operating on a completely different set of rules than Freeza and his minions, and they all got killed because of it. The only reason Freeza himself lasted so long was that he had the raw power to shrug off everything short of a Super Saiyan.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:11
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Zonekeeper posted:Remember that attacks like the Kamehameha that raised the user's power level on use were incredibly rare outside of Earth/Namek to the point that Vegeta considered his Galick Gun a secret technique. This is really important and so many fans are forgetting it when discussing the series. Powerlevels are bullshit! It's actually a plot point. Only Freeza and his organization use them and they don't work once during the series to actually correctly determine the outcome of a fight.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:15
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I do kinda wonder why Zarbon and Dodoria were considered Frieza's bodyguard buddies when he had stronger mooks hanging around.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:17
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Only ones stronger were the Ginyu Force, and I think they worked directly for King Cold rather than Frieza.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:18
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The Ginyu Force? Aren't they mercenaries?
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Mar 23, 2015 14:19
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Apparently outside of the Ginyu Force they really were the strongest around (even the upcoming movie has someone go "This guy's as strong as Zarbon!" as a form of praise which is kinda pathetic). And Freeza probably didn't want five fruitcakes around when they could be wrecking planets or something.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:21
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New Leaf posted:Weren't the Saibamen Vegeta and Nappa brought supposed to be abnormally strong, though? I'd imagine the kai from whatever quadrant planet Vegeta is from would have some words,most of them being variations of gently caress no.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:23
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The Ginyu Force? Aren't they mercenaries?
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Mar 23, 2015 14:23
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The Ginyu Force? Aren't they mercenaries? They are Freedom Fighters (they literally fight freedom) just like the power rangers and their Zordon is Freeza (or King Cold, while Freeza is his Alpha 5?), so of course they come to his aid when he asks for it. All to suppress the dreadful terrors of anarchy. And free press.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:28
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Can everyone stop saying "powerlevels are bullshit"? We get it.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:30
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If they're quoting Vegeta from DBZA they're still using it in the wrong context because he was talking about characters suddenly getting exactly the right amount of powerups needed to remain relevant despite the exponentially growing strength of the bad guys.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:34
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sharktamer posted:Can everyone stop saying "powerlevels are bullshit"? We get it. We'll stop as soon as people stop acting like they're meaningful. (So, never. )
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Mar 23, 2015 14:34
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sharktamer posted:Can everyone stop saying "powerlevels are bullshit"? We get it. No you have to understand how much smarter they are than a punchman cartoon.
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Mar 23, 2015 14:35
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Powerlevels accurately predict every battle. The guy with the higher level wins. Even the makankosappo had higher than Raditz power level. Just because the heroes could hide and suppress it doesn't mean it didn't matter.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:00
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Kild posted:Powerlevels accurately predict every battle. The guy with the higher level wins. Even the makankosappo had higher than Raditz power level. Just because the heroes could hide and suppress it doesn't mean it didn't matter. Technically Yamcha lost to a Saibaman he was stronger than and Vegeta got defeated by a bunch of dudes with lower powerlevels than him (even put together) and Goku beat Kid Buu with a Spirit Bomb despite being weaker than him, but otherwise... yeah. Edit: If Toriyama really wanted to show that powerlevels didn't matter then maybe, at some point in the story, Krillin should have HIT SOMETHING with his friggin' Kienzan. Pureauthor fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 15:03
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I'm sure Frieza's tail will think twice before showing its scales around Krillin again. 
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Mar 23, 2015 15:15
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Kild posted:Powerlevels accurately predict every battle. The guy with the higher level wins. Even the makankosappo had higher than Raditz power level. Just because the heroes could hide and suppress it doesn't mean it didn't matter. You mean the power levels they stopped using after the Frieza Saga
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Mar 23, 2015 15:27
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sharktamer posted:Can everyone stop saying "powerlevels are bullshit"? We get it. For a solid 200 pages in this thread have been completely void of power level chat, but like the worst cockroaches it resurfaces whenever somebody leaves it out for days and someone new comes in. It's the Internet DBZ cycle. I wouldn't even get into it were it not for that really dumb spergy video by some dickheads discussing it on YouTube posted in one of these threads.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:31
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Pureauthor posted:Technically Yamcha lost to a Saibaman he was stronger than and Vegeta got defeated by a bunch of dudes with lower powerlevels than him (even put together) and Goku beat Kid Buu with a Spirit Bomb despite being weaker than him, but otherwise... yeah. Saibaman you kind of have a point but Goku was stronger than Vegeta with the Kaioken. Goku was also stronger than Kid Buu especially since he needed to be "revitalized" to kill him. e: Actually where is Yamcha's PL stated? Other than the Daizenshuu which I don't trust. It could very well be that he was weaker than the Saibaman. Captain Oblivious posted:You mean the power levels they stopped using after the Frieza Saga What? Are there other power levels? Kild fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 15:41
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The point is that the fixation on power levels is loving retarded when it stopped being a thing they actively measured except in vague and relative terms for two thirds of the series.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:47
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Onmi posted:Raditz is more doomed by the Saibaman comment. and the fact they're able to 'Grow' him. I forget, was the fact that the Saibamen were related to Raditz actually in the original or was it just something TFS made up?
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Mar 23, 2015 15:47
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Kild posted:Saibaman you kind of have a point but Goku was stronger than Vegeta with the Kaioken. Goku was also stronger than Kid Buu especially since he needed to be "revitalized" to kill him. Actually yes. There's kili measured by Babidi's men.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:48
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Larryb posted:I forget, was the fact that the Saibamen were related to Raditz actually in the original or was it just something TFS made up? No, they were established as being as strong as Raditz in the original.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:49
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Larryb posted:I forget, was the fact that the Saibamen were related to Raditz actually in the original or was it just something TFS made up? In the original. Although Nappa states "In terms of raw strength" first so Raditz's techniques would likely give him an edge (as seen in Xenoverse where almost all his skills are bloody amazing)
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Mar 23, 2015 15:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:The point is that the fixation on power levels is loving retarded when it stopped being a thing they actively measured except in vague and relative terms for two thirds of the series. Yes no one is fixated on it. It was just accurate when it was used. The Bee posted:Actually yes. There's kili measured by Babidi's men. Which was also accurate. 
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Mar 23, 2015 15:58
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Am I the only one that actually found Raditz kind of scary as a little kid?
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Mar 23, 2015 16:06
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:I'm sure Frieza's tail will think twice before showing its scales around Krillin again. That's why Krillen is shaved again in 'F'. Frieza recognises him and his tail twitches nervously.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:42
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Raxivace posted:Am I the only one that actually found Raditz kind of scary as a little kid? Well, he was a horrific monster who beat up two heroic people, tortured them and tried to murder a child (and would have followed that with the population of the entire world.) Raditz was a poo poo.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:51
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Piccolo was hardly heroic at that point
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Mar 23, 2015 16:55
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Imperfect Cell terrified me as a kid and he still terrifies me now
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Mar 23, 2015 16:56
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