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I couldn't find it either but as a consolation prize here's Haldir complaining about Galadriel's poncy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiPydBlHce4 (I can no longer unsee Claudius Glaber whenever I see Craig Parker in FotR or TTT; images from Spartacus just come crashing in.)
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Feb 18, 2015 02:55
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Sheikh Djibouti posted:(I can no longer unsee Claudius Glaber whenever I see Craig Parker in FotR or TTT; images from Spartacus just come crashing in.) I just finished season three a few hours ago, and through it all I couldn't unsee him from being a very nice Elf bro. 
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Feb 18, 2015 05:09
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I would love to know more about how Tolkein created the map of Middle Earth. Did he get any help in creating it?
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Mar 11, 2015 19:19
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Probs; if you can get your hands on Atlas of Middle Earth or whatever it's called it even talks about fault lines and poo poo and it's cool.
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Mar 11, 2015 19:31
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I went ahead and ordered the Atlas of Middle Earth from Amazon. I should get Saturday. Meanwhile I got two questions. 1) Why does Saruman adopt "The White Hand" as his symbol? 2) In the film Saruman's staff is modeled after the peak of Orthanc, but did Tolkein ever give a description of the staff? Because if Peter Jackson came up with the design on his own, I like to imagine that only his knowledge of really bad movies stopped him from putting a hand on top of Saruman's staff.
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Mar 12, 2015 19:28
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He is saruman the White and the Wizards are the "Hand" of the Valar in middle earth. There is no explanation given in The Two Towers as far as I can find, so that's the closest Id imagine there is. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 12, 2015 |
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Mar 12, 2015 19:45
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SirPhoebos posted:Because if Peter Jackson came up with the design on his own, I like to imagine that only his knowledge of really bad movies stopped him from putting a hand on top of Saruman's staff. That would have been amazing, thank you. 
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Mar 12, 2015 20:45
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UoI posted:That would have been amazing, thank you. There's no accounting for (bad) taste.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:21
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SirPhoebos posted:Because if Peter Jackson came up with the design on his own, I like to imagine that only his knowledge of really bad movies stopped him from putting a hand on top of Saruman's staff. Hey now, French kings had a thing like that, as shown on the right here:  It represented the right of the king to administer justice and the hand on top is white (usually made of ivory). Fits pretty well with Saruman's attempt to become a power of his own. And it's not that goofy looking But for real, the wizards' staves are probably all meant to look really plain, like Gandalf's. They're not suppose to attract attention, after all.
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Mar 12, 2015 22:42
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Kassad posted:Hey now, French kings had a thing like that, as shown on the right here: I'm guessing though that when Jackson was brainstorming, if the idea 'hand on top of staff' came up, he immediately thought: 
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Mar 13, 2015 01:24
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SirPhoebos posted:I went ahead and ordered the Atlas of Middle Earth from Amazon. I should get Saturday. Meanwhile I got two questions. I'm guessing it has to do with the Roman/fascist salute given Saruman's ambitions.
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Mar 14, 2015 01:09
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Effectronica posted:I'm guessing it has to do with the Roman/fascist salute given Saruman's ambitions. *it's not just Tolkien who mistrusts those smart-rear end techies. Or maybe some inspiration from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hand_of_Ulster though I can't think what.
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Mar 14, 2015 10:55
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Beyond the side note they get in the Silmarillion - has any work been devoted towards fleshing out the Blue Wizards Alatar, and Pallando? Tolkein himself did not seem to know what do to with them (saying on one occasion that they turned to evil, and on another that they may have played a role in limiting the East's role in the War of the Ring) but I was curious if perhaps his son has expanded upon them.
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Mar 14, 2015 20:07
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I hope not! Also I don't think so. They went bye bye in the east.
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Mar 14, 2015 20:10
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I have a question; I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Silmarillion (and I'm loving it!) and I'm wondering if Tolkien ever goes into more details regarding Elvish procreation. I'm not trying to get too gross here, but they mention a lot about genealogy and who is the son of who, but it always seems like they are talking about adults. Are there Elvish children? How does an immortal race make babies? Do the elves just happen to have a super quick childhood/adolescence phase very quickly then they are basically young-adults? Or do Elves spring from their mother's loins fully formed? Is Elvish childbirth painful like with humans? Like I said, I'm not trying to get too gross, but reading about all the Elf family trees makes me curious.
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Mar 21, 2015 05:08
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I have been wondering this for years and I have no idea why I haven't Googled or asked this question. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elven_Life_cycle According to this: quote:Elves are born about one year from their conception. The day of their conception is celebrated, not the actual birthday itself—since for them, life begins at conception. Their minds develop quicker than their bodies; by their first year, they can speak, walk and even dance, and their quicker onset of mental maturity makes young Elves seem older than they actually are. Physical puberty comes in around their fiftieth to one hundredth year (by age fifty they reach their adult height), and by their first hundred years of life outside the womb all Elves are fully grown. So it's pretty much what I expected. Mommy and Daddy have sex, baby takes a couple decades to mature, lives forever.
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Mar 21, 2015 05:37
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King of Foolians posted:I have a question; I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Silmarillion (and I'm loving it!) and I'm wondering if Tolkien ever goes into more details regarding Elvish procreation. I'm not trying to get too gross here, but they mention a lot about genealogy and who is the son of who, but it always seems like they are talking about adults. Are there Elvish children? How does an immortal race make babies? Do the elves just happen to have a super quick childhood/adolescence phase very quickly then they are basically young-adults? Or do Elves spring from their mother's loins fully formed? Is Elvish childbirth painful like with humans? Elves also lose interest in sex and having more children as they grow older which explains why they didn't completely overrun Middle Earth.
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Mar 21, 2015 05:48
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bartlebyshop posted:Elves also lose interest in sex and having more children as they grow older which explains why they didn't completely overrun Middle Earth.
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Mar 21, 2015 09:20
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UoI posted:I have been wondering this for years and I have no idea why I haven't Googled or asked this question. They also have sex rarely enough that they can date conception with accuracy, which is, uh, interesting.
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Mar 21, 2015 15:27
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Nessus posted:They also only knock boots in times of peace and safety and were, as I recall, really monogamous. I think like one elf couple divorced and there was one other remarriage in the entire Silmarillion elf-cycle. Finwe and Miriel "divorced" because she was unwilling to return to life. He would never see her again, so he got permission to remarry Indis. In Catholicism, marriage lasts only until one of the partners dies, but Tolkien was uncomfortable with remarriage after a death and wrote long justifications for why (and Finwe's remarriage causes the strife between Feanor and his half-brothers and most of the elf-on-elf violence in the Silmarillion).
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Mar 21, 2015 23:23
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Effectronica posted:They also have sex rarely enough that they can date conception with accuracy, which is, uh, interesting. Well this makes all my fanfiction inaccurate.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:05
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Feanor's obsession with the silmarils causes the strife, not some catholic family law drama.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:23
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euphronius posted:Feanor's obsession with the silmarils causes the strife, not some catholic family law drama. Sure but he probably would have got on a lot better with Fingolfin if they hadn't had different moms.
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Mar 22, 2015 04:49
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euphronius posted:Feanor's obsession with the silmarils causes the strife, not some catholic family law drama. Without his daddy/mommy/brother issues and nothing else changed, Feanor doesn't burn the ships and has the whole host of the Noldor to face Morgoth in the Second Battle (and doesn't murder one of his own children, going by the last Silmarillion material!) Most likely, though, he never makes the Silmarils without that strife and the Trees survive, so in that sense there would have never been that unique beauty without the strife. There is nothing anyone can do in Middle-Earth that does not redound to the greater glory of Eru.
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Mar 22, 2015 05:40
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euphronius posted:Feanor's obsession with the silmarils causes the strife, not some catholic family law drama. I think the reference was to this: The Silmarillion posted:The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves. Beyond that, Melkor convinced the Noldor in general, and (indirectly) Feanor in particular, that they were in essence being held in Valinor, leading to Fingolfin's complaining to Finwe, the confrontation immediately thereafter with Feanor and the banishment. Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 07:27
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Reviewing Book II, Chapter 2: Many Meetings I just came across a point that I feel deserves discussing. When debating how to dispose of the ring, it is mentioned that it might be sent into the West, into Valinor. This course of action is dismissed as "for better or worse, it belongs in Middle Earth." But does it really? Setting aside the literal: that ring was in fact made in Middle Earth, it was forged by Sauron - a "wanted man" as it were by the Valar for escaping punishment following the War of Wrath, and a spirit who is not native to that land.
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Mar 23, 2015 00:17
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If I remember that passage correctly they also mention that the Ring would be sent back or otherwise refused by those powers. The justification is that because the Ring was made to bind the powers of Middle Earth and create dominion over all free people of that land then it was their problem since they were the ones in hot water. There are probably plenty of theological justifications for this but these are the same Valar that forcibly moved a bunch of elves to Valinor for their """""""protection""""""" which IMO kicked off the entire conflict in the first place. So 1) the Valar are shitheads and 2) they're trying to learn their lesson and not meddle in the affairs of the Children of Eru, because the last time they did that the elves ended up violently murdering each other and giving the Valar the middle finger as they ran away in their stupid duck boats.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:06
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Ok Feanor's half family was like a proximate cause. Fine.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:33
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I'm on Shelob's Lair and got my own creepy fantasy-creature-reproduction question. The book says that the Spiders of Mirkwood and Dol Guldur are her offspring, calling them 'bastard spawn.' But if Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant, then who or what was her mate? Also, I get the implication that after interrogating Gollum, Sauron dumped him in Shelob's lair since the book says He typically does that with prisoners he has no further use of. This also would fit with Sméagol's 'sincere insistence' (at least from Frodo's judgment) that he escaped rather than be released. So why didn't Shelob eat him? Was it because he was a scrawny cave creature that would have been a net loss of calories to eat? Was Sméagol just that craven he could beg off a giant loving spider? Both?
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Mar 23, 2015 15:21
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You can go even farther back and ask who was Ungoliants mate? We don't even know where Ungoliant came from or what she was(Maia? Goldberry-like "spirit"?). She was able to intimidate Morgoth, though. Shelob let Gollum go because he promised/was able to lure back more prey for her, he's a slippery little bugger and I'm sure Orcs loved to chase him.
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Mar 23, 2015 15:31
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Pong Daddy posted:You can go even farther back and ask who was Ungoliants mate? We don't even know where Ungoliant came from or what she was(Maia? Goldberry-like "spirit"?). She was able to intimidate Morgoth, though. I can't source my information, but I recall being told that Ungoliant was borne of the Void as a result of Melkor's discord at the beginning of time. In such an event, she has no parent in the traditional sense.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:52
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There's also a line somewhere saying she descended from outside Arda, basically putting her from deep space. No idea how she procreated though.
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Mar 23, 2015 16:57
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I'm sure if one monstrous entity was formed from nothing then another one could. Like the watcher in the water, where did that come from WHO KNOWS!
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Mar 23, 2015 17:55
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And to be perfectly honest I prefer the frequent uncertainty in Middle Earth than the situation in Star Wars, where every little detail has a minimum 50,000 word backstory.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:28
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Whenever the Steven Erickson / Malazan thread gets uppity we should remind them that we have Space Spiders.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:35
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If i remember my Lost Tales right, when the Valar sauntered over to Valinor for the first time, they didn't explore it all the way. There were parts of it they never went to. Melkor did go exploring and found Ungoliant in some cave. Now why an evil spider-form creature would be in Valinor I have no idea.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:39
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The Silmarillion just says that the elves thought "in the beginning she was one of those that [Melkor] corrupted to his service", i.e., one of the Maiar of the song who followed Melkor's theme instead of Illuvatar's. As far as spider sex is concerned, it says: quote:[F]leeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:44
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SirPhoebos posted:And to be perfectly honest I prefer the frequent uncertainty in Middle Earth than the situation in Star Wars, where every little detail has a minimum 50,000 word backstory. RPG company I.C.E. put out a cubic fuckton of supplements detailing anything and everything to do with Middle Earth for their Middle Earth Role Playing Game back in the 1980 and 90s, but they've all been out of print for years now. They and their system were the  company you could imagine, making for one of the most dissonant connections you could imagine between the beautiful world and the table after table to critical hit charts to let you know exactly where and how the arrow landed in the guy's eye. How canon RPG supplements are is in the eye of the beholder. Some are neat fanfiction about single lines Tolkien jotted down, some are... fanfiction, to put it charitably.ICE lost the license in 1997, and there's no way they'll ever get it back.
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Mar 23, 2015 21:43
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Sounds like they had a good time.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:07
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SirPhoebos posted:I'm on Shelob's Lair and got my own creepy fantasy-creature-reproduction question. The book says that the Spiders of Mirkwood and Dol Guldur are her offspring, calling them 'bastard spawn.' But if Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant, then who or what was her mate? Sauron did have a use for Gollum, though. Sauron didn't know where or what "Shire" or "Baggins" were, exactly, and Gollum was one of his best chances of finding out.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:10
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