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The problem is that Vicky is three different games pasted onto each other and none of them works particularly well or is easy to understand and influence. I do think that imperialism, industrialization, and political reform should all be in the game in some way or another but making the politics and economics more abstracted wouldn't be a terrible idea.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:36
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StashAugustine posted:The problem is that Vicky is three different games pasted onto each other and none of them works particularly well or is easy to understand and influence. I do think that imperialism, industrialization, and political reform should all be in the game in some way or another but making the politics and economics more abstracted wouldn't be a terrible idea. The problem is that V2's approach to features focuses too much on simulation where it should be focusing on what you actually want those features to add to gameplay. That doesn't mean you need to rip out those features anymore than Distant Worlds having tedious colonization means you should rip colonization out of Space 4x games.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:41
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Alchenar posted:Vicky isn't a game that needs to get more complicated. It's already about too many things which the player can only marginally interact with and very much needs a 'back to basics' blank slate reboot. My vote is strip out all the Pop and most of the economic stuff and focus on the actually fun bit of the game - ie. Imperialism between Great Powers. I completely disagree. I think that the Industrialization and modernization aspect of V2 is the most important and interesting part. I find that I tend to make my imperialism and war decisions based on the economic needs of my chosen country; the industrialization path that I choose directs the war and diplomacy. Now, I do agree that the politics part of it is pretty dull, since it's quite linear and there's not a lot of flexibility in the decisions, and elections are pretty opaque and out of the control of the player. They should replace it with a "skill tree" system like they have for HOI4. But in my opinion, the demographics and economic part of it is the most important part, and should be what leads the player to make decisions.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:43
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Wiz posted:The problem is that V2's approach to features focuses too much on simulation where it should be focusing on what you actually want those features to add to gameplay. That doesn't mean you need to rip out those features anymore than Distant Worlds having tedious colonization means you should rip colonization out of Space 4x games. I think Paradox have been going in a very positive direction in the last few years, and when I've seen whether Hearts of Iron 4 lives up to the new standards I'll be very excited to see what you lot do with a Vicky 3. On the other hand you could invest some of that sweet, sweet Skylines money into making a space 4X of your own *hint hint, nudge nudge*.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:51
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I mean, the execution isn't perfect, but if you strip out POPs, economics, industrialization, etc., Victoria stops being Victoria. It'd be like streamlining CK2 by removing feudal relations, or something-- it's one of the key things, both mechanically and thematically, that defines its niche within Paradox games.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:58
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Imperialism is possibly my favourite non-Paradox strategy game ever and if V3 took some cues from it I would be a pretty happy dude!
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Mar 23, 2015 18:48
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Alchenar posted:Vicky isn't a game that needs to get more complicated. It's already about too many things which the player can only marginally interact with and very much needs a 'back to basics' blank slate reboot. My vote is strip out all the Pop and most of the economic stuff and focus on the actually fun bit of the game - ie. Imperialism between Great Powers. I find the economic stuff a lot more engaging than the imperialism, and as a matter of fact I find that my imperialism is almost always informed by my economic situation ("Man, I'm starting to REALLY need oil, time to sphere/invade the Middle East!") Imperialism without economic aspects is pretty much just dick-waving for the sake of dick-waving, which gets pretty pointless quickly.
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Mar 23, 2015 19:04
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Kavak posted:Go into the German domestic files and remove the "oneaction = yes" lines from the recovery events, that'll let you cut down on dissent without reloading. Try to go to war with someone small and far away, and use the extra IC to push down dissent. Also get the 1.6.1 hotfix if you haven't. Could you post a link to the hotfix...also, will my 1.6 save be compatible?
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Mar 23, 2015 19:58
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Demiurge4 posted:On the other hand you could invest some of that sweet, sweet Skylines money into making a space 4X of your own *hint hint, nudge nudge*. I can't even begin to tell you how sad it makes that apparently Paradox tried to bid on the Master of Orion license but were outbid by some company that makes multiplayer free-to-play tank games. God knows what they'll do to MOO. 
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Mar 23, 2015 20:02
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What can they do to the franchise that MOO 3 hasn't?
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Mar 23, 2015 20:08
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Fintilgin posted:I can't even begin to tell you how sad it makes that apparently Paradox tried to bid on the Master of Orion license but were outbid by some company that makes multiplayer free-to-play tank games. God knows what they'll do to MOO. Wait WHAT?!?
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Mar 23, 2015 20:09
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Bort Bortles posted:Wait WHAT?!? http://www.pcgamesn.com/total-annihilation-sequel-may-be-works-wargaming-now-own-ip-and-chris-taylor-studio quote:Total Annihilation wasn’t the only IP to have been sold off, though. Wargaming also picked up the civilization-like Master of Orion franchise. Don't have a quote for Paradox bidding, but I believe one of them said here or on their forums that they were outbid on MOO. to the power of
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Mar 23, 2015 20:18
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 Wonder what that post Johan won't make will be about.  Oh wiz. 
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Mar 23, 2015 21:18
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Tomn posted:I find the economic stuff a lot more engaging than the imperialism, and as a matter of fact I find that my imperialism is almost always informed by my economic situation ("Man, I'm starting to REALLY need oil, time to sphere/invade the Middle East!") Imperialism without economic aspects is pretty much just dick-waving for the sake of dick-waving, which gets pretty pointless quickly. Conquest is always driven by economics. Tribals are raiding each other for goods. Empires are conquering peoples for slaves, taxes, and land. By the CK2 era, land and its bound serfs became the key factor of production, and war was fought over the right to own the two. By EU4 serfs were becoming less tied to the land. Land was still valuable, but production of goods and resources and the right to tax them became more important. Along with that was colonization. Now wars were fought over the right to colonize, trade disputes, and land with valuable resources. You see this continue into Vicky's era. Certain key resources became the most important economic goods. Who hasn't fought a war in Vicky to secure that source of sulfur to make sure you can keep making gunpowder? It's even more obvious by HOI era, when Japan is invading SE Asia for oil and Germany is looking eastward for the same. I think industrialization, markets, and resource exploitation are the core themes of Victoria, all of which drive imperialism and conquest. I wouldn't be opposed to streamlining the gameplay elements around them to make them more meaningful, but I absolutely think they're the core gameplay of Victoria.
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Mar 23, 2015 21:31
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The longest requested feature for the EU series that I can think of is either internal management, dynastic management, or something to do with army flanks or otherwise an overhaul of the combat system. It's not going to be any of these so I don't know what the gently caress!
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Mar 23, 2015 22:22
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Kaiserreich question: The AEG (german puppets in china) just got embroiled in a civil war with republic of china that sprang up and started gobbling them up. How do I intervene? they are my puppets! Don't touch them!
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Mar 23, 2015 22:32
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RabidWeasel posted:The longest requested feature for the EU series that I can think of is either internal management, dynastic management, or something to do with army flanks or otherwise an overhaul of the combat system. It's not going to be any of these so I don't know what the gently caress! NATO counters, obviously.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:39
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Rincewind posted:NATO counters, obviously. This would make me unironically very happy.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:23
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Affi posted:Kaiserreich question: The AEG (german puppets in china) just got embroiled in a civil war with republic of china that sprang up and started gobbling them up. How do I intervene? they are my puppets! Don't touch them! Declare war? I think you guarantee their independence automatically. Also, hotfix is in first post here, not sure if its compatible: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?529944-Kaiserreich
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Mar 23, 2015 23:31
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Fintilgin posted:I can't even begin to tell you how sad it makes that apparently Paradox tried to bid on the Master of Orion license but were outbid by some company that makes multiplayer free-to-play tank games. God knows what they'll do to MOO. Bort Bortles posted:Wait WHAT?!? T___A fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 23:39
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DrSunshine posted:Honestly it would give revolutionary movements a fighting chance if, rather than having to capture the capitol and hold it for x months, they would actually become a separate nation, complete with economy and government -- much like the way CK2 does it with rebellions. Any territory occupied by rebels for a certain time would go over to them and produce resources for them, bringing with it the concomitant factories, resources, POPs and so on. This is an excellent idea, and would be pretty representative of actual history (all the weird little states that popped up as the Russian Empire centrifuged apart, and Imperial Germany collapsed). The way something like that could be structured gameplay wise would be: any state that's fully occupied by a rebel group gets auto-released as its own nation with cores on the rest of the nation (and sub-nation, if its part of a releasable component like say, Bavaria), with both it and its former parent getting infamy-free casus belli on each other. Adjacent-states occupied by revolutionaries of the same type could get auto-annexed to the new state, enabling them to gobble up territory if the central government is unable to put down the revolts fast enough. Of course, this would probably require revolutions to be more rare than current, otherwise it'd just become a giant pain in the rear end (imagine having to re-fight the American Civil War on an annual basis). CharlieFoxtrot posted:Well, if you look at it from a Marxist perspective, the awkwardness comes from gaming both sides of the dialectic -- you end up playing the role of the "spirit of history" both on a metagame mechanical level and knowing the trajectory of history that led to the society in which you are playing the game. Being that kind of abstract consciousness works in an abstract game like Civ, but in Vicky things are too specific for that to really work. Disagree on this; the player is quite clearly representing the upper class of the nation, the only thing that changes is what that upper class is supposedly composed of. Second, the whole "trajectory of history" isn't a guaranteed thing. A lot of complaining about pops and reform in this thread is apparently that its too hard to turn your nation into a socialist paradise, which historically is quite accurate. I mean, hell, it took massive external pressure on Russia for the monarchy to collapse, and even then the communists had to hijack the revolution for their own purposes. Four empires collapse in one war and only one of them even turned communist. It shouldn't be easy to reform, and quite frankly the whole accelerationist approach to the game is min-maxing. Honestly if people are taking the whole "I should be a complete tyrant to piss off my population so I can cram through all the reforms I want as fast as possible" approach, then you should just let the fascists win given the flexibility that the ideology provides the player (and cool flags). Oberleutnant posted:I really think a Vicky 3 where you play explicitly as a single chosen political party or ideology would be interesting. When in power you'd be playing essentially the same way you do n existing games, but when out of power you'd be more of a disembodied idea trying to spread influence and provoke events to weaken the existing government in whatever ways suit your strategy. You could have two players in multiplayer playing the same country simultaneously, with one player causing trouble to try and oust the other player. Problem is that this would basically be Democracy 4: Victoria, and introduces a lot of issues like how to handle late-game ideologies like fascism. It also introduces the problem that the AI is pretty retarded, and no one is going to like playing a game where they have to helplessly watch when they get sidelined into the Opposition by the AI which then goes and takes on the rest of Europe in some crisis and gets its poo poo stomped in. Alchenar posted:Vicky isn't a game that needs to get more complicated. It's already about too many things which the player can only marginally interact with and very much needs a 'back to basics' blank slate reboot. My vote is strip out all the Pop and most of the economic stuff and focus on the actually fun bit of the game - ie. Imperialism between Great Powers. This is an even more terrible idea and I think if anyone wants that they'd just go play Total War instead, I'm sure it'll get around to a full 19th century game eventually.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:50
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Victoria II is unique with the focus it has on internal transformation. Remove that, you've gutted the game.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:56
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Chief Savage Man posted:Victoria II is unique with the focus it has on internal transformation. Remove that, you've gutted the game.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:06
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Vernii posted:It shouldn't be easy to reform, and quite frankly the whole accelerationist approach to the game is min-maxing. I agree! Reform SHOULD be difficult. It SHOULD be a long, hard struggle, reflecting the difficulties of history. Peaceful reform in particular should be a triumph, the long-desired payoff of cunning strategy, shrewd maneuver, and hard work! But here's the problem: Let's say you sit down with the goal of making your country a socialist utopia (or a liberal utopia, or a fascist one, etc.), because you enjoy that. What exactly can you do in V2 to make that happen? Option 1: Wait. Eventually, over time, far in the future, there will eventually be enough of your chosen party in a bad enough condition to push through reform, assuming you or someone else doesn't do something to cause another party or another issue to push to the fore. Option 2: Encourage party loyalties, which is to say press a button and wait. Option 3: Unintuitive, gamey, min-maxy accelerationist bullshit. The issue here isn't that it's too hard to reform, the problem is that there's no interesting or sensible way to reform. If your goal is to conquer as much of Europe as possible, you can engage in a constant dance of march and counter-march and technological improvement to triumph over your enemies. If your goal is to industrialize, you can jiggle tax rates and invest in factories and sphere/annex useful countries and what have you. You can, in short, do something that makes sense and is fun to see such goals come to fruition. But when it comes to political reform? Either you sit around on your fundament, or you do weird gamey poo poo. That is not a good place for a game to be in. Tomn fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 00:13
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Affi posted:Kaiserreich question: The AEG (german puppets in china) just got embroiled in a civil war with republic of china that sprang up and started gobbling them up. How do I intervene? they are my puppets! Don't touch them! Actually got an event after they got annexed. Busy ferrying troops to china to fight a pointless war overseas. How come my singapore fleet is locked in port?
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Mar 24, 2015 00:29
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Affi posted:Actually got an event after they got annexed. Busy ferrying troops to china to fight a pointless war overseas. You need the hotfix, it fixes that.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:32
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Fintilgin posted:I can't even begin to tell you how sad it makes that apparently Paradox tried to bid on the Master of Orion license but were outbid by some company that makes multiplayer free-to-play tank games. God knows what they'll do to MOO. Paradox even bidded for the Homeworld IP when THQ blew up. They got outbid by Gearbox so it seems like 
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Mar 24, 2015 02:14
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RabidWeasel posted:The longest requested feature for the EU series that I can think of is either internal management, dynastic management, or something to do with army flanks or otherwise an overhaul of the combat system. It's not going to be any of these so I don't know what the gently caress! It's secret bears, obviously.
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Mar 24, 2015 11:53
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Wiz posted:It's secret bears, obviously. Jan Mayen focused expansion confirmed.
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Mar 24, 2015 14:11
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Dynamic and historically accurate borders in the Balkan.
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Mar 24, 2015 15:31
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Jeoh posted:Dynamic and historically accurate borders in the Balkan. MY SERBIA.
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Mar 24, 2015 16:34
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Wiz posted:This is a terrible idea. much like not finishing the Azeri LP 
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Mar 24, 2015 16:52
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The Humble Store has a big Paradox sale for mid-week going on, in case anyone's missing any DLC or something. https://www.humblebundle.com/store/promo/paradoxmidweek/
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Mar 24, 2015 21:53
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Drone posted:The Humble Store has a big Paradox sale for mid-week going on, in case anyone's missing any DLC or something. Cool, thanks. Finally picked up Charlemagne for cheap.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:27
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Addendum to the "women in the military in DH/KR" thing from a few pages back: This is how you do manpower.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:58
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Kaiserreich: Just had Alsace or war trigger. I was almost ready for it. Another six months and I would've had three more carriers. Another year and a half twenty more heavy cruisers. But my airforce is decent and my ground troops are well upgraded and with brigades. (Mostly medium tanks) (Sue me I like them) I have six armoured divisions and six motorised. France has maybe twice my number of divisions. So far it's been trench warfare. I'm breaking them down in the middle and they are rolling through Flanders but my eastern allies are sending their divisions there so it should stabilise. I thought I'd rule the seas with my three large fleets and a few smaller fleets. Sixty decent to good ships in total. Then Britain joins and I had to tuck my tail I between my legs and hunker down in the Baltic. (Jesus fourteen carriers against my three) (and a load of battleships and crap) The med is mine with ottomans and kingdom of Spain on my side. Probably going To use ottoman troops to take syndicalist Italy. With some help from my well blooded marines. Spain will have to pull a lot of weight to take pressure off my front but I will win this unless more countries interfere. Wish Austria would join on my side though. What is next then? I win and what? Are there events for the rest of the timeline? China is unified. They diploannexed aeg and the legation cities without me being able to do anything about it. They might be a future problem. Canada is quiet. Will they do anything? USA won the civil war. Will they interfere with me?
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Mar 25, 2015 12:19
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There aren't a lot of events after The Big One is finished, sorry. Austria will only jump in if you start losing really badly. Canada should declare war soon, hopefully not on you. USA will do nothing, even if it's in the Entente.
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Mar 25, 2015 12:25
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Usually once the big event-caused war is done, the onus is on the player to make their next content. China unified, so go after them. If the Austrian Ausgleich wars turned out poorly for little Austria, throw your power around in the Balkans to restore their territories. After beating France, you can either put a new German puppet king on the throne there (with a sweet rear end flag), balkanise France, or turn it over to National France with the caveat that they join Mitteleuropa. Then invade Union of Britain and do similar (though I prefer balkanising Britain into Scotland/England/Wales). Or just stop after you win that war, declare it a fun learning experience, and then pick a new country to start over. France is a good challenge as a second game. UoB can be fun but to me feels a bit bland. Japan is great, Russia is great.
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Mar 25, 2015 12:37
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Gamerofthegame posted:How so? It's true in modern politics. People become more and more aware of an issue, they get mad about it and pressure the state into solving it. People who are ignorant of the issue exert no pressure and something probably won't be done about it because, well, it's not really an issue then. Class consciousness drives change yes, but there's no mechanic in V2 where people over time, for example as they become more educated or as certain philosophical techs are discovered, become more and more aware of the exploitation and injustice inherent in slavery, feudalism and for that matter capitalism. If there'd be a constant and increasing pressure mounted by the working class of your country to enact reforms and they can only be placated so much, and furthermore the more well-developed and advanced your country gets the more this pressure exerts itself you'd have a plausible and engaging system driving these reforms. Basically if you wanted to stay an absolute monarchy you better pull a Russia and keep your peasant class uneducated and repressed. Unfortunately for you that means you inevitably start to lag behind in industrial output and military and that might just lead to massive consequences.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:04
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Orange Devil posted:Class consciousness drives change yes, but there's no mechanic in V2 where people over time, for example as they become more educated or as certain philosophical techs are discovered, become more and more aware of the exploitation and injustice inherent in slavery, feudalism and for that matter capitalism. If there'd be a constant and increasing pressure mounted by the working class of your country to enact reforms and they can only be placated so much, and furthermore the more well-developed and advanced your country gets the more this pressure exerts itself you'd have a plausible and engaging system driving these reforms. Basically if you wanted to stay an absolute monarchy you better pull a Russia and keep your peasant class uneducated and repressed. Unfortunately for you that means you inevitably start to lag behind in industrial output and military and that might just lead to massive consequences. Isn't that how it works in V2? More education and plurality -> more consciousness -> more desire for reform because half your loving population turned Liberal during the Revolution/Springtime -> either be forced to pass billions of reforms or get Jacobin rebellions up the loving rear end. Or you pass reforms and get Jacobin rebellions up the rear end regardless because you have a conservative party and the Jacobin don't like that.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:10
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