Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Deteriorata posted:

The "Dorian invasion" was contemporaneous with the Sea Peoples invasions, so there's a natural connection made between the two. It seems improbable to me that the end of the Mycenaean civilization and the Sea Peoples are unrelated.

Along with the collapse of Mycenaean Greece, the Hittites in Anatolia were wiped out, the Assyrians were nearly so, and the Egyptians were severely weakened. Something momentous happened in the Eastern Mediterranean about 1250-1200 BC, but there aren't very good records as to just what it was all about. This is just about the time iron smelting was discovered, as well, which is also probably related to it all.

Some of the Sea Peoples were certainly Greeks, possibly Mycenaean refugees. The Philistines, for example, were originally Sea Peoples who were bought off by the Egyptians with land, and their culture shows very distinct Greek influence.

Oh yeah. I'm reading Thucydides now, and his intro to Greek history seems to be completely unaware of the Bronze age collapse. It goes "wandering tribes - villages - cities - Troy (historical truefact) - Hellas". Is the collapse something that we only rediscovered due to relatively recent archaeological evidence?

...

In other news, goddamn is reading the Peloponnesian War a chore at times. I'm kinda reminded of RotK, with all the needless "Mlitidades, son of Pausanius" (who is apparently far more interesting than the Horrible Histories version) details. When JC writes about Miles Gloriousus and Gluttius Maximus the centurions, the two are generally going to have some relevant part to play in the upcoming action, and aren't just there as a part of long list to be forgotten immediately.

The movie is better

. Seriously, it's an abridged best part version that leaves out all the needless blather.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:47

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# ? May 28, 2024 03:46

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Dave Angel posted:

Greek fire can't melt marble beams.

NOVA TITVLVM FILVM

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:50

Agean90: Jun 28, 2008

Thanks Agamemnon.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:54

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

No blood for Black Sea access!

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:56

Rockopolis: Dec 21, 2012; I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird

Bah, I still think Caesar was killed by a bowman firing from the Campus Martius.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 16:30

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Thermopylae was an inside job.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 16:36

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

The "Plague" of Athens was caused by a lack of fresh fruit and excercise.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 18:45

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

They reported the Library of Alexandria had been burned down before it happened!

# ? Mar 24, 2015 21:49

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Jerusalem posted:

They reported the Library of Alexandria had been burned down before it happened!

Did you really think a bunch of desert-dwelling religious fundamentalists could manage that? It was an inside job.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 22:02

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Jews destroyed the second temple

# ? Mar 24, 2015 23:49

ColtMcAsskick: Nov 7, 2010

Xander77 posted:

Oh yeah. I'm reading Thucydides now, and his intro to Greek history seems to be completely unaware of the Bronze age collapse. It goes "wandering tribes - villages - cities - Troy (historical truefact) - Hellas". Is the collapse something that we only rediscovered due to relatively recent archaeological evidence?

...

In other news, goddamn is reading the Peloponnesian War a chore at times. I'm kinda reminded of RotK, with all the needless "Mlitidades, son of Pausanius" (who is apparently far more interesting than the Horrible Histories version) details. When JC writes about Miles Gloriousus and Gluttius Maximus the centurions, the two are generally going to have some relevant part to play in the upcoming action, and aren't just there as a part of long list to be forgotten immediately.

The movie is better . Seriously, it's an abridged best part version that leaves out all the needless blather.

Thucydides is pretty notorious for being a dry read. He even admits it at the start. I do kind of wish that he pulled a Herodotus and started to talk about wacky poo poo in digressions though. We know he's able to make stuff exciting when push comes to shove (i.e: the Melian Dialogue) but it is too few and far between for my tastes.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 02:34

Modest Mao: Feb 11, 2011; by Cyrano4747

Oberleutnant posted:

Jews destroyed the second temple

lol

# ? Mar 25, 2015 05:31

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

So, question - if you were a provincial who was invited to visit a distant relative living in Rome (say about just after Augustus died), how would you find his house? Were there street names, street numbers, street signs, logical layouts, maps worth a drat, a system of guides, or anything of the sort? For that matter, if someone were to send a letter from Rome to someone living in a city in, say, Gaul, how would you make sure that the letter got into the right hands?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 06:01

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

I can't say anything about how (other than the usual - good infrastructure and organisation) but there was a big hoard of personal correspondence dug up (possibly a legionary fort?) in britain and they were mostly the most mundane poo poo imaginable. Invitations to birthday parties, requestsfor new underwear from back home, etc.
It implies that whatever mail network there was was reliable, cheapish, and extensive in the area that it covered.

communism bitch fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Mar 25, 2015

# ? Mar 25, 2015 07:17

Cast_No_Shadow: Jun 8, 2010; The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

I have no idea how the postal system worked in rome but two logical guesses are very small leaps in logic to envisage happening.

Either the town is small enough you can just ask "Hey where does joe bloggius live?" Or the addressing may have to narrow it down some "Biggus dickius, near to the forum, Rome" or maybe there were just local collection points set up. So you send a letter to "Lundiunium postal collection" and marcus smithius walks down and asks if they have anything for him now and then.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 07:51

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Oberleutnant posted:

I can't say anything about how (other than the usual - good infrastructure and organisation) but there was a big hoard of personal correspondence dug up (possibly a legionary fort?) in britain and they were mostly the most mundane poo poo imaginable. Invitations to birthday parties, requestsfor new underwear from back home, etc.
It implies that whatever mail network there was was reliable, cheapish, and extensive in the area that it covered.

You're thinking Vindolanda, a fort on Hadrian's Wall. The mundane is actually a pretty awesome discovery for this period, where we have a lot less idea of how the masses lived than we do the aristocracy. It even includes the first Latin text written by a woman.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 12:09

Zopotantor: Feb 24, 2013; ...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...

Obliterati posted:

You're thinking Vindolanda, a fort on Hadrian's Wall. The mundane is actually a pretty awesome discovery for this period, where we have a lot less idea of how the masses lived than we do the aristocracy. It even includes the first Latin text written by a woman.

My favorite is number 628.

Masclus posted:

ceruesam commilitones non habunt quam rogo iubeas mitti

I hope he got his beer. :hist101:

# ? Mar 25, 2015 20:39

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Obliterati posted:

You're thinking Vindolanda, a fort on Hadrian's Wall. The mundane is actually a pretty awesome discovery for this period, where we have a lot less idea of how the masses lived than we do the aristocracy. It even includes the first Latin text written by a woman.

Oh yeah I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense. I work in archives and my most cherished collections are Victorian correspondence we call the "Begging Letters" that are just poor people writing to request assistance, and they're incredibly eye-opening with regard to all the little difficulties and tragedies that people face on a daily basis. Slice of life insights into how average Joe lived are the most interesting, to me.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 21:12

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

1. More Thucydides: everyone seems to be really poo poo at siegework, compared to JC's guys (centuries later and in another country altogether, yeah). Who originated the changes and when? It isn't that long until Alexander can turn an island into a peninsula, right? Who innovates things to the point that the Romans can fornicate all over the battle field overnight?

2. Is that a particularly Roman trait, anyways? I mean, obviously I just referenced the Macedonians, but is there something specific about the Romans that allowed them to be incredibly effective at siegecraft? Why is that anyways? They don't seem to value scientific inquiry all that much, and all their teachers are Greeks - you'd think that would be the place for military and engineering innovations.

Kinda sad that Total War doesn't have an emphasis on Roman fortification / counter-fortification ability. Wonder if the second Rome:TW fixes that.

3. Huh. Horse archers. (Edit - Thucy mentions some guys using them, obviously) Don't think of the ancient Greeks as having a lot of those. Odd. Didn't the thread mention earlier that the whole area isn't exactly horse archer country?

4. What does the colonization process consist of? Are the settlers picked, do they volunteer, what do they owe to the motherland?

5. The commentary seems to imply that neither side could ever hope to properly control Hellas, as the Spartans were too set in their ways (see the gradual erosion in the number of proper Spartans and their refusal to change the Helot situation) while the Athenians were too inconstant and flighty. Reasonable y/n?

6. More importantly from my perspective, outside the Persian threat, was there an intellectual movement to think of all of Greece as a single entity that could be governed as one for a common purpose? Or would it have to have been an outside invasion unifying them by force, whether through resistance or subjugation?

7. How did the Romans graduate from a single Polis enforcing its will on a bunch of other client states / colonies, into a somewhat unified Republic that was more than the sum of its parts? Just the Social wars?

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 25, 2015

# ? Mar 25, 2015 21:47

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Xander77 posted:

1. More Thucy: everyone seems to be really poo poo at siegework, compared to JC's guys (centuries later and in another country altogether, yeah). Who originated the changes and when? It isn't that long until Alexander can turn an island into a peninsula, right? Who innovates things to the point that the Romans can fornicate all over the battle field overnight?

2. Is that a particularly Roman trait, anyways? I mean, obviously I just referenced the Macedonians, but is there something specific about the Romans that allowed them to be incredibly effective at siegecraft? Why is that anyways? They don't seem to value scientific inquiry all that much, and all their teachers are Greeks - you'd think that would be the place for military and engineering innovations.

Kinda sad that Total War doesn't have an emphasis on Roman fortification / counter-fortification ability. Wonder if the second Rome:TW fixes that.

3. Huh. Horse archers. Don't think of the ancient Greeks as having a lot of those. Odd. Didn't the thread mention earlier that the whole area isn't exactly horse archer country?

4. What does the colonization process consist of? Are the settlers picked, do they volunteer, what do they owe to the motherland?

5. The commentary seems to imply that neither side could ever hope to properly control Hellas, as the Spartans were too set in their ways (see the gradual erosion in the number of proper Spartans and their refusal to change the Helot situation) while the Athenians were too inconstant and flighty. Reasonable y/n?

6. More importantly from my perspective, outside the Persian threat, was there an intellectual movement to think of all of Greece as a single entity that could be governed as one for a common purpose? Or would it have to have been an outside invasion unifying them by force, whether through resistance or subjugation?

7. How did the Romans graduate from a single Polis enforcing its will on a bunch of other client states / colonies, into a somewhat unified Republic that was more than the sum of its parts? Just the Social wars?

What do you mean by "Huh. Horse archers"?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 22:19

the JJ: Mar 31, 2011

Xander77 posted:

1. More Thucydides: everyone seems to be really poo poo at siegework, compared to JC's guys (centuries later and in another country altogether, yeah). Who originated the changes and when? It isn't that long until Alexander can turn an island into a peninsula, right? Who innovates things to the point that the Romans can fornicate all over the battle field overnight?

I mean, aside from every city being surrounded by walls? Walls and counterwalls and countercounterwalls at Syracuse? The whole thing kicking off with a siege at Platea? I mean, they weren't storming the walls with catapults or anything like that but it's a big facet of the fighting.

e: Pylos and Syracuse, probably the two most important battles Thucy goes over, both involve walls being built and being very pivotal.

quote:

4. What does the colonization process consist of? Are the settlers picked, do they volunteer, what do they owe to the motherland?

thewholestartofthewar.txt. Seriously, Corinth sends folk off to Corcyra, Corcyra start to see themselves as their own thing, send out their own settlers, who start to see themselves as their own thing, those dudes petition to Corinth to take them in, Corcyra complains that Corinth is messing with their colony which shouldn't be allowed to do it's own thing. Corinth levels the same blame at Corcyra, starts to beat the war drums. Corcyra, previously neutral, appeals to Athens for help, Corinth tells Sparta to poo poo or get off the pot. The Melians from the dialogue, again, settlers from Sparta who opt to stay loyal rather than turn and are genocided for their temerity.

quote:

5. The commentary seems to imply that neither side could ever hope to properly control Hellas, as the Spartans were too set in their ways (see the gradual erosion in the number of proper Spartans and their refusal to change the Helot situation) while the Athenians were too inconstant and flighty. Reasonable y/n?

Athens didn't have the land power to force the Spartans to surrender, Sparta couldn't beat the Athenians at sea. Every summer the Spartans would roll in and burn the Athenian crops, and the Athenians would just bring in poo poo by sea. Ergo the war begins to center on the proxy fights. Persia plays both sides because gently caress those guys until Cyrus gets his consolation governorship and takes a liking to Lysander. Suddenly Sparta has Persian gold and can win at sea. They proceed to run Hellas for at least a little while before Thebes rolls them.

But yeah, one of Thucy's themes is 'the Spartans were too cautious to take risk that would have let them win, the Athenians liked to gamble big on long odds and then get really cocky.'

quote:

6. More importantly from my perspective, outside the Persian threat, was there an intellectual movement to think of all of Greece as a single entity that could be governed as one for a common purpose? Or would it have to have been an outside invasion unifying them by force, whether through resistance or subjugation?

I mean, as above the Persian threat could easily be a Persian ally to one or the other group.

quote:

7. How did the Romans graduate from a single Polis enforcing its will on a bunch of other client states / colonies, into a somewhat unified Republic that was more than the sum of its parts? Just the Social wars?

Not really my wheel house.

the JJ fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Mar 26, 2015

# ? Mar 25, 2015 23:51

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Xander77 posted:

Is there a reason you're linking terrible songs in the punctuation of your posts?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 00:30

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

the JJ posted:

I mean, aside from every city being surrounded by walls? Walls and counterwalls and countercounterwalls at Syracuse? The whole thing kicking off with a siege at Platea? I mean, they weren't storming the walls with catapults or anything like that but it's a big facet of the fighting.

e: Pylos and Syracuse, probably the two most important battles Thucy goes over, both involve walls being built and being very pivotal.

Yeah, I gathered. What I mean is - when JC and crew encounter a walled city, their first reaction is "how do we siege that poo poo". Alexander runs into some dinky island thinking it's hot poo poo, and his reaction is "au contraire mon frere, I am the hottest poo poo in these parts". These guys go "my god, that's a bloody WALL that is. What mortal can possibly hope to defeat a wall?. They mostly manage to take walled cities if someone opens the gates. What changes over the coming centuries and how?

Oh hey - Palatea is the kind of thing I'm thinking about. Up to that point, everything is like "they tried to take the city, but the walls got in the way" or "they got some engines to siege the city, but what match are those for a freaking wall, brother?"

quote:

thewholestartofthewar.txt.

I'm wondering how the process works. The Athenians are kicking out some locals of doubtful loyalty and sending their own settlers instead - how do the settlers get picked, what are their oaths and obligations, etc.

Do we have some idea as to what the plague that struck Athens was? Sounds a bit like the Black Death to me, but I'm not exactly an expert.

Huh. So referring to the Persian ruler merely as "the King" with the capital is not a particular quirk of Xenophon (or his translators). Was that their view of the worlds - Hellas in one corner, Medes in the other, various barbarian trash around the edges?

Did the Persian empire think of the Greeks as their "rivals" and whatnot? I can make some guess about classical and revisionist historiography of the subject (complete support for the Greek perspective following Alexander's conquest at first, "the Greeks were just a bunch of poor squabbling city states compared for the might of the empire" later... y/n?), but you don't mount several expeditions against and keep trying to stir civil strife among totally harmless barbarians you don't care about?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 10:37

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Ras Het posted:

Is there a reason you're linking terrible songs in the punctuation of your posts?

It's his gimmick. He always does it.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 10:41

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Oberleutnant posted:

Oh yeah I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense. I work in archives and my most cherished collections are Victorian correspondence we call the "Begging Letters" that are just poor people writing to request assistance, and they're incredibly eye-opening with regard to all the little difficulties and tragedies that people face on a daily basis. Slice of life insights into how average Joe lived are the most interesting, to me.

Yeah, I just thought I'd mention it explicitly because it's my favourite thing about the site as well. There's never enough of this stuff. These letters of yours aren't digitised, by any chance?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 10:51

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Xander77 posted:

Did the Persian empire think of the Greeks as their "rivals" and whatnot? I can make some guess about classical and revisionist historiography of the subject (complete support for the Greek perspective following Alexander's conquest at first, "the Greeks were just a bunch of poor squabbling city states compared for the might of the empire" later... y/n?), but you don't mount several expeditions against and keep trying to stir civil strife among totally harmless barbarians you don't care about?

You're saying this as if the US and NATO didn't spend more than a decade trying to occupy Afghanistan.

Real answer: The Greek city states stopped being seen as harmless when they supported a revolt by the Greek cities in Asia Minor and took part in an attack on Sardis, the provincial capital of Asia Minor. It's very similar to the way the Taliban weren't really on the USA's shitlist before 9/11.

Kassad fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Mar 26, 2015

# ? Mar 26, 2015 11:15

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

I thought the Dorian invasion of Greece was a fairly well-established fact. I learned that some of them continued on through central Europe, and a small group made their way to Ireland. Thus, the "Doran" clan in south-central Ireland. "Doran" still means "stranger", which seems appropriate.

Is this just etymology gone wrong?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 16:50

the JJ: Mar 31, 2011

Xander77 posted:

Yeah, I gathered. What I mean is - when JC and crew encounter a walled city, their first reaction is "how do we siege that poo poo". Alexander runs into some dinky island thinking it's hot poo poo, and his reaction is "au contraire mon frere, I am the hottest poo poo in these parts". These guys go "my god, that's a bloody WALL that is. What mortal can possibly hope to defeat a wall?. They mostly manage to take walled cities if someone opens the gates. What changes over the coming centuries and how?

Oh hey - Palatea is the kind of thing I'm thinking about. Up to that point, everything is like "they tried to take the city, but the walls got in the way" or "they got some engines to siege the city, but what match are those for a freaking wall, brother?"

I mean, JC's big wall moment where he rolled up to Alesia and went "you know what we need? A wall around the wall! And then a wall around that!" Which is exactly what happened at Plataea. The reason people built walls is because they worked, and for most of human history that's where the balance of power has been. Ask Heygal or look at the 100 Years Ago today.

quote:

Huh. So referring to the Persian ruler merely as "the King" with the capital is not a particular quirk of Xenophon (or his translators). Was that their view of the worlds - Hellas in one corner, Medes in the other, various barbarian trash around the edges?

Did the Persian empire think of the Greeks as their "rivals" and whatnot? I can make some guess about classical and revisionist historiography of the subject (complete support for the Greek perspective following Alexander's conquest at first, "the Greeks were just a bunch of poor squabbling city states compared for the might of the empire" later... y/n?), but you don't mount several expeditions against and keep trying to stir civil strife among totally harmless barbarians you don't care about?

I don't think they rated the Greeks so highly as that. Nor really themselves that highly. It was the King and his entourage, then everyone else. They were happy to promote Greeks to rule over Egyptians or Armenians over Greeks. Politics and ethnicity weren't really as intertwined as they are today, it was often a lot more personal. Again, the Persians end up swinging for the Spartans mostly based off Lysander and Cyrus' personal bond.

I don't think they saw the Greeks are their big rivals (in part because they knew the Greeks weren't united as such) if the King wasn't mounting an expedition against Greece he was putting down a revolt in Egypt, or thrashing some foreigners to the East, or having a civil war with his brother. The whole 'play the Greeks off each other' wasn't something the ruler personally oversaw. Pharnabazus and Tissaphernes, the big governors on Anatolia, basically made that call because, among other things, that meant that the Greeks would stop dicking with their fiefs.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 16:54

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Ynglaur posted:

I learned that some of them continued on through central Europe, and a small group made their way to Ireland. Thus, the "Doran" clan in south-central Ireland. "Doran" still means "stranger", which seems appropriate.

Is this just etymology gone wrong?

That's complete nonsense.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 17:02

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Ynglaur posted:

I thought the Dorian invasion of Greece was a fairly well-established fact. I learned that some of them continued on through central Europe, and a small group made their way to Ireland. Thus, the "Doran" clan in south-central Ireland. "Doran" still means "stranger", which seems appropriate.

Is this just etymology gone wrong?

There are some words that end up looking alike by coincidence (this is why English cleave is its own antonym, for example). Dorian > Doran sounds like a pseudoetymology, like when people see "god" and "good" and figure they must totally be related because they're just one letter apart.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 17:11

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

homullus posted:

There are some words that end up looking alike by coincidence (this is why English cleave is its own antonym, for example). Dorian > Doran sounds like a pseudoetymology, like when people see "god" and "good" and figure they must totally be related because they're just one letter apart.

English "much" and Spanish "mucho" have completely different etymologies. Same with "island" and "isla" (which aren't even pronounced similarly but classicists are idiots and came up with the spelling). There's an Australian language where the word for dog is "dog".

# ? Mar 26, 2015 17:31

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Ras Het posted:

There's an Australian language where the word for dog is "dog".

This may be the best thing I have learned this week.

Edit: Found it.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 18:10

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Ras Het posted:

English "much" and Spanish "mucho" have completely different etymologies. Same with "island" and "isla" (which aren't even pronounced similarly but classicists are idiots and came up with the spelling). There's an Australian language where the word for dog is "dog".

And now I know that isle and island have completely different root words.

A pretty cool article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_cognate

# ? Mar 26, 2015 18:49

physeter: Jan 24, 2006; high five, more dead than alive

Xander77 posted:

1. More Thucydides: everyone seems to be really poo poo at siegework, compared to JC's guys (centuries later and in another country altogether, yeah). Who originated the changes and when? It isn't that long until Alexander can turn an island into a peninsula, right? Who innovates things to the point that the Romans can fornicate all over the battle field overnight?

2. Is that a particularly Roman trait, anyways? I mean, obviously I just referenced the Macedonians, but is there something specific about the Romans that allowed them to be incredibly effective at siegecraft? Why is that anyways? They don't seem to value scientific inquiry all that much, and all their teachers are Greeks - you'd think that would be the place for military and engineering innovations.

My current speculation is that this knowledge was kept by slaves and freedmen. The timing works. The Romans don't siege for poo poo until the mid-Punic Wars. Non-coincidentally, that's also when they've started integrating large amounts of Greeks into the republic. Every legion had a support staff of slaves and freedmen for various non-combat tasks. I think maybe they captured some Greek sappers (probably Syracusan) and put them into the baggage train. These sappers then started teaching the Romans some real siege engineering. Fast forward a couple hundred years and you've got Caesar's army in Gaul. It also neatly solves my own private mystery of the missing Roman military academies. Centurion casualties were too high to trust them to hold on to the information, so the evolution of a group of freedmen who kept the knowledge and passed it on to others makes perfect sense. They would also have been mobile with the army, solving a massive logistical problem. And lastly, it fits well with Roman social structure, which had zero problem outsourcing intellectual poo poo to other people, particularly Greeks.

I'm not saying it was as easy & simple as I've presented it, but I suspect that's what they did, if for lack of any better explanation.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 20:36

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

Which countries were the best to visit ancient ruins aside Italy or Greece? The ones on the eastern Adriatic coast such as Croatia, right?

# ? Mar 26, 2015 20:38