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forbidden lesbian posted:you should stop listening to the beatles because they make bad music This is the most offensive thing in the thread.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Yes, but that's an actual plagiarization which is prosecutable by law. You can't copyright a sound, or a method of doing things. But if Jimmy Page passed himself off as a authentic bluesman from Tupelo... Popular Thug Drink posted:Even at their worst, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones weren't prancing about in blackface. This seems like an incredibly narrow definition of appropriation. If cultural appropriation only means literally wearing blackface or running around pretending to be japanese, it isn't an issue. Katy Perry wasn't pretending to be Japanese in her skit. The problem is that all the examples I gave actually were cultural appropriation. The Mikado is practically a textbook case, it was literally "lol, japanese people are weird and funny", 1880's version. It included direct elements of Japanese music etc. It also is probably Gilbert and Sullivan's single greatest work, both in terms of lyrics and music. Bridge of Birds is literally a white American dude just taking all his favorite Chinese myths and rearranging them into a new story, with Chinese protagonists and with many direct statements about what "China" is and was, symbolically. It's also a fantastic book that deservedly won the world fantasy award. The Wind-up Girl won Nebula and Hugo awards for best novel. It's also specifically been called out by (apparently?) ethnic-thai-origin SF writers as being an example of cultural appropriation (see: the whole controversy with Requires Only That You Hate: "Paolo Bacigalupi’s THE WIND-UP GIRL is exotifying, yellow-fever, offensive claptrap.") Rolling Stones, Led Zeppellin, Beatles, all billed themselves explicitly and bragged about drawing on American blues artists and in fact often got sued for literal plagiarism by those same American blues artists. How is that not appropriation? It's just appropriation so extreme as to be actionable. The problem is that all of those are works of artistic genius and the world would be a much poorer place if they were gone or had not been created. It's easy to dismiss some jerk getting a tribal tattoo, but what do you do when it's an actual work of genius? You can't. That's the real issue here. Sometimes cultural appropriation turns out to be awesome. It's not all bad. On the one hand in some cases cultural appropriation can be legitimately offensive and depressing; on the other, sometimes it's an element in creating great works of art. Like copyright, it's a double-edged sword. Oh, hell, Tolkien based his Dwarvish languages on Hebrew. Effectronica posted:
I don't think that''s the case though? Like, I've seen people say they didn't like Bridge of Birds for that reason. Cultural appropriation is a real thing and a valid concept but it just seems to me like one issue that has to be weighed in the balance vs. everything else. forbidden lesbian posted:you should stop listening to the beatles because they make bad music Yesterday, I had not read this post nevermind that joke sounded better in my head it doesn't even fit the meter Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:50
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What's worse, appropriating an oppressed person's culture so that others outside that culture mis perceive it, or convincing an oppressed person that their culture is toxic and should be radically changed? Say what you will about Katy perry, at least she didn't foment the cultural revolution.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:53
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Effectronica posted:Look, you're convinced that there's a conspiracy afoot to prevent you from listening to Miles Davis, and I sure as hell can't convince you otherwise rationally, so... Nah, I'm not beholden to other people doing things I don't like, so I listen to miles davis and led zeppelin with a clear and free conscience. Some people apparently have a problem with it, and so I'm trying to figure out why.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:54
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think that''s the case though? Like, I've seen people say they didn't like Bridge of Birds for that reason. Cultural appropriation is a real thing and a valid concept but it just seems to me like one issue that has to be weighed in the balance vs. everything else. I said a priori for a reason. People can consider it appropriating after experience with it, sure, and that's potentially valid, just like with Bacigalupi's novel. Powercrazy posted:Nah, I'm not beholden to other people doing things I don't like, so I listen to miles davis and led zeppelin with a clear and free conscience. Some people apparently have a problem with it, and so I'm trying to figure out why. Who are these people. Name them.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:57
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JeffersonClay posted:What's worse, appropriating an oppressed person's culture so that others outside that culture mis perceive it, or convincing an oppressed person that their culture is toxic and should be radically changed? Whats worse, Katy Perry, or gassing the jews? I'll hang up for my answer thanks and god bless.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:57
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Is there a difference between the ideas of transculturation and cultural appropriation besides one having a neutral and the other having a negative connotation due to power imbalance?
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Mar 25, 2015 18:58
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My guess would be that no, one is just an outgrowth of the other in a particular sociopolitical situation: cultural appropriation naturally occurs with transculturation between two groups' cultures meeting so long as one group has unequal power over the levers of cultural transmission (esp. control and access to media and policy), as the dominant group will try to appropriate anything, material or cultural, and then reinforce a narrative that that is the way things have always been. Therefore remedies to prevent such a thing shouldn't be on the symptom of the problem ('don't mix cultures', as some extreme proponents may imply with policing of any possible transculturation regardless of context. I'm not pointing to anyone itt as 'extreme proponents' btw.) but on the cause, aka fixing power imbalance between cultural groups through transfers of material wealth and proportional political representation
Rodatose fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 19:01
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Cultural appropriation is cool and should happen as much as possible with no regard for "respecting" anyone.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:03
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dogcrash truther posted:Cultural appropriation is cool and should happen as much as possible with no regard for "respecting" anyone. There's this one episode of the Hugh Laurie / Steven fry Jeeves and Wooster BBC series where Hugh Laurie wears blackface That episode should never have happened edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxUvK3-HFsM Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 19:04
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dogcrash truther posted:Cultural appropriation is cool and should happen as much as possible with no regard for "respecting" anyone. Agreed, let's ignore what the word "appropriation" means because we can't tell the difference between liking J-Rock and insisting that paying a con man ten thousand dollars for an hour in a smoke-filled sauna is authentic Indian religion.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This seems like an incredibly narrow definition of appropriation. If cultural appropriation only means literally wearing blackface or running around pretending to be japanese, it isn't an issue. Katy Perry wasn't pretending to be Japanese in her skit. So, you'd rather Led Zeppelin hadn't made any music?
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Mar 25, 2015 19:05
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Is blackface cultural appropriation?
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Mar 25, 2015 19:07
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dogcrash truther posted:Cultural appropriation is cool and should happen as much as possible with no regard for "respecting" anyone. your avatar reminds me that smoking is cool and should happen as much as possible with no regard for respecting the 'no smoking within 25 feet of the building' law of the local applebe's
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Mar 25, 2015 19:08
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Except only smoking tobacco. weed is bad and whack.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:09
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Armyman25 posted:So, you'd rather Led Zeppelin hadn't made any music? They should have only written songs based on country music instead. Clearly.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:12
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Zeitgueist posted:Whats worse, Katy Perry, or gassing the jews? I'll hang up for my answer thanks and god bless. Yes, the implication was that if cultural appropriation via commodification is bad, then cultural self-destruction via Marxism is much worse.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:12
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Effectronica posted:Who are these people. Name them. The people who are concerned with cultural appropriation. You and the OP for example.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:12
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Armyman25 posted:So, you'd rather Led Zeppelin hadn't made any music? "Tom Sawyer" was their only good song. The rest - the world could have done without. And don't even say anything about The Wall being groundbreaking, the whole album was overblown and pretentious.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:13
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Powercrazy posted:The people who are concerned with cultural appropriation. You and the OP for example. Can you provide an example, within or without this thread, of me saying those things that you are attributing to me, or at least provide an example of your reasoning so I can get a diagnosis for you?
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Mar 25, 2015 19:13
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Powercrazy posted:Nah, I'm not beholden to other people doing things I don't like, so I listen to miles davis and led zeppelin with a clear and free conscience. Some people apparently have a problem with it, and so I'm trying to figure out why. Knowing and acknowledging Led Zepplin's artistic influences and being aware of the likelihood that When The Levee Breaks is a hit song because this R&B song was performed by white people, and enjoying said music don't have to be mutually exclusive. However, you've set up an amazing false dichotomy. Powercrazy posted:Agreed, we should keep Whites and PoC separated. We need to name and shame these race-mixers and ensure their respective cultures remain pure. By the way I'm a liberal. Perhaps to avoid introspection and other intellectually rigorous tasks? Reality is extremely complex. I am petty sure Plant and Paige weren't meeting at a shadowy altar planning to get famous off of the musical experimentation of a disadvantaged group, and the people who perused Led Zepplin probably weren't doing so to stick a middle finger at black R&B musicians for not being born white. Zep made music they like and the fans listened to music they like. The problem isn't Zep's success, but examining the societal factors that may have been at play in making these lily-white Brits financially successful at performing a musical style that had previously been performed by financially-hindered black people. The problem isn't that you like these things, the problem is that, when asked to question if these things are bad, you lose your loving mind. Powercrazy posted:I am against cultural appropriation because we must secure the existence of our people and a future for Jesus Christ man. Reality is extremely complex. What does "Chinese food" even mean to a person like me, from Kentucky? It's a large geographic region that has had numerous societal shifts and realignments over history. And here I am dipping an egg roll in sweet and sour sauce and cracking open a fortune cookie. How much of that is just based on misconception of what a Chinese meal would entail, and how much is based on advertising designed to hit the appeal to the exotic? Your response to the question is to call me a Nazi. That's the problem. You aren't even willing to entertain this question.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:27
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JeffersonClay posted:What's worse, appropriating an oppressed person's culture so that others outside that culture mis perceive it, or convincing an oppressed person that their culture is toxic and should be radically changed? Yup, nothing has ever been so murderous and abominable as the communist campaign against human culture. Real people died, in numbers never before seen and, one can hope, never to be seen again. I know from our privileged and comfortable lives it can seem abstract, but it was your friends and loved ones, your mothers and your children that communism killed. There isn't any difference, all men are brothers. That's why this hand wringing about so called "cultural appropriation" is so obscene. There is one culture, and it is human culture. If some individuals don't know enough to understand and accept that, we should pity them, but never take them seriously. The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:29
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Perhaps, in an attempt to better understand what Cultural Appropriation is, we should attempt to view it through a legal lens? Can it have a legal definition, and is it something that governments should be legislating against? Should the state seek to monitor and facilitate the interaction of cultures in an attempt to protect the integrity of the more marginalised cultures, in a similar way that it has used Race Discrimination Legislation such as the Race Relations Act, to protect the material and bodily integrity of marginalised individuals? For example, could the state promote cultural affirmative action by establishing a tax (the proceeds going to duly nominated representatives or representative bodies of the marginalised culture in question) that dominant culture Artists, Advertisers, Product Designers and such, would be obliged to pay when using cultural imports in their products for financial gain?
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Mar 25, 2015 19:32
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hakimashou posted:Yup, nothing has ever been so murderous and abominable as the communist campaign against human culture. Real people died, in numbers never before seen and, one can hope, never to be seen again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJQQgQIg-D8
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Mar 25, 2015 19:32
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, the implication was that if cultural appropriation via commodification is bad, then cultural self-destruction via Marxism is much worse. Wow, hoisted on the red petard. Turns out white people don't have to worry about appropriation, you've figured it out.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:40
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hakimashou posted:Yup, nothing has ever been so murderous and abominable as the communist campaign against human culture. Real people died, in numbers never before seen and, one can hope, never to be seen again. How dare you diminish the tortuous deaths that my ancestors faced via religious persecution my implying that modern era deaths are the only important thing. Disgusting, you make me sick.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:42
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hakimashou posted:That's why this hand wringing about so called "cultural appropriation" is so obscene. There is one culture, and it is human culture. This is a very beautiful and poignant idea, but it doesn't have much bearing on the idea of pancakes and bacon being just "food" while a taco is "Mexican food", as though it is a distinct and fundamentally different unit that is advertised, presented, and consumed as such. Meanwhile, fortune cookies fail to take hold in China for being too American. If there is only one culture, it sure is hell isn't acting cohesive. We still treat our human brothers and our shared human experiences like novelty items based on geographic region.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:44
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I do not believe that a singular, overarching "culture of humanity" is possible or even desirable.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:49
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:This is a very beautiful and poignant idea, but it doesn't have much bearing on the idea of pancakes and bacon being just "food" while a taco is "Mexican food", as though it is a distinct and fundamentally different unit that is advertised, presented, and consumed as such. It is possible to argue that individually, any given person within what is considered a unified cultural brand, will probably find a great deal of novelty even within that culture. We don't all consume all aspects of what might be called our own culture, so that isn't apparently a requirement for the labeling of a cohesive culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:50
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paranoid randroid posted:I do not believe that a singular, overarching "culture of humanity" is possible or even desirable.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:52
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paranoid randroid posted:I do not believe that a singular, overarching "culture of humanity" is possible or even desirable. It's OK, the human mono culture will definitely be a beautiful tapestry of the human experience and not whatever culture currently is in power overwhelming anything else. Stop talking about racism you're causing division. 
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Mar 25, 2015 19:52
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:This is a very beautiful and poignant idea, but it doesn't have much bearing on the idea of pancakes and bacon being just "food" while a taco is "Mexican food", as though it is a distinct and fundamentally different unit that is advertised, presented, and consumed as such. I still think of jägerschnitzel as "nazi food". Even their salted pommes frites make me think of concentration camps. quote:Meanwhile, fortune cookies fail to take hold in China for being too American. If there is only one culture, it sure is hell isn't acting cohesive. We still treat our human brothers and our shared human experiences like novelty items based on geographic region. If there wasn't some form of motivation that exists to cause people to do things like that, the problem would just go away on its own. Perhaps if we did the Star Trek thing and abolished all money, things would be better. Of course, eventually we would have to start using gold pressed latinum (because how else would we conduct business with the Ferengi space jews?), but it's the thought that counts. Jakcson fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 19:52
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twodot posted:I don't understand how you define culture such that there isn't by definition a culture of humanity. All cultures can be arbitrarily subdivided. Well I suppose that there are certain mores that can be generalized across all cultures, and as such form the barest skeleton of a general human culture. But this is hardly the basis of a strong, binding culture. It'd be like expecting people to share an identity based on having a nose, or thumbs. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 19:56
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Rodatose posted:Is there a difference between the ideas of transculturation and cultural appropriation besides one having a neutral and the other having a negative connotation due to power imbalance?
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Mar 25, 2015 19:59
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paranoid randroid posted:Well I suppose that there are certain mores that can be generalized across all cultures, and as such form the barest skeleton of a general human culture. But this is hardly the basis of a strong, binding culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 20:01
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Is it cultural appropriation if I where a sari because I think it looks beautiful, not because I'm trying to "celebrate" Indian culture? What if I'm wearing a thawb because it's supremely comfortable in the heat and not because I care in any way about Arab culture?
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Mar 25, 2015 20:03
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unlimited shrimp posted:Is it cultural appropriation if I where a sari because I think it looks beautiful, not because I'm trying to "celebrate" Indian culture? I dunno, cultural appropriation is impossible to understand there is no literature on the subject. 
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Mar 25, 2015 20:04
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Zeitgueist posted:I dunno, cultural appropriation is impossible to understand there is no literature on the subject.
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Mar 25, 2015 20:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:What are your recommendations for literature on the subject? How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
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Mar 25, 2015 20:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:What are your recommendations for literature on the subject? 'Das Kapital', volumes 1, 2, and 3, by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
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Mar 25, 2015 20:09
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