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ManifunkDestiny posted:Pilot leaves the cockpit for a piss after the plane reaches cruising altitude, co-pilot croaks and in his death sends the plane into a gentle descent where it plows into an alp. Surely the greater probability is it was deliberate. See e.g. Silkair. e:  
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Mar 26, 2015 08:01
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What was the age of the copilot? The likelihood of him dying in that short span of time is very low especially if he is under 50 years old.
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Mar 26, 2015 08:08
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Unless he was somehow keeping the plane at altitude by sheer vitality, it would have continued at cruise altitude if he suddenly died. Apparently the A320's door lock system has three positions, one of which disables the outside controls. Obviously this points to a suicidal pilot deciding to crash the plane and kill everyone on board. I am really hoping someone official can deny this soon, but it's not looking good so far.
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Mar 26, 2015 08:45
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Frinkahedron posted:A320 manual says there is a keypad: Looking at the manual there is a remote deadbolt switch on the cockpit upper console that will override the keypad for a preset amount of time. 
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Mar 26, 2015 08:53
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it's obviously a blackhole just like malaysia airlines.
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Mar 26, 2015 08:59
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I've read elsewhere that it is SOP that when a pilot leaves a flight attendant enters the cockpit so that there are always two people in there. C/D?
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Mar 26, 2015 09:31
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Ola posted:Obviously this points to a suicidal pilot deciding to crash the plane and kill everyone on board. I am really hoping someone official can deny this soon, but it's not looking good so far. They should have known something was up when the PIC turned up dressed as Brünnhilde.
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Mar 26, 2015 10:42
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An FDR/CVR generally consists of two basic components: the data processing/integration unit, which is hardened, but generally not crash-survivable, and the Crash Survivable Memory Unit. The CSMU contains all recorded data, and is the attachment point for all location devices, such as sonar pingers, RF beacons, etc, and their batteries. The CSMU derives power from the other half of the unit, and stops recording when aircraft power is lost. (Generally supplied by the emergency DC bus. If you're down to that, and you lose it, generally, the airplane just hit the ground, anyway.) The two components come as an assembled (PMA'ed, serialized, inspected,) unit, and though configurations vary between airframe manufacturer, customer, and equipment manufacturer, they all generally fit into a rack mount in the act end of the aircraft. They are also generally, but not always, not something that you can get to in flight. The airframes I worked on (DC-10-30/MD-11) required the aft bottom deck cargo door to be open to get access, since they were installed in the door frame plug area. This is going to vary wildly between aircraft, as well. The important bit is that the CSMU is really the only part that you need to recover to read data, and that the FDR/CVR wouldn't have been installed without one. Would. Not. Happen. It was on the aircraft, but apparently hasn't been found yet.
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Mar 26, 2015 11:34
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MrYenko posted:The two components come as an assembled (PMA'ed, serialized, inspected,) unit, and though configurations vary between airframe manufacturer, customer, and equipment manufacturer, they all generally fit into a rack mount in the act end of the aircraft. They are also generally, but not always, not something that you can get to in flight. The airframes I worked on (DC-10-30/MD-11) required the aft bottom deck cargo door to be open to get access, since they were installed in the door frame plug area. This is going to vary wildly between aircraft, as well. For an example of variation from this: our Embraer E-jets have combined digital voice/data recorders instead of separate CVRs and FDRs. There are still two units but both units record both sets of information. One is at the front of the aircraft, one is at the back. I guess you could just about get to the aft one in flight, if you removed half the contents of the galley to get to the access panel, unscrewed it and crawled through. The forward one is accessed from outside the aircraft. (Basically agreeing with MrYenko with a specific example.)
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Mar 26, 2015 11:49
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MrYenko posted:An FDR/CVR generally consists of two basic components: the data processing/integration unit, which is hardened, but generally not crash-survivable, and the Crash Survivable Memory Unit. The CSMU contains all recorded data, and is the attachment point for all location devices, such as sonar pingers, RF beacons, etc, and their batteries. The CSMU derives power from the other half of the unit, and stops recording when aircraft power is lost. (Generally supplied by the emergency DC bus. If you're down to that, and you lose it, generally, the airplane just hit the ground, anyway.) (also in reply to Ola) In the photo of the CVR from the crash, the memory is inside that orange domed cylinder that is pretty much intact. It is like a mini fireproof safe, and there's no way to physically get that memory out without cutting that thing to pieces, which is what the playback/investigation center will be in the process of. Any news agency suggesting that the 'memory card might be missing' has about as much understanding of how these things work as when Derek and Hansel are told "the files are inside the computer" in zoolander. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 11:59
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Ola posted:Unless he was somehow keeping the plane at altitude by sheer vitality, it would have continued at cruise altitude if he suddenly died. Apparently the A320's door lock system has three positions, one of which disables the outside controls. On this type of system from that Royal Jordanian manual, the pilots can deny access with that switch. There will be an emergency override code that will open the lock in case of no response from the pilots (ie unconscious, unresponsive) for a few seconds to allow access. That too can be overridden by the pilots if they are conscious and responsive, but will require them to physically select "lock" every time the emergency access code is entered. There would also be a lot of loud beeping (designed to wake up a pilot when the code is entered). All that said, the door may also have a physical deadbolt that can be actuated from inside in case of failure of the electric lock system.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:06
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Grim Up North posted:I've read elsewhere that it is SOP that when a pilot leaves a flight attendant enters the cockpit so that there are always two people in there. C/D? Generally, yes.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:07
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Linedance posted:(also in reply to Ola) The "missing memory card" came from the FDR though. Apparently the source is Hollande himself and everyone is reporting this: quote:Confusion surrounded the fate of the second black box. French President Francois Hollande said the casing of the flight data recorder had been found in the scattered debris, but was missing the memory card that captures 25 hours' worth of information on the position and condition of almost every major part in a plane. Jouty refused to confirm the discovery. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/germanwings-flight-4u9525-pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit-before-crash-new-york-times-reports-1.3008432 Could be that something got lost in translation as the ravenous journalists tear at every scrap they can get, at one point the French "the CVR recording will allow us to hear any voices, noises or alarms" was translated by the press as "we have heard voices, noises and alarms".
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Mar 26, 2015 12:23
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Ola posted:The "missing memory card" came from the FDR though. Apparently the source is Hollande himself and everyone is reporting this: Ah right, similar sort of idea though. Though in that case the cover might have been found but not the guts of the FDR. The guts containing the memory, which then gets translated and described by people used to things like an SD card in a camera as "the memory card" *caveat, there may also be a SAR (smart access recorder), a recorder that records the same data as the FDR on a PCMCIA card for use by maintenance and engineering. It may be possible that Mr. Hollande was told that they found that but there was no card inside, and that was what got reported as the FDR. Finger Prince fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 12:41
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Live press conference here now: http://www.france24.com/en/ No FDR has been found. He's going through the CVR transcript now.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:42
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Ola posted:Obviously this points to a suicidal pilot deciding to crash the plane and kill everyone on board. I am really hoping someone official can deny this soon, but it's not looking good so far. Maybe, would be hella sad. Meanwhile, Dagbladet has an expert (leader of the norwegian pilot's association) saying that it's "completely unlikely" that the pilot/copilot would have knocked to gain entry into the cockpit, because that's "not how it's done". I can attribute that to probably terrible and leading questions from the reporter, as this expert was probably referring to key/keypad entry. But he goes on to say something about how he can't comment on security procedures and how pilots communicate and whatnot. So - speculation on suicide aside - can the knocking only be explained as: "what the gently caress why am I locked out of my cockpit?" If this is drat near the only reason, I can't fault people for thinking suicidal pilot, but how often is that a thing that happens? That's completely sick! Why would you want to kill every living soul on the plane if you're planning to off yourself? That would take an utter monster, how many of those could possibly be flying an airplane?
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Mar 26, 2015 12:44
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loving hell, the NY Times were right. Officially confirmed now. Captain left cockpit, co-pilot then turned the altitude selector. Captain asked to be let in over intercom. They could hear the co-pilot breathing all the way down.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:45
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Nice piece of fish posted:Maybe, would be hella sad. Meanwhile, Dagbladet has an expert (leader of the norwegian pilot's association) saying that it's "completely unlikely" that the pilot/copilot would have knocked to gain entry into the cockpit, because that's "not how it's done". Pilot suicides happen, EgyptAir 990 comes to mind: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptair_990 The supposed motive there was that the relief first officer had just been demoted by an executive that was on that flight. There's a list of similar incidents at the bottom of the wikipedia article. hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 12:53
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Nice piece of fish posted:That would take an utter monster. An utter monster who would have his own Wikipedia page for all time detailing how he made his horrible mark on the world. We're in an age where people feel smaller and smaller by the day, with most people using social media to scream out ad nauseam at existence hoping someone yells back that they matter. The wonder is in how there aren't more people each day running their car at speed into a crowded sidewalk or similar things just to, even at the cost of their freedom and/or lives, feel the rush of 'trending globally' or know that their name, even cursed posthumously, will be spoken in their aftermath.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:04
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Ola posted:Holy poo poo if it's true, holy poo poo the NY Times is dead if it isn't. No they aren't/wouldn't be. If you haven't noticed, The Media™ is wholly unaccountable for a good small handful of years now. BIG HEADLINE posted:I also think CNN latches onto plane crash stories because they secretly hate their viewership, who are usually just about to board airplanes. They no-joke see a decent ratings bump each time this happens hence why they go balls deep everything something lawn darts. It's gross but it's also  for them.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:04
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Duke Chin posted:No they aren't/wouldn't be. If you haven't noticed, The Media™ is wholly unaccountable for a good small handful of years now. In this case they deserve praise. The story has been officially confirmed.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:05
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Happy days ahead for the family of this copilot, the whole world now knowing his full name and the town where he was from. Awesome.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:10
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Does anyone have a recording of the Press Conference? Google is just giving me poo poo.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:24
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So when are we going back to three person cockpits?
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Mar 26, 2015 13:26
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dietcokefiend posted:So when are we going back to three person cockpits? Airlines won't pay for it.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:28
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Ola posted:loving hell, the NY Times were right. Officially confirmed now. Captain left cockpit, co-pilot then turned the altitude selector. Captain asked to be let in over intercom. They could hear the co-pilot breathing all the way down. Holy poo poo. Those poor people 
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Mar 26, 2015 13:28
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AP said that the pilot accelerated while descending? loving A.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:29
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Bondematt posted:Does anyone have a recording of the Press Conference? Google is just giving me poo poo. Here's a summary at least: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525 quote:-The co-pilot of the Germanwings jet that crashed in the French Alps deliberately forced the plane into the descent that led to the disaster, the prosecutor said. He pressed a button that accelerated the Airbus A320’s descent when alone in the cockpit. “It was a voluntary action,” Robin said.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:43
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So the co-pilot who's allegedly responsible was 28, and had 630 flight hours. I guess that makes it more likely for him to be some sort of undiscovered whacko.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:45
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A Handed Missus posted:Here's a summary at least: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525 That's perfect, thanks.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:51
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It's reminding me of the FedEx Flight 705 incident where a Flight Engineer tried to crash the plane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705 I think there's one of those air disaster shows that details it, too.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:56
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AzureSkys posted:It's reminding me of the FedEx Flight 705 incident where a Flight Engineer tried to crash the plane. Indeed there is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYQQwfGU_YA This situation very closely mirrors that of SilkAir Flight 185 though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7fXUXcSu1c
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Mar 26, 2015 14:04
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The worst part is everyone would have known what was going on. gently caress me.
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Mar 26, 2015 14:18
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No happy stories in "everybody dies" air crash post-modems...
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Mar 26, 2015 14:54
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"Spohr is asked whether Germanwings or Lufthansa protocols provide for a second member of the flight crew to be in the cockpit if one of the pilots leaves. He says that the company does not have such a protocol, that European regulations do not require it, and that he is not aware of any of the company’s competitors that have such a procedure." http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...4b0a2e685c0d10a
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Mar 26, 2015 14:55
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I know you have to be a complete psychopath to deliberately fly a plane loaded with people into a mountain, but how the gently caress do you maintain "normal" breathing through it? Wouldn't your breathing rate involuntarily rise as you got closer and closer to the death you know is coming?
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Mar 26, 2015 15:04
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German newspaper FAZ say the pilot suspended his pilot training for a few months, possibly due to depression.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:04
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Honj Steak posted:German newspaper FAZ say the pilot suspended his pilot training for a few months, possibly due to depression. Awesome. If true, you know it's not going to go in a positive way where people involved in aviation don't go to doctors for routine things because they're afraid of losing their jobs.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:19
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slidebite posted:The worst part is everyone would have known what was going on. From the AP report: quote:Robin said just before the plane hit the mountain, the sounds of passengers screaming could be heard on the audio. Sounds like the passengers knew something was very wrong from the pilot trying to get back in, but didn't realize how it was going to end until the last seconds.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:22
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Nice piece of fish posted:So the co-pilot who's allegedly responsible was 28, and had 630 flight hours. I guess that makes it more likely for him to be some sort of undiscovered whacko. Well, at least we know this can't happen in the US! (he'd need 870 more hours to get in the seat)
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Mar 26, 2015 15:25
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