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YF-23 posted:If he lost it to the zimmypunch it seems more likely that his hand (or arm) was involved in the ethermagics that allowed the surgery to happen, and when he got punched the whole system had a sudden death either taking his hand with it or mangling it beyond repair. 
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Mar 25, 2015 20:58
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So an online store in NZ is maybe getting the softcover of Volume I in. Is it worth picking up, or should I try for the hardcovers?
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Mar 25, 2015 22:01
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Kikas posted:If he was a demon, he would have a hand more like this Finally, this comics getting CRAZY.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:03
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Hidden in his coat is a red right hand
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Mar 25, 2015 22:11
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FronzelNeekburm posted:If only we had a tree grown out of a hand (and vice versa) he could use... Theory: Ysengrin is time travelling Anthony and this is why he acts parental towards Antimony.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:14
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FronzelNeekburm posted:If only we had a tree grown out of a hand (and vice versa) he could use... If only someone was good at etheric biomechanics. She could fix his hand.
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Mar 25, 2015 22:54
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I wonder if this is why Annie likes Jones. She reminded her of her father.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:26
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I think he's about to kick her out of his class. He's writing up the paperwork right now. In the best case scenario, it's so there's no obligation to keep a professional student/teacher relationship and they can be more personal, but that doesn't seem very likely.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:49
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YF-23 posted:Theory: Ysengrin is time travelling Anthony and this is why he acts parental towards Antimony.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:49
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YF-23 posted:Theory: Ysengrin is time travelling Anthony and this is why he acts parental towards Antimony. And Coyote ate his memories so he doesn't realise it. IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE.
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Mar 25, 2015 23:53
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Captain_Person posted:So an online store in NZ is maybe getting the softcover of Volume I in. Is it worth picking up, or should I try for the hardcovers? The hardcovers of vols. 2-4 are pretty sweet, but it's not at all obvious there will be any more hardcovers printed of vol. 1 or any other volume (maybe new ones, but...) There's probably no reason to pass on softcovers if you have nothing at all but it's a little disappointing that I may not be able to get a hardcover of vol. 1 to finish my bookshelf either.
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Mar 26, 2015 00:55
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ComradeCosmobot posted:The hardcovers of vols. 2-4 are pretty sweet, but it's not at all obvious there will be any more hardcovers printed of vol. 1 or any other volume (maybe new ones, but...) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608867498/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Looks like hardcovers for volume 1 are being re-printed, unless I am confused.
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Mar 26, 2015 01:05
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Anthony's got a long way to go to catch up to Jimmy in both the "affection shown towards daughter" and "suffering inflicted on daughter" departments.
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Mar 26, 2015 01:12
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MikeJF posted:I hope so. The bones look like a hand in that Treatise, too.
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Mar 26, 2015 01:38
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Guys I think Annie's dad might be kind of a jerk 
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Mar 26, 2015 02:13
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MikeJF posted:I hope so. The bones look like a hand in that Treatise, too. I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned before but I really love the use of the photodiode symbols on the angel in that treatise.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:16
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I wish Annie would stop being so drat reserved and English for a moment and just scream 'where the hell have you been for the last few years and why the hell didn't you tell me you were back the instant you stepped on to the Court grounds?' and then shake Anthony by his lapels until he tells her.
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Mar 26, 2015 02:47
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Dammerung posted:It's entirely possible that the balance of influence will change after this chapter - Annie can convince herself of whatever she'd like when he's away, but I don't think she'll be able to deny what's happening when he's literally right in front of her and doing it! Yeah, it doesn't usually work that way. He's her dad, she loves him, that'll excuse basically everything but him, like, backhanding her friend in front of her. Not just "Kind of being a dick". He's a surgeon that just lost his hand, regular people can act like total assholes because of that. Her dad who is predisposed not to be the most emotionally together? She has every excuse she needs to explain away almost anything he could do this chapter. And again, he's her dad and she loves him. She's not predisposed to think badly of him to start with.
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Mar 26, 2015 06:15
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Everyone's got a breaking point, though. And the fall from the pedestal she's got him on would be pretty far and painful. And we all know when something snaps Annie's reserved shell, it snaps explosively. Not that I think she's going to fireball Tony (not that he's not asking for it) but it would be really easy for this situation not to end exactly amicably.
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Mar 26, 2015 06:23
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Boogaleeboo posted:Yeah, it doesn't usually work that way. He's her dad, she loves him, that'll excuse basically everything but him, like, backhanding her friend in front of her. Not just "Kind of being a dick". He's a surgeon that just lost his hand, regular people can act like total assholes because of that. Her dad who is predisposed not to be the most emotionally together? She has every excuse she needs to explain away almost anything he could do this chapter. And again, he's her dad and she loves him. She's not predisposed to think badly of him to start with. How do you know he just lost his hand? He's been away for quite a few years, it could have been a while ago. And shouldn't he be a little happier to see her, or at the very least, not single her out as he has done? I'm not saying that things will necessarily disintegrate between them, just that it's probably going to be a lot harder for Annie to think of him as positively as she has. Dammerung fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 06:31
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Dammerung posted:How do you know he just lost his hand? Well he had a hand before she left him, and then he didn't. So best case he lost it two years ago. That's not that long in being crippled terms. quote:And shouldn't he be a little happier to see her, or at the very least, not single her out as he has done? Not really. We've had no reason to believe that's ever who he was to any living being in his entire life, there's no reason she'd expect him to be that way now. All the terrible things about having to deal with him as a person are things she's had to put up with her entire life, and she still loves him. It's going to take a lot for that to change, if it ever does. Like all this "Him being nearly sociopathically detached from normal emotion and behavior" stuff may seem new and terrible to you, but it's the everyday baseline she judges his behavior from. More of it isn't going to be the thing that changes her mind.
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Mar 26, 2015 07:07
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Boogaleeboo posted:Yeah, it doesn't usually work that way. He's her dad, she loves him, that'll excuse basically everything Have you ever encountered a teenage girl? When they get angry at their parents poo poo can go down.
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Mar 26, 2015 07:48
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MikeJF posted:Have you ever encountered a teenage girl? When they get angry at their parents poo poo can go down. And Annie has a nasty streak. http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=802 Look at her face while she's ripping Reynard apart. She is enjoying that a lot.
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Mar 26, 2015 08:56
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Zore posted:And Annie has a nasty streak. Keep in mind that she's ripping Reynard apart because Reynard insulted her dad. Annie's feelings toward her dad are no doubt complex as hell, but they're rather protective and positive at this point. It's true that Annie could end up hating her dad or yelling at him, but she's not even close to that right now. Look at her nervous excitement in panel two of today's comic.
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Mar 26, 2015 09:08
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Also the dude seems to have lost his hand trying to forcefully cram his fingers into his daughters soul, in which there is no part of that sentence that paints a picture of a man who wasn't a piece of poo poo BEFORE losing the hand The dude resents the poo poo out of his daughter for being a symbol of his failure to cure Surma's illness, and is still trying to fix it. We already understand him to be a cold and distant person from brief looks at his youth and we also understand that he also now has the impression that Antinomy sent someone to tear his goddamn hand off. He is also probably working there because it appears to be the only place in the world with openings in the field of Spookyshitology and sometimes despite all your letters you need to take a job teaching undergraduate work because they're the only institution that will fund your research, and the dude very clearly seems like the type who does not give a poo poo about Antimony's comfort or happiness enough to necessarily have that be a factor. There is a very likely chance that he is not there to see her, he is not plotting to kill her, he might in fact just be there because it's a job that funds his more important research. This is still abuse, and he's abused her over the course of this comic any way a human being can be abused, but it's part of an abusive pattern that Antimony understands and has internalized as normal. Rei_ fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 10:58
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Yes, of course, trying to cure your daughter from a condition that will leaver her bedridden and kill her if she has a child, and thus also leave your daughter's child an orphan, means you resent her, not that you love her.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:08
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You are pretty darn confident that was what was going on in that chapter huh. I guess that whole sequence where Zimmy discusses with Kat how Annie is blind to her dad being a jerk, and then Zimmy breaking the bone spear in triumph was meant to be read as 'gee Zimmy is such a jerk and Kat should leave Annie alone, how can they possibly understand, they are only merely the only friends Annie ever had'. Also I guess you think Diego is a giant hero who tried to save his love from being tricked by the wicked forest people but that drat artillery man interfered and made it all bad. Also robot is perfect, he is trying to encourage Kat's development, why can't anyone see that. Also silly Annie, why did you free Zimmy from that power plant thing. EDIT: The point here is that bone spear was pretty blatantly written as an attack, we're told that story from the perspective of someone who rescues Annie and sees her dad as a jerk (and Annie as foolishly blind to that) for a reason. Siddell can turn around and at some later point subvert our understanding, just like he can with Diego and all the other things. But that would be a twist, and not our intended attitude at this point. IMHO it would also be a rather annoying and pointless twist, to have pretty much every other character be wrong and to require Annie to not change her worldview at all. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 12:22
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Anthony "Tony Tons" Carver is terrible at being a human being, but does that make him a terrible human being?  Yes it does. 
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Mar 26, 2015 12:38
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No, I think Anthony hosed up in failing to communicate that he'd do the surgery. The reaction against it by Zimmy etc. was perfectly justified. I also think that Kat is biased against Anthony because she doesn't know him, all she knows of him is that he was friends with the old crew way back and that he's been away from Annie's life for the past few years. She thinks Annie's making excuses for her dad, but the difference isn't just that Anthony is Annie's dad, it's also that Annie is Anthony's daughter and she grew up with the guy. From what we've seen of Anthony so far I am pretty confident that he is meant to be a reclusive but ultimately loving father, who, following the death of his wife has put parenting aside and put his daughter in the trust of his old friends and dedicated himself to potentially dangerous research to achieve with Antimony what he failed to do with Surma. And I'd say that, given his failure to save Surma, and on top of that the failed surgery with Annie which apparently mangled his surgeon's hand, he resents himself more than anything. He might even hate himself enough to want Annie to hate him as well. Of course, tea-san could well pull a Gendo out of him; there's enough ambiguity that it could reasonably happen. But I'm pretty confident this is not the way things are going.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:38
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BobTheJanitor posted:Everyone's got a breaking point, though. And the fall from the pedestal she's got him on would be pretty far and painful. And we all know when something snaps Annie's reserved shell, it snaps explosively. I don't think Annie is going to explode at her father for the exact same reason I don't think she'd ever explode at Kat: she's emotionally dependent on them. Annie cannot effectively defend against an attack from Anthony because Anthony is the bricks and mortar from which her walls are built. I'm not going to say it'll never happen, because that's a good way to be proven wrong and wind up looking like a tit, and obviously this could change, but I don't think there's anything Anthony could do or say to his daughter* as she is now that could make her explode at him. She's infinitely more likely to end up sitting outside the tree room in the fetal position again. (*to Kat might be a different matter)
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Mar 26, 2015 12:43
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Literally the only evidence we have that Anthony loves Annie was that flashback of her mother telling her that. If there was all sorts of private things he did to show his love, then Siddell has deliberately hidden it. Why do you think Siddell did things this way? Why would he withhold essential aspects of the inner workings of his main character, and make this stuff such that the majority of people hate Annie's dad (and at the bare minimum, make the situation very ambiguous)? For me, the answer seems pretty clear. The love Annie has for her dad is really her love for her mom. And her absolute faith in her mom. But as is increasingly apparent, Surma was fallible. The alternative, that there is all sorts of things Annie knows, but Siddell is tricking his readership. That could be true. But it has the whiff of bad writing, because basically it means none of this drama exists except for the framing and Annie not talking about it.
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Mar 26, 2015 12:57
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We've seen a flashback of Anthony teaching Annie martial arts. It's stupid to think that Annie only knows how her father works because of a thing her mother told her once, Anthony was around when Annie was a kid.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:09
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the idea that anthony loves his daughter in his own autistic way and the idea that his behavior is utterly unacceptable and he shouldn't be anywhere near her aren't exactly mutually exclusive
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Mar 26, 2015 13:13
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YF-23 posted:We've seen a flashback of Anthony teaching Annie martial arts. It's stupid to think that Annie only knows how her father works because of a thing her mother told her once, Anthony was around when Annie was a kid. That flashback was immediately after Donald, who hadn't known Anthony for years, told her that 'the smallest thing carries the greatest weight', just after Annie was musing how strange it was to think of her father as a person. And immediately before she went into a coma. The fact that it took Donald to tell her that thing casts a shed load of doubt over how well Annie knows Anthony. We don't know when that martial arts flashback happened, we don't know the real context. It is easily read as Antimony being emboldened to cast her mind back to *any* small thing that *might* be love. And digging out an incident that could easily be just read as Anthony simply discharging his professional duty as a surgeon, after injuring her through callous training. (No, she was not remembering the training itself positively, she was remembering him patching her up after she got hurt.) EDIT: I mean, explain this: http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1010 I guess Annie is lying to Donald??? EDIT2: Reading back that chapter, I find it interesting that Donald, usually active and engaging, is facing away from the reader and Annie when he was saying all that stuff about how he thinks Anthony really loves Annie because of the way he sent the message. That reads as well, maybe deception. http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1014 Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 13:36
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You're being reductionist about all this. It would be shocking if Anthony was some 100% awful piece of poo poo that doesn't love Annie at all. It wouldn't fit with the comic or what we know about Anthony. Tom might want us to hate Anthony. Given how horrible Anthony has been, that's quite likely. That doesn't really tell us anything about who Anthony is, though. We know Anthony loved Surma. We know that Anthony has serious problems dealing with complicated emotions. It's reasonable to think having your daughter in some ways be responsible for your love's death might be emotionally complicated. This is enough cause to think that his current behavior isn't because he's evil incarnate. Note, this doesn't mean what he's doing is OK or even excusable. The etheric surgery? We don't know what was going on there yet. Maybe he was being terrible. Maybe he was trying to help Antimony and his communication issues hosed everything up. We don't know. It looked bad, but if you walked in on a team of surgeons performing a lung transplant and you didn't know they were performing surgery, you would think they were monsters. Ultimately, though, the reason I think Anthony is not going to be a simple loathsome father figure is that it wouldn't fit with this comic's major themes. Characters in Gunnerkrigg are complicated, especially when it comes to how they treat people they care about. Zimmy and Gamma love each other, but Zimmy treats gamma like poo poo. Kat is in many ways the center of Antimony's world, but Antimony still cheats off her all the time. Reynardine and Anthony love eachother, but he totally tried to kill her and she has total power over him. Robot loves Kat, but in a distinctly creepy, not-cool way. Red and Blue are Red and Blue. Anthony and Antimony probably have the most complex relationship we've seen so far.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:45
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Tollymain posted:the idea that anthony loves his daughter in his own autistic way and the idea that his behavior is utterly unacceptable and he shouldn't be anywhere near her aren't exactly mutually exclusive That's how I've been reading this whole chapter. I feel like, to a certain extent, YF has a point. I don't think that Annie is going to come to any certain clear revelation that her dad is a grade A supreme jerk, because that's not how abused children work. They internalize that as being the norm, and in some cases, it shapes their personality. Annie's reserved nature started slowly going away only after years of not being around the guy, and only under extreme circumstances. I see this chapter having Annie go further back into her own shell for awhile, much to the disappointment of all the new friends she made from being herself. Kat, on the other hand, is that friend that has the most frustrating task in the world of see things for what they really are, and not having any real power to change her friend's mind.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:49
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Anthony being her father is also important because, as a minor, he holds actual authority over her. The school hasn't been very controlling of her thus far but Anthony could just say "no more forest visits" and that's the end of that. With the court she's had room to negotiate and we may very well see him come between her and her role as medium, it may even be that which brought him back into her life.
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Mar 26, 2015 13:53
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Wittgen posted:Anthony and Antimony probably have the most complex relationship we've seen so far. Not really: She wants affection from him, and he withholds it. That's it. That's their entire relationship. For all we know Anthony has complex and sympathetic reasons for being a lovely dad, but he's still a lovely dad. An explanation for why he's so lovely isn't going to make the years he's spent neglecting his child go away.
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Mar 26, 2015 14:22
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Wittgen posted:You're being reductionist about all this. It would be shocking if Anthony was some 100% awful piece of poo poo that doesn't love Annie at all. It wouldn't fit with the comic or what we know about Anthony. Tom might want us to hate Anthony. Given how horrible Anthony has been, that's quite likely. That doesn't really tell us anything about who Anthony is, though. I think it would be shocking but I think it would also be within the scope of possibility - and to me, pretty plausible at this point in time. And I think the comic really needs that to be in the scope of possibility. Anthony not loving Annie at all is not necessarily what I am arguing. I am however arguing that if Anthony loves Annie, he (and Siddell) need to do a LOT to show it and to prove and to show that he is at all worthy of the love Annie shows him. And that on the face of it, it is Annie that needs to seriously adjust the image she has of her father, not Kat and Zimmy and all the other characters. I react more to the attitude that (a) Everyone is good in Gunnerkrigg, no way can a bad actor be in this story - which I think is actually rather dismissive. Do people think Gunnerkrigg is *that* predictable? Do people think that the fact that yes, Siddell's played this trick before means that he's going to keep doing it? Personally I'm fairly engaged in the story, so like, when we have a chapter where we have something that is written as an attack, where we're rooting for Zimmy, and people read and say 'oh that is obviously a misdirection', there's no bad guys in Gunnerkrigg - to me that's a negative judgement on Siddell, to claim that he doesn't have that range. I can't agree with that because I think Siddell is a better storyteller than that. (b) Antimony must love Anthony and that feeling is mutual because he's her dad. Now the danger here is that this is personal territory and I risk sounding like Chibisoma or something. So be warned. But like, my personal belief is that familial love is something that should be shown and earned. Dads can be jerks and not love their daughters (or at least not love them in any way that is positive or matters), and thus not be deserving of their love in return. So that sometimes, the positive thing to do could be to not hope in vain that your dad will turn good someday (alienating yourself from people who actually do care about you), but to acknowledge that fact and live your life. I feel like Gunnerkrigg Court could be that story, and I think that is great. I would be legit annoyed if Gunnerkrigg was instead that rather stereotypical (and arguably harmful) story where the moral is that Bonds Of The Blood Are Unbreakable, that abusive people can be fixed if the abused try reeeeally hard, that the friends of the abused should ignore the evidence of their own eyes/assume the abused know better somehow and we should just trust and forgive Anthony for anything he does. So Anthony *could* turn out good after all, but for that to work Siddell will have to lay a lot of groundwork for that and there's little to no evidence of that so far. I am simply incredulous at people who think that the story is actually that Anthony loves Annie and nothing needs to be done and Siddell could just have Anthony be a good guy and be done with it. Because boy does Anthony not deserve that right now from what we've seen. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 14:30
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I think that's all fair. I'm just trying to say that I think Anthony is a terrible, abusive father AND he loves Antimony and ultimately wants to save her.
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Mar 26, 2015 14:38
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