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he's a villain, not a monster
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Mar 26, 2015 15:07
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I think that intelligent readers do not, in fact, need to have it hammered by the comic that Anthony loves Annie if it is supposed to be so. And in fact I'd consider it childish storytelling if Anthony was a villain simply because of the assumption that a story needs to have a villain, or that even if he was that it would necessarily reflect on his character. Now I will admit that Gunnerkrigg's been largely conflict-averse so far, but it has at the same time been slowly building up the groundwork for a Kat/Annie conflict that mirrors the one between the court and the forest/science and magic, and as far as we know that is not going to happen anytime soon; the previous chapter showcased that the story is still doing world-building so it's not unreasonable to expect the story's driving conflict to fully unravel later on (it might start happening now, if Anthony does confront Annie about the copying and Kat overhears it, along with Kat maybe being openly hostile towards Anthony in front of Annie). In any case, we haven't seen anything to suggest that Anthony resents Annie. His behaviour is in line with what we know about him, and what we've seen of those who knew him best (Surma, Donald, Annie) shows trust in him being a well-meaning person. I think it's a bigger leap to assume that his surgery on Annie was for something other than suppressing/curing the fire elemental aspect than otherwise. And specifically regarding how we're supposed to perceive the surgery - I think it is supposed to be ambiguous. What we're supposed to take from it is that Kat dislikes Annie's father because she only knows him as a guy that's abandoned his daughter and put her in coma to perform some kind of ether-surgery on her (and by that alone it should be obvious how ill-informed Kat's opinion of Anthony is), but I don't think we're supposed to come to any sort of conclusion about the nature of the surgery other than it has to do with the fire elemental aspect of Antimony.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:08
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YF-23 posted:No, I think Anthony hosed up in failing to communicate that he'd do the surgery. Yes that makes it assault
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Mar 26, 2015 15:12
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People can appear really nice and kind to their friends and colleagues, (not that Anthony is portrayed as that great to Donald), and then go home and beat their spouse and abuse their child. If we are to hold Anthony's childhood friend's view as having more value than that of Antimony's best and closest friend's view of the situation, then that's a very dubious message. And yeah, given what Anthony has done, whether or not he deep down loves Annie or not does not matter that greatly. Diego helped murder his love. Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 15:22
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Kat knows nothing about Anthony though, I don't see why her opinion on him holds much weight except with regards to her actions.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:32
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Rereading Microsat 5 was quite illuminating I think. This is going to be a rough ride for her. e. er. rougher.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:38
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YF-23 posted:Kat knows nothing about Anthony though, I don't see why her opinion on him holds much weight except with regards to her actions. Kat knows enough about what Anthony is putting Antimony through. She doesn't need to know Anthony, she knows Annie. She's close enough to see that she's suffering because of this. Donald's the equivalent of the co-worker they interview in the news whenever there's a big criminal case. "Oh him... he's such a nice guy, there's no way he could do bad things." Every person has one of them. That they could see some positive value about a person says things about them, not the person they are talking about. Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 15:46
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Bilirubin posted:Yes that makes it assault Basically, and what I'm seeing on the outskirts of this conversation is a lot of kind of rote handwaving about oh well he must be x or y and not what he actually is, is an abusive father. I don't care what his loving deal is, the impact of his actions is very real. Talking about motives doesn't really impact the outcome of his actions, he invaded his daughters body without her knowledge/consent/communication, the only person not outraged is Antimony who literally does not know how to process the idea that her father is hurting her. Fangz posted:Kat knows enough about what Anthony is putting Antimony through. She doesn't need to know Anthony, she knows Annie. She's close enough to see that she's suffering because of this. Donald's the equivalent of the co-worker they interview in the news whenever there's a big criminal case. Like this kind of language is used all the time when we talk about abuse in relationships. Everyone wants to rationalize something that makes the damage okay, like the damage could be undone if we had evidence of it being for a more noble cause. Rei_ fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 15:59
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Rei_ posted:Basically, and what I'm seeing on the outskirts of this conversation is a lot of kind of rote handwaving about oh well he must be x or y and not what he actually is, is an abusive father. I don't care what his loving deal is, the impact of his actions is very real. Talking about motives doesn't really impact the outcome of his actions, he invaded his daughters body without her knowledge/consent/communication, the only person not outraged is Antimony who literally does not know how to process the idea that her father is hurting her. This. People seem to have a really reductive view of abusers and their victims, that it's a clear cut thing instead of this hugely messed up situation of emotions. Abusers can love their victims. Victims can love their abusers. Abusers can come off as good people to outsiders, walling off parts of their lives so others make excuses for them. Victims can come off as "people who deserve it" to outsiders, walking off what is actually happening so others make excuses to mentally justify what they don't want to acknowledge is happening to the victim. Trying to make it "he is her dad and so he loves her, therefore he isn't abusive, because he loves her and Donny says he was a good guy decades ago" is missing so much.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:28
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Also its worth noting that literally every "Tony's not that bad a dude, really" testimony is from someone who has personal or emotional reasons to ignore evidence of tony really being a massive rear end in a top hat for real. The Donlans grew up with him and were close friends with his wife, Annie needs to believe he loves her to not lose her poo poo, and Surma married him and probably wouldn't be able to admit that Tony didn't love their daughter even if it was much less ambiguous than it is. People outside this group don't just "not like" Anthony, he's got a phenomenally bad rep.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:38
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Demiurge4 posted:The school hasn't been very controlling of her thus far but Anthony could just say "no more forest visits" and that's the end of that. I don't know about that. Coyote obviously wants her to be his medium and I doubt the Court would take Annie's position away from her (and risk pissing off Coyote) just because her dad says "No going to the forest anymore" unless they had a really good reason for doing so. YF-23 posted:What we're supposed to take from it is that Kat dislikes Annie's father because she only knows him as a guy that's abandoned his daughter and put her in coma to perform some kind of ether-surgery on her (and by that alone it should be obvious how ill-informed Kat's opinion of Anthony is), If I remember right, only Zimmy and Gamma know it was Anthony who did the surgery. Annie just told Kat she thought she had a weird dream about Zimmy punching her dad.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:39
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Heliotrope posted:If I remember right, only Zimmy and Gamma know it was Anthony who did the surgery. Annie just told Kat she thought she had a weird dream about Zimmy punching her dad. Yeah, and Annie and Kat are not even sure that Zimmy was there. It was all very "did this just happen or not?" for them. And Zimmy & Gamma will not tell anyone, I bet.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:47
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Heliotrope posted:If I remember right, only Zimmy and Gamma know it was Anthony who did the surgery. Annie just told Kat she thought she had a weird dream about Zimmy punching her dad. In any case during Zimmy's intervention she mentions her dad and asks Kat about it, and Kat's subconscious is pretty clear about what she thinks of him. mr. stefan posted:Also its worth noting that literally every "Tony's not that bad a dude, really" testimony is from someone who has personal or emotional reasons to ignore evidence of tony really being a massive rear end in a top hat for real. The Donlans grew up with him and were close friends with his wife, Annie needs to believe he loves her to not lose her poo poo, and Surma married him and probably wouldn't be able to admit that Tony didn't love their daughter even if it was much less ambiguous than it is. People outside this group don't just "not like" Anthony, he's got a phenomenally bad rep. It takes a lot of tortured logic to try to say that these people think Anthony is good because they had that relationship with him instead of the other way around (except for Annie; but thinking that Surma trusted him because she was married to him instead of her marrying him because she trusted him is all kinds of backwards).
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Mar 26, 2015 16:56
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Dude, even Adolf Hitler got married in the end. Kat hates Anthony because she cares about Annie. Not some crazy bias like you are trying to make out.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:26
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Are you saying that Surma was a nazi...?
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Mar 26, 2015 17:28
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You honestly don't understand human relationships at all, do you?
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Mar 26, 2015 17:31
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Antimony should sever. 
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Mar 26, 2015 17:34
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mr. stefan posted:Also its worth noting that literally every "Tony's not that bad a dude, really" testimony is from someone who has personal or emotional reasons to ignore evidence of tony really being a massive rear end in a top hat for real. The Donlans grew up with him and were close friends with his wife, Annie needs to believe he loves her to not lose her poo poo, and Surma married him and probably wouldn't be able to admit that Tony didn't love their daughter even if it was much less ambiguous than it is. People outside this group don't just "not like" Anthony, he's got a phenomenally bad rep. Read that statement a couple times.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:37
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fffff posted:Antimony should sever. Zimmy did this for her already
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Mar 26, 2015 17:44
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The people that are closest to someone are not necessarily the people that know them best. They are often the people who know them least, being ignorant or otherwise in denial of their faults. Good people have relationships with bad people. It happens a lot. Why are we having trouble understanding this? Surma died before the apparent abuse began, and Donny doesn't know a thing about what is going on with Annie.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:45
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Fangz, I'm starting to get the impression you're speaking from personal experience.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:48
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Fangz posted:The people that are closest to someone are not necessarily the people that know them best. They are often the people who know them least, being ignorant or otherwise in denial of their faults. That said, this isn't a case of "just Surma loved Anthony, everyone else hated him." He had several acquaintances and friends. There's some redeeming value there. We just can't see it yet. Not to say he isn't an rear end in a top hat who has neglected his daughter for years, because he is. But he isn't a complete monster.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:51
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Lurdiak posted:Fangz, I'm starting to get the impression you're speaking from personal experience. Yes, I am. But seriously? How have people managed to avoid situations where this is blatantly the case? Have you seriously not had a friend of a friend drip racism into your Facebook feed? Not had that one grandparent who is just a homophobe? Or not seen the guy at the shop who is funny and charming and they turns around and shouts abuse at their girlfriend? How the hell have you people managed to live in this bubble where your friends are good people implies their friends are *also* good people and so on transitively unto the n-th generation? Because holy poo poo.
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Mar 26, 2015 17:59
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Fangz posted:Yes, I am.
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Mar 26, 2015 18:01
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JT Jag posted:Anthony had to have some sort of redeeming quality to end up with that crowd. I don't think anyone is saying he's a good person. Maybe he bakes really good cookies.
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Mar 26, 2015 18:05
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JT Jag posted:Anthony had to have some sort of redeeming quality to end up with that crowd. I don't think anyone is saying he's a good person. When you meet in grade school, the redeeming quality is "they are my age and socialize with me"
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Mar 26, 2015 18:30
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Bilirubin posted:Yes that makes it assault That comatose patient from a car accident couldn't consent!
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Mar 26, 2015 18:38
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Fangz posted:The people that are closest to someone are not necessarily the people that know them best. They are often the people who know them least, being ignorant or otherwise in denial of their faults. The only people we've seen talking about Tony Tons in the comic are Jimmy Jims (strong dislike), Donny Dons (like with caveat), Jonesy Jones (cold dislike), Renny Rens (strong dislike), and Surmy Surms (like with caveat). In addition, Katty Kats hates him.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:06
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Fangz posted:Yes, I am. Hahahahaha so it -was- "no, gently caress you, dad  " all along
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Mar 26, 2015 19:08
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My dad didn't treat me with cold neglect for years then suddenly assault me out of the middle of nowhere, if that's what you think.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:20
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Cat Mattress posted:The only people we've seen talking about Tony Tons in the comic are Jimmy Jims (strong dislike), Donny Dons (like with caveat), Jonesy Jones (cold dislike), Renny Rens (strong dislike), and Surmy Surms (like with caveat). In addition, Katty Kats hates him. Love has a way of unduly influencing one's opinion
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Mar 26, 2015 19:23
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I'm with Kat: Tony-Tons is looking more punchable by the minute.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:34
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Hmm. I'm trying to think of this from Anthony's side. His wife dies by slowly draining her life force into Antimony despite Anthony's best efforts. He knows it's the fate of his own daughter and wants to stop it. (Aside: I wonder if Surma was supposed to die in childbirth but Anthony delayed it somehow by keeping her in the hospital for 12 years.) So he runs off somewhere and continues his life's work of neutralizing the fire elemental death part of her. He comes up with a radical etheric technique and tries (probably not expecting it to put her in a coma) to remove the elemental from his daughter. But then Zimmy hitches a ride up the bone spears and mauls the gently caress out of him, with the proclamation: "MESSAGE FROM YOUR LITTLE GIRL, MATE!" So now Anthony is beat to hell, possibly crippled, possibly unable to practice medicine anymore. I can see how he might be kind of a dick -- well, even more of a dick than usual. He may be making assumptions about what really happened while Antimony has no memory of the incident and wouldn't be able to convince him otherwise. He's still a tosser though.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:38
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Blackheart posted:Hahahahaha so it -was- "no, gently caress you, dad This is the opposite conclusion I hoped people would reach when I posted that.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:40
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Bell_ posted:What are you, an ambulance chaser? Not an ambulance chaser, but married to one. Good troll though, I almost serious posted on the difference between implied and informed consent!
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Mar 26, 2015 19:45
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Blackheart posted:Hahahahaha so it -was- "no, gently caress you, dad Fangz and FriedChicken are the rational ones on this actually. People will do a lot to overlook the lovely behavior of people who are part of the tribe, whatever form that tribe might take.
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Mar 26, 2015 19:54
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Love makes you act in strange ways. Anthony is acting in strange ways. Therefore....
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Mar 26, 2015 19:58
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Well at the very least Anthony hasn't been posting stuff Antimony doesn't like on her Gunnerbook. That would pretty much cross the line and permanently ruin him in my eyes. Or maybe he has but she keeps finding new ways to defend and cover up for him.
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Mar 26, 2015 20:02
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Bongo Bill posted:Love makes you act in strange ways. Yep, that's a pretty major theme of the comic. People do terrible things in the name of love. For instance, Diego truly loved Jeanne in some way. Diego was an awful person who did awful things. I'm sure he had a good quality in him here or there, but he still had an overall negative impact on Jeanne's life (to understate it). The point is just that loving someone doesn't somehow make all your actions towards them good, and that having redeeming qualities or your own emotional issues driving your actions doesn't excuse the harmful actions that you take. As someone said upthread, "abusers do often truly love the person they're abusing, and vice versa". We're not claiming to know the entire hidden backstory of Anthony here, but we can absolutely judge the actions we have seen from him and the impact we have seen them have on his daughter. She clearly loves him, and is willing to forgive the stuff he does, we don't love him, so we aren't. When his actions make her feel bad, she doesn't fault him for that because she trusts him so absolutely, and that makes this even sadder to see as an outside observer. And yeah, maybe she has good reasons to trust him based on her childhood, he's her father after all, but that doesn't change the fact that the stuff we've seen him do to Annie in the comic ranges from Major Dick Move to Supernatural Assault. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 20:04
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Fangz posted:Yes, I am. I agree with all of this. It's natural to want to provide any possible excuse for somebody you care about and love, because it can be extremely hard to accept that those flaws exist, and just... kind of are a part of who they are. It gets much harder to justify when you're experiencing it personally, though, and I don't know how Annie will ultimately act in response to what's going on.
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Mar 26, 2015 20:13
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