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700 grand in worthless paper, its only utility the signeurage it derives from the petty local tyrant who decreed its printing.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:26
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Mendrian posted:This is not entirely accurate. It should vary by contract but there have been cases of payment upon submission of the final draft with the rest upon the release of the product. Granted in this case there may have been a year or more between those two phases. My mistake, you're right that payment is also rendered with the final draft.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:34
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Ferrinus posted:700 grand in worthless paper, its only utility the signeurage it derives from the petty local tyrant who decreed its printing. That said, holy gently caress, they don't pay people for over a loving year? What the hell do they do with that money during that time, put it in penny stocks? I could understand breaking up the payouts of course, but what if Morke had actually died of his mystery plague? I guess they would have just kept it all then.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:41
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Nessus posted:The true Anathema, B-Rock "The Islamic Shock" Superallah Hussein Obama. In their defense nobody was expecting writing this to take so long, including the devs.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:46
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Bedlamdan posted:In their defense nobody was expecting writing this to take so long, including the devs.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:02
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The amount of money any of the freelancers get is honestly so small compared to the hours spent on the project that accusing any of them of greed is in shockingly bad taste.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:05
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Rand Brittain posted:The amount of money any of the freelancers get is honestly so small compared to the hours spent on the project that accusing any of them of greed is in shockingly bad taste. I'm pretty sure Nessus thinks the same thing, Rand.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:07
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Rand Brittain posted:The amount of money any of the freelancers get is honestly so small compared to the hours spent on the project that accusing any of them of greed is in shockingly bad taste. I mean if it's "bad taste" to dislike the idea that people who wrote for these books didn't get paid for well over a year, then I'll happily accept that I am full of "bad taste." That's loving ridiculous, especially for a KS-style project where they get the money up front rather than crossing their fingers for sales. Fair enough if they want to divide it up somehow so people have a stake in submitting timely edits and revisions, but they should have gotten at least a big part of their pay already.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:08
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I beg your pardon; I misunderstood your point.
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Mar 27, 2015 21:23
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In fact I'll even propose what seems like a logical pay schedule for these writers. Let's assume John Elfgame is due for $10 for writing his giant book. (I use this stupidly low figure deliberately to avoid 'heh, if you think we're making anywhere near that money.' I suspect that freelancers on Ex3 have been paid - or expect to be paid - more than ten US dollars.) What would seem fair and just to me, is that he receives $6 upon completion of a final draft, and the remaining $4 upon publishing, with the understanding that he may have to do some last minute editing and revisions along the way possibly in a very swift manner. If there is expected to be a lengthy delay between the final draft and the publishing, what would also be fair is $3 upon completion of a full working draft, $3 upon completion of a final draft, and the remainder upon publishing. As I recall Ex3's stretch goals included pay bumps for freelancers, you could put that bumped pay all at the end, even, if you wanted to be sure your last minute edits will get prioritized by them. As for editors, I don't know how much they get but the broad principle would apply. Now, if everyone involved has signed a contract stating that they understand they will only be paid, in full, when the book is published, I think that that is a stupid contract, and arguably an abusive one, but everyone involved is a grown adult and would have gone in with their eyes open. I think the question would then be why it is considered necessary to do that, and what happens with the giant whack of KS money in the meantime. Rand Brittain posted:I beg your pardon; I misunderstood your point. e: Also while I was imprecise, by "they" I meant, in a vague sense, "Onyx Path" - I'm not sure how it's organized but presumably there is someone who calls the shots for it. Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 21:31
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Nessus posted:Now, if everyone involved has signed a contract stating that they understand they will only be paid, in full, when the book is published, I think that that is a stupid contract, and arguably an abusive one, but everyone involved is a grown adult and would have gone in with their eyes open. I think the question would then be why it is considered necessary to do that, and what happens with the giant whack of KS money in the meantime. Knowing a couple of people who're Onyx Path freelancers, and assuming they're representative, it seems like a lot of them are very, very enthused about "OMG I'M FINALLY WRITING FOR MY FAVOURITE PUBLISHER
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Mar 28, 2015 14:28
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PurpleXVI posted:Knowing a couple of people who're Onyx Path freelancers, and assuming they're representative, it seems like a lot of them are very, very enthused about "OMG I'M FINALLY WRITING FOR MY FAVOURITE PUBLISHER
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Mar 28, 2015 15:08
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I'm quite pleased with how the combat system works - we had our first full party fight against a Dragon-Blooded, who one of the PCs immediately and against all odds tackled to the ground and restrained while a number of other PCs talked him down from his anger. I hadn't expected this, and with the fae nightmare army that ended up charging the hill right afterwards, having him on their side proved really helpful, not just for his power but also for the fact that he can be obviously and publicly magical. It turned the fight into a much more unqualified triumph than I'd expected, and it was really cool. I do wish it was like, a step shorter, maybe, and I'd LOVE to either find a less onerous workflow for stunting in an online chat game or just, dispense with stunts entirely. I don't need their incentives to get good narration from the players and I dislike the way it makes them look plaintively at me before every action so I can arbitrate its objective coolness.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:28
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Have them roll immediately after stunting with a 2 die bonus, because you get that no matter what level of stunt it is. When you finish reading the stunt and decide, you can retroactively give the bonus successes for a 2 or 3 die stunt if needed
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Mar 28, 2015 17:02
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PurpleXVI posted:Knowing a couple of people who're Onyx Path freelancers, and assuming they're representative, it seems like a lot of them are very, very enthused about "OMG I'M FINALLY WRITING FOR MY FAVOURITE PUBLISHER That's pretty much every single person in Onyx Path right now, basically. EDIT: Don't write for rpgs unless this poo poo is somehow fun for you and you have an actual source of income outside of this. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 18:09
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PurpleXVI posted:Knowing a couple of people who're Onyx Path freelancers, and assuming they're representative, it seems like a lot of them are very, very enthused about "OMG I'M FINALLY WRITING FOR MY FAVOURITE PUBLISHER
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Mar 28, 2015 18:13
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Nessus posted:That's fine, as far as it goes, but I still think they should be getting paid in a more reasonable pace in case they have bills or whatever, or on the general principle of "having earned your money, you should actually have that money." I figured they are not making a LOT of money. Oh, yes, I wasn't defending treating them badly because "they like it," just saying that they were almost certainly getting hosed over and being taken advantage of.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:22
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PurpleXVI posted:Oh, yes, I wasn't defending treating them badly because "they like it," just saying that they were almost certainly getting hosed over and being taken advantage of.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:43
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When is this book getting released?
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Mar 31, 2015 23:44
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tatankatonk posted:When is this book getting released? Why do you care?
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Mar 31, 2015 23:48
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tatankatonk posted:When is this book getting released? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-uNflKNJDY
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Mar 31, 2015 23:51
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Bedlamdan posted:Why do you care? Probably because, like me, he wants a physical book to thump players with.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:00
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Kenlon posted:Probably because, like me, he wants a physical book to thump players with. He is just really invested in a game he does not care about, it's super goony. How is your game going, Kenlon?
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Apr 1, 2015 00:02
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Bedlamdan posted:Why do you care? How much money did you pledge to the Kickstarter? It should make anyone sad when they think of all the people who gave their money to the developers and have yet to see a physical copy of the book they helped fund. I care because hopefully they'll get what they were promised soon.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:05
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tatankatonk posted:How much money did you pledge to the Kickstarter? It should make anyone sad when they think of all the people who gave their money to the developers and have yet to see a physical copy of the book they helped fund. I care because hopefully they'll get what they were promised soon. Thank you for being invested in me, the consumer, while getting angry about the game we are consuming.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:09
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I want the book to come out so Stephen Lea Sheppard can post in this thread again. I miss him (not enough to post on rpgnet or the onyx path forums).
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Apr 1, 2015 00:11
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Bedlamdan posted:He is just really invested in a game he does not care about, it's super goony. Still in the prep phase - we were supposed to build characters this weekend but then my daughter ended up with a 103 fever, so.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:18
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Attorney at Funk posted:I want the book to come out so Stephen Lea Sheppard can post in this thread again. I miss him (not enough to post on rpgnet or the onyx path forums). Likewise. That silly christmas present analogy makes a bit more sense now we have the real game in our hands, after a fashion.
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Apr 1, 2015 00:22
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I just don't understand how you have this go on for so long and not just can the entire team- very few jobs let you just sit back and gently caress things up this long. Having worked on games before and met people who have worked on much higher profile games it is almost unthinkable to blow a deadline or goal posts for this long after having received people's money.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:10
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:I just don't understand how you have this go on for so long and not just can the entire team- very few jobs let you just sit back and gently caress things up this long. Having worked on games before and met people who have worked on much higher profile games it is almost unthinkable to blow a deadline or goal posts for this long after having received people's money. People are allowed to make these kinds of complaints about products whose creators get paid minimum wage for their work.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:14
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Rand Brittain posted:People are allowed to make these kinds of complaints about products whose creators get paid minimum wage for their work. Normally I agree with you but when people are given full payment for a work it does not matter what wage they get- do not take the cash if you're unhappy with the wage, as someone who has to work other jobs in order to support a gaming hobby and writing for games it sucks but it is how it is. EDIT: If they could not do it for the amount given, that should have been factored into the Kickstarter. That aside it is ultimately a management issue, not one of the writers, at cause for this. Old Doggy Bastard fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 02:20
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:Normally I agree with you but when people are given full payment for a work it does not matter what wage they get- do not take the cash if you're unhappy with the wage, as someone who has to work other jobs in order to support a gaming hobby and writing for games it sucks but it is how it is. As people have been discussing in the past couple of pages, they have not gotten paid yet.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:22
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:I just don't understand how you have this go on for so long and not just can the entire team- very few jobs let you just sit back and gently caress things up this long. Having worked on games before and met people who have worked on much higher profile games it is almost unthinkable to blow a deadline or goal posts for this long after having received people's money. Rand Brittain posted:People are allowed to make these kinds of complaints about products whose creators get paid minimum wage for their work.
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Apr 1, 2015 02:22
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Rand Brittain posted:As people have been discussing in the past couple of pages, they have not gotten paid yet. Money has changed hands, that is the ultimate difference. It does not matter how the writing team is ultimately treated like garbage in this debate because the person who should be held accountable is not the writing staff (who should have been paid a living wage, told to finish it, or been fired by now). I work for a much smaller company that has written, Kickstarted, and put out a game in the time that Exalted has been past deadline- and done it with paying out employees a living wage. This was not done by killing ourselves, letting people work while in perilous health, or out of joy for the industry but instead by working a business like a drat business. People gave us money and we worked past hardship to provide them with the product they paid for, even with problems arising. EDIT: By "Them" I mean whoever in the internal working of Exalted 3rd Edition has failed to provide their work by whatever deadlines are or should have been in place, and as for who to replace people with? We have nothing but a surplus of writers in the industry. If they can't pay a living wage then pay people who are taking this as a second job on the side. Old Doggy Bastard fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 02:26
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:Money has changed hands, that is the ultimate difference. It does not matter how the writing team is ultimately treated like garbage in this debate because the person who should be held accountable is not the writing staff (who should have been paid a living wage, told to finish it, or been fired by now). Let me tell you the story of a certain videogame... (Point being that this is not exactly anything new or shocking. And we are getting Exalted 3 and it's looking good, so it could've been much worse. You're bitching about the wrong person. You wanna complain, try to impeach Rich Thomas.)
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Apr 1, 2015 02:44
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tatankatonk posted:How much money did you pledge to the Kickstarter? It should make anyone sad when they think of all the people who gave their money to the developers and have yet to see a physical copy of the book they helped fund. I care because hopefully they'll get what they were promised soon. I have a hard time sympathizing with the poor, oppressed consumers who said, "Do you know what I want for my hard-earned dollars? Rape ghosts. I am looking for sexual assault ghosts in my fantasy roleplaying experience." Indeed, the reasonably good game Exalted 3E appears to be more than they deserve! nrook fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 03:20
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Transient People posted:Let me tell you the story of a certain videogame... I wonder if there are any residuals for writers? I assume the POD/PDF books sell in some small but semi-steady trickle.
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Apr 1, 2015 07:02
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:Money has changed hands, that is the ultimate difference. Backing a Kickstarter is not purchasing a product. Nobody has purchased a single 3e anything yet. No, backer rewards are not a preorder. The Kickstarter was to fund the production of a deluxe edition physical book if/when they finished writing it - no more, no less. Whether or not they missed a deadline is entirely a matter of Onyx Path internal affairs. Nobody has paid anyone anything for something undelivered. Nobody has made a preorder that has gone unfilled. If Exalted 3e comes out and they take months or years to release the deluxe physical copies, then there will be something to complain about. Until then, the worst we have to complain about is 'man, I wish it was already out' not 'gently caress those fuckers for taking my money, where's my product?'
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Apr 1, 2015 14:15
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Backer rewards are more like a pre-order than you think. Anyone who creates a project on Kickstarter is obligated by their agreement with Kickstarter to complete and provide the listed backer rewards to all backers. So, from the point where the Kickstarter is successfully funded onwards, your backer rewards are quite similar to a pre-ordered product. Legally, there are not many differences from preordering a game. The main one is that Kickstarter prescribes a form of recourse if a project is not or cannot be completed. Kickstarter Terms of Use posted:If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if: So, in my estimation, the main difference is that Kickstarter prescribes a procedure for a company which accepts preorders and fails to deliver on them to discharge their obligation by meeting these criteria. Important to note is that "changes or delays" do not inherently constitute failure to deliver the provided product, but this is not actually dissimilar to what happens when you preorder a game; Preordered games may very well change or be delayed, and this change or delay would have to be very substantial indeed for you to take legal action that isn't frivolous. However, I should not be indulging this ridiculous derail, given that a nearly-complete product has leaked, we've seen at least half of the art, and while the delays have been substantial, setbacks have been explained in excruciating detail (I wouldn't wish Morke's fate of heading such a contentious project while battling life-threatening illness on anyone) and everything indicates that the developers have engaged in a good-faith effort to complete the game. While I disagree with a lot of the choices made with Ex3's Kickstarter and subsequent development, I honestly don't think the developers are guilty of anything more than perhaps naivete and overconfidence. And to stop the ridiculous Kickstarter memes that are going around, it is basically like a preorder, but it's doubtful that you'd have legal recourse if you pre-ordered a game and it kept missing the release date for a couple years or so while there was material evidence it was still being made. A lot of stuff about Kickstarter refers to their old TOS which had to be edited after some successful lawsuits against project creators found there did in fact exist an obligation to deliver on backer rewards.
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Apr 1, 2015 15:27
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Transient People posted:Let me tell you the story of a certain videogame... To put in in perspective, Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition was only funded about a month after Exalted and is only now going through printing, so not a huge amount less time than Exalted and as far as I'm aware the changes Call of Cthulhu went through this edition are a lot less dramatic. Point is this delay isn't actually a huge exception.
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Apr 1, 2015 18:08
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