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paragon1 posted:You forgot "Shoot ally in the back" The moon exploding isn't directly their fault per say afawk. The war itself we don't know much about the particulars of it to really judge if there was any ethnic cleansing involved. The initial landings were likely similar in destruction to nuking a city but at most that's roughly ~18 cities (only half landed iirc) and for the most part I don't think they went out of their way to kill civilians. Also the Earth lost a few billion and is probably a little depopulated at the moment.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:13
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That's a funny way to dance around how to properly define the mass slaughter of at the very least those hundreds of millions who were struck by all of those Martian colony drops. And yes I realize that's the technically incorrect term, too, but it gets the point across. Which illustrates a point about paragon1's choice of words and your nitpicking thereof. Also, you're very wrong about one thing. Vers did, specifically, go out of their way to kill civilians by deliberately targeting civilian population centers.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:The moon exploding isn't directly their fault per say afawk. The war itself we don't know much about the particulars of it to really judge if there was any ethnic cleansing involved. The initial landings were likely similar in destruction to nuking a city but at most that's roughly ~18 cities (only half landed iirc) and for the most part I don't think they went out of their way to kill civilians. The moon exploding is pretty much directly Vers' fault, considering that they're the ones who instigated the conflict in the first place in the name of conquest. Also I don't know how you can say "I don't think they went out of their way to kill civilians" when a bunch of them specifically opted to drop their landing castles into the middle of enormous population centers. Mazuurek, the "good guy" Orbital Knight, is shown to have plopped his castle out in the middle of nowhere presumably to avoid civilian casualties.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:42
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I kid, but seriously, swanky uniforms have the ability to give people a mental blind spot to overlook atrocity on a scale the likes of which exceed even the most horrible acts of wanton brutality in human history. There was even a Zeon sympathizer in the Gundam thread, and their uniforms are notably less swanky than those who came after them.
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Mar 22, 2015 07:49
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People just really dig Space Traitors
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Mar 22, 2015 07:51
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Next fight? It's totally the final battle! Build up? what the gently caress is that? ... FINAL BATTLE!
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Mar 22, 2015 07:58
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-Now, Inko, please come to the enemy base that is on full alert, park your robot in level 34-E and wait for me five minutes, will ya? -okey-dokey!
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Mar 22, 2015 08:01
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When making the other side pay for their crimes would basically entail starting up the war again, I suspect that Earth would, at least at the institutional level, not press the issue too hard.
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Mar 22, 2015 08:21
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Paracelsus posted:When making the other side pay for their crimes would basically entail starting up the war again, I suspect that Earth would, at least at the institutional level, not press the issue too hard. Since any peace that results from this will probably still involve both sides being almost entirely militarily intact, you're almost assuredly right.
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Mar 22, 2015 08:24
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There were a few really good moments in that episode that were unfortunately overshadowed by .Clash posted:"The final battle is finally here." Asseylum throwing down the gauntlet was a cool moment though. Though maybe a little overwrought. Maybe.
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Mar 22, 2015 16:45
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Kanos posted:The moon exploding is pretty much directly Vers' fault, considering that they're the ones who instigated the conflict in the first place in the name of conquest. Also I don't know how you can say "I don't think they went out of their way to kill civilians" when a bunch of them specifically opted to drop their landing castles into the middle of enormous population centers. Mazuurek, the "good guy" Orbital Knight, is shown to have plopped his castle out in the middle of nowhere presumably to avoid civilian casualties. It isn't like we haven't done something similar before, not withstanding Hiroshima, Dresden, and Nagasaki. Using the equivalent of nuclear weapons to kick in the door in order to win quickly isn't genocide (The Cold War saw planners adopt similar plans for conventional fighting). I agree its probably war crimes use using the Nuremberg precedent and by McNamara's assessment that proportionality should be a guideline; on the other hand 18~ or so cities considering the scale is the whole world is probably far less destruction than the bombing campaigns of Japan. As for the moon by fault I mean liability in terms of what, should the UEF be completely victorious be able to charge the Counts with in a war crimes tribunal. There isn't enough evidence to assign culpability to any of the Vers Counts; we as the audience don't even know and we have most of the facts.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:20
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Short of total subjugation of Earth or absolutely everyone dying there can't be a meaningful conclusion. Earth leadership has not at all been demonstrated to be interested in lasting peace, any cessation of hostilities is only temporary until there is good opportunity to slaughter all those martian assholes.
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Mar 22, 2015 22:00
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Lostconfused posted:Short of total subjugation of Earth or absolutely everyone dying there can't be a meaningful conclusion. Earth leadership has not at all been demonstrated to be interested in lasting peace, any cessation of hostilities is only temporary until there is good opportunity to slaughter all those martian assholes. I was predicting that Asseylum, Cruheto, and the other guy join up with Team Eyenaho, she brands everyone on Team Slaine a traitor, a bunch of people switch sides, Slaine gets his poo poo wrecked, she pardons him because she still likes him, Slaine and Inaho somehow make up, Team Asseylum takes over Earth and Vers. Also, someone dies. Probably Slaine.
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Mar 22, 2015 22:09
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Lostconfused posted:Short of total subjugation of Earth or absolutely everyone dying there can't be a meaningful conclusion. Earth leadership has not at all been demonstrated to be interested in lasting peace, any cessation of hostilities is only temporary until there is good opportunity to slaughter all those martian assholes. Meh, earth command is so dead. They'll get the Moon dropped on them or something.
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Mar 22, 2015 22:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:It isn't like we haven't done something similar before, not withstanding Hiroshima, Dresden, and Nagasaki. Using the equivalent of nuclear weapons to kick in the door in order to win quickly isn't genocide (The Cold War saw planners adopt similar plans for conventional fighting). I agree its probably war crimes use using the Nuremberg precedent and by McNamara's assessment that proportionality should be a guideline; on the other hand 18~ or so cities considering the scale is the whole world is probably far less destruction than the bombing campaigns of Japan.  Are you seriously arguing the people who regularly talk about killing all the Terrans haven't spent the months since the landings killing lots of Terrans? Seriously?One of the first instances of us seeing Count Nice Guy in action is him being pressured to wipe out a bunch of civilians, ffs. There wouldn't be a war crimes tribunal because any Earth military that conquers Mars is probably going to kill every last Martian from orbit if they can. Your talking about a group of people that betrayed the entire rest of the human race, and then launched a war of conquest and eventually extermination against it. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 23:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:It isn't like we haven't done something similar before, not withstanding Hiroshima, Dresden, and Nagasaki. Using the equivalent of nuclear weapons to kick in the door in order to win quickly isn't genocide (The Cold War saw planners adopt similar plans for conventional fighting). I agree its probably war crimes use using the Nuremberg precedent and by McNamara's assessment that proportionality should be a guideline; on the other hand 18~ or so cities considering the scale is the whole world is probably far less destruction than the bombing campaigns of Japan. Most of the pictured Vers counts vocally stated their opinions on Earthlings being subhuman filth fit only to be exterminated; Mazuurek's first appearance and foray into combat is when he's pressured by Marylcian and Barohcruz(who are both shown to be massively contemptuous of Terran life, Marylcian especially) to prove that he's a true Orbital Knight and take off the kid gloves to go grab some land. When the UEF HQ was being hit at the end of the first part Yuki mentions "If this place falls, the Terran race will probably go extinct". The Orbital Knights were waging an expressly stated campaign of genocide to secure lebensraum and resources for Vers citizens; that's their entire fundamental reasoning for prosecuting the war from the word go. The war in Aldnoah isn't one of negotiation between states or political revolution, it's one of one-sided aggression and attempted extermination/mass genocide on the part of Vers and a frantic, desperate attempt at survival on the part of the UEF. Even Saazbaum, who hated the royal family of Vers with a passion, agreed with that. Kanos fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 01:47
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paragon1 posted:
I don't doubt that lots of people have died since the war has begun. I am just being skeptical (healthy skepticism) of anything we don't directly see or otherwise elaborated on screen. Almost every scene of the Counts doing any sort of operation has been against valid military targets, I don't recall instances of them being alleged to have gone after population centers purely to wipe them out beyond the initial landing zones. quote:One of the first instances of us seeing Count Nice Guy in action is him being pressured to wipe out a bunch of civilians, ffs. I don't remember exactly what was said, is there a quote? The city he was heading towards had valid military targets. quote:There wouldn't be a war crimes tribunal because any Earth military that conquers Mars is probably going to kill every last Martian from orbit if they can. Your talking about a group of people that betrayed the entire rest of the human race, and then launched a war of conquest and eventually extermination against it. The Germans in WWII are our closest analogue if the brutality we're expecting is true, the Soviets took some degree of vengeance when passing through on their way to Berlin but didn't do what your suggesting here; I think the secrets of the Aldnoah technology would likely deter glassing Mars and politics will take over as it always does.
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Mar 23, 2015 02:36
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What military targets? The ones that arrived to stop him? Going by your standard, the only thing in that city was a market place full of unarmed civilians and several homes. I'm not going to track down the episode and watch through it to provide an exact quote for you. It was something about them thanking him for his service, but man he really isn't attacking those Terrans enough. Your also assuming the Martians know absolutely anything of value about Aldnoah tech other than how to use it, which the protagonists have amply demonstrated you don't really need a tutor to accomplish. This is all beside my original point, which was "Boy the Martians sure don't seem like they're going to suffer any negative consequences for all that mass murdering of civilians they did." Which you took exception to for some strange reason. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 03:35
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Team Empress-rear end and Team iNaho join up and call for peace, no one listens to them. Slaine burns earth, possibly by driving the moon into it since why not. The survivors set off to search for the Vers homeworld as a new home, which the Empress claims to know the location of. To be continued in Aldnoah.Galactica!
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Mar 23, 2015 03:45
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paragon1 posted:What military targets? The ones that arrived to stop him? Going by your standard, the only thing in that city was a market place full of unarmed civilians and several homes. That city, Aden (iirc), was quite clearly also home to a major refueling station and is where Mariko's unit was stationed. That's clearly a valid target. quote:I'm not going to track down the episode and watch through it to provide an exact quote for you. It was something about them thanking him for his service, but man he really isn't attacking those Terrans enough. As I understand it the count in question was in general not being aggressive and focusing on consolidating his hold on the resources in his zone; not attacking the terrans depending on the words said could just mean in a general sense not working towards pursuing victory. If I were Patton and Montgomery was taking his sweet time focusing on restoring civilian infrastructure in his zone he'd also be pissed and probably use similar language. "GO GET THEM HUNS AND SHOW EM WHOSE BOSS". quote:Your also assuming the Martians know absolutely anything of value about Aldnoah tech other than how to use it, which the protagonists have amply demonstrated you don't really need a tutor to accomplish. I like studying the UN and looking at the history of international institutions since Nuremberg; its one thing to say "Man they aren't going to suffer negative consequences" which is a sensible statement, its another to say they'll get away with genocide; these statements are night and day. I'd like to think fiction could serve a nice role in exploring the nature and differences between legal acts of war, proportionality, and the depiction of war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity and where does one draw the line in differentiating them. Is peace more valuable than justice? Can we always make that call even when technology and circumstances change? I don't believe the UFE has it in them to chase Vers back to Mars; we've met with and seen plenty of people and there seems to be a wide separation in concerns.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:50
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Honestly a lot of the lack of detail with regards to the Earth situation I write off as the writers being lazy and uninterested in anything that isn't Martian Melodrama. The reason why the Earth situation is vague is because the show simply doesn't care. All we see of Earth is usually just lifeless ruins and occasionally a nice pastoral scene, or a featureless desert. Also, I still maintain that it's a matter of splitting hairs when we're debating exactly "when" is the appropriate time to call a force "genocidal" after they deliberately target the last remaining major civilian population centers of a half-dead world (that's half dead directly because of actions they took) in an attempt to exterminate the bulk, then subjugate the remainder. The double flush of near-Earth extermination, as it were. These are the cities essentially meteor-struck by Vers:  The destructive force of one Landing Castle was enough to vaporize an entire city, something not even America's nukes managed to do (which I'm sure disappointed some brass in the Pentagon back then). Taken separately from any strategic or even narrative context, a comparison to the US' still-controversial nuclear actions at the end of WW2 ends poorly for Vers in terms of sheer numbers and level of destruction. Taken in context, Vers looks even worse. So from a strictly legal and technical standpoint, "Vers is genocidal" is incorrect. But as a point of rhetoric it's both close enough to make sense (given the Martians' own rhetoric) and it puts the scale of their actions, and sometimes the indirect results of their actions, into perspective. Nitpicking that distinction accomplishes little, especially since doing so misses the point of the statement to begin with. paragon1 posted:What military targets? The ones that arrived to stop him? Going by your standard, the only thing in that city was a market place full of unarmed civilians and several homes. The only thing we see are military targets or what would have been civilian targets had the civilians not already been slaughtered en masse before the fighting actually began. And it's quite true, the writers aren't concerned about the mass slaughter of potentially billions of people, very few viewers are (nobody discusses it). The state of the world is horrifying if you think about it and not whitewash what actually happened, but the show gives us very little reason to. So, you know, whatever. I was just too busy gawking at how Seylum is on a marriage rampage and how Ace Chauffeur Inko-chan finally has a chance to win the robot of her dreams. And the boy attached to him.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:56
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T.G. Xarbala posted:These are the cities essentially meteor-struck by Vers: This is what I was getting at, thanks for pulling the picture. The destruction of the three cities in China alone, assuming 2015 population levels(in the show they're almost assuredly less because a lot of people already died in Heaven's Fall), rates a death toll greater than the combined total death toll incurred for World War 2 across all sides. The scale of the atrocity that Vers's invasion represents is totally unmatched in human history and if war crimes trials ala Nuremburg occurred you'd pretty much see every single Orbital Knight of any rank executed for what amounts to attempted species extinction. Even the ones who didn't directly drop their castles onto major population centers are culpable. It's like when people try to stand up for Zeon in Gundam because there's a lot of nice, human guys in Zeon while ignoring that Zeon as a faction mass-murdered quite literally over half of humanity.
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Mar 23, 2015 05:15
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They left India alone so at least ~1.2 billion Terrans are fine.
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Mar 23, 2015 06:59
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genericnick posted:Meh, earth command is so dead. They'll get the Moon dropped on them or something. - Earth command gets destroyed until the Deucalion is the highest ranking unit left - The old emperor randomly dies - Lemrina doesn't do anything stupid - Some kind of showdown between Slaine and Inaho -->Peace?
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Mar 23, 2015 08:10
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SC Bracer posted:They left India alone so at least ~1.2 billion Terrans are fine. On a similar note, apparently none of the Orbital Knights were willing to directly attack the Isle of Cornwall. I've done some sums, and have come to the conclusion that this means at least 1.2 billion plus twelve Terrans managed to survive the Great Reverse Mars Landing.
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Mar 23, 2015 08:18
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SC Bracer posted:They left India alone so at least ~1.2 billion Terrans are fine. Most of them probably got swept away when the Moon rocks dropped.
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Mar 23, 2015 09:48
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Eeeh. That was quite the wet fart.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:24
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darkgray posted:Eeeh. That was quite the wet fart. Whaaat? I thought that was a great episode, and imo the entire series has been good even if it deviated a bit from what it was originally like (s1). Also ha ha Asseylum made a better Relena Peacecraft than Relena herself. The fights in this episode were awesome, I think my favorite thing about the fights in this show are that the trump cards are never used like AHA YOUVE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD. When Inaho needed a ballistic shield while reeling in the Tharsis, he didnt spend 30 minutes talking about how he got upgrades and poo poo, he just did it. When his blades broke he didn't waste time acting surprised or springing an "aha" moment on Slaine, he just pulled out more. The whole thing felt very fluid and organic, pretty cool episode.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:04
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Man, that was a letdown.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:06
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That was kind of a mess in every respect save visually. The fights were good and cinematic, but neither the show as a whole nor individual characters had anything approaching a coherent arc thematically. War is... bad? Princess who loves Earth and will do anything for peace... loves Earth and will do anything for peace? Overbearingly stoic genius protagonist... still doesn't really show feelings and only makes right decisions? Misguided loner... still misguided and alone? In the end, Andnoah didn't do anything interesting, though it was fun to watch. I guess it dramatically pointed guns at a lot of people. Oh, and what's-his-alcoholic-face had decent growth, though it was mostly contained in the first season.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:13
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Yes_Cantaloupe posted:That was kind of a mess in every respect save visually. The fights were good and cinematic, but neither the show as a whole nor individual characters had anything approaching a coherent arc thematically. War is... bad? Princess who loves Earth and will do anything for peace... loves Earth and will do anything for peace? Overbearingly stoic genius protagonist... still doesn't really show feelings and only makes right decisions? Misguided loner... still misguided and alone? In the end, Andnoah didn't do anything interesting, though it was fun to watch. I guess it dramatically pointed guns at a lot of people. Oh, and what's-his-alcoholic-face had decent growth, though it was mostly contained in the first season. They put a lot of emphasis on characters in season one that they pretty much omitted from season two, other than a few shots of them giving commands and shooting at stuff.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:17
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There Bias Two posted:They put a lot of emphasis on characters in season one that they pretty much omitted from season two, other than a few shots of them giving commands and shooting at stuff. Yeah, pretty much all the adult characters dropped away except for making that bad joke about not getting a boyfriend and, as you say, commanding and shooting.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:23
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that was bad
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Mar 28, 2015 19:27
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autist fights super robots in a generic mech was fun for a while in season 1 and slaine playing the game of space thrones was fun for a while in season 2 but overall it was a whole lot of nothing
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Mar 28, 2015 19:28
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durarara's killer ending episode made the whole thing look way worse by comparison too
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Mar 28, 2015 19:29
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What a boring cop out of a second season. At least it was a well produced and directed one. Script writer was clearly out of his depth.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:23
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I like the robot fight and Big Boss Inaho but everything else was the same giant 'meh' as the rest of the second season. I don't know why they even bothered with half of the returning first season cast because they did nothing of note at all. I'm glad the credits reminded me how much better the first season opening music was though.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:26
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Boy that love triangle they've been developing for two seasons sure went somewhere.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:27
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I have a feeling that ending was largely owed to fujoshi pandering. Inaho and Slaine both alive and talking to each other and neither hooked up with the princess?
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Mar 28, 2015 20:31
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nah i'm pretty sure it was just badly written rather than subscribing to a crazy conspiracy theory
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Mar 28, 2015 20:34
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