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Clawshrimpy posted:I've seen enough of Gundam to make that generalization. What is "confrontationalist stuff?" What even is that? Also, what makes everyone unlikable to you? Why does every single character in the metaseries share this set of qualities? I didn't want to make a tangent on it, but it ties back to what other posters were getting on your case about earlier and will continue to. The way you express your points is so simplified, vague, and narrow-minded that how could people not take issue with what you say. And yeah I totally believe you've sat in front of over 100 hours of Gundam, but I don't think you put too much thought into it if you can nonchalantly just lump it all into the same category. Also we share the opinion that a lot of Gundam recycles the same issues and character archetypes, but surely you can see a difference in how they treat the characters and setting. Like, SEED is almost literally a retelling of the original series, but you can understand why people may have issues with SEED but not the original, right? Likewise, there are reasons people may prefer SEED to the original.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:57
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CS doesn't like it when people argue all the time instead of getting on.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:01
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Zeta Gundam is really cool and I like all the characters in it a lot. Sure, everyone in Zeta has issues and so they tend to punch each other sometimes. But thats basically life (and gundam).
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Mar 28, 2015 20:13
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And since Gundam is based on the WWII Japanese Navy things like officers punching their subordinates to "correct" or "motivate" them is just a thing that happens. Early UC Gundam also, at least in part, seems to be a way to help the children of Japanese soldiers come to grips with the fact that the parents they know and loved can still be good people even though they may have worked for or supported a political power that did some monstrous things. Oh I see why ClawShrimpy doesn't like Gundam now.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:24
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Awaiting Clawshrimpy's analysis of Fullmetal Alchemist.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:36
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Iserlohn posted:What is "confrontationalist stuff?" What even is that? Also, what makes everyone unlikable to you? Why does every single character in the metaseries share this set of qualities? It's basically an endless loop that will never be broken at this rate. People in media who even show a mild personality flaw that he doesn't like (Being violent, using physical means to correct someone's behavior, putting the needs of the many over the few, etc), the character isn't worth being "sympathetic/empathetic" to. This thread alone has proved he'll go on a massive hate train on fictional characters if they do things real people would, regardless of circumstance, as long as they're remotely tipping towards his scale of what is evil. While Tomino doesn't write how people act very well in some shows, a lot of the actions he has them do are logical for the situation, but evil on the gauge he uses. This core thing pretty much lies at the heart of why a lot of people cannot tolerate his posts, but when pointed out he either ignores it or just doesn't get it.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:39
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Which is weird considering he reportedly liked Jin despite being one of the chief enforcers of a fascist commercial state.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:48
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Overman king Gainers Episode 12 So this episode is just plain weird. but it feels like it's not supposed to make sense as it ends of a cliffhanger leadeing into the next episode so I guess that's to be expected. At the start of the episode we at least get to see Gainer questioning things about what the Exodus is actually supposed to accomplish and asserting he doesn't like this situation, which is certainly nice over this whole bunch of episodes we've seen up to this point where after "learning his lesson" from Gain he just did whatever people asked him to. SO it's good that came up again, but sadly that doesn't last as the rest of the episode is mostly more of the same stuff. So they come across some Stonehenge-like ruins they call "Meeyah's town" after the first Exodus Meeyah was involved in after the world got screwed up, however the geological expedition comes to a halt when Asuham shows up to Capture Gain, piloting the chakram-using Golame-type Overman again. His advisor guy also shows up and gives a flashback where Asuham has pretty much went rogue and his disobeying his goverment to pursue Gain, and when someone as bad as Gain is still at large, it's pretty understandable. So this episodes just seems like any other Overman fight, but things get weird when they find this sleeping dinosaur thing that Gain seems to recognize. Well, Asuham wakes it up and the thing starts using Overskills. (gravity control to lift the rocks, also can create a black hole thing) So apparently it's revealed this is actually an ancient Overman from the days of Meeyah's first Exodus. However, even when Sara gets in the cockpit of this Overman (called Brunhilde by Gain) there doesn't seem to be any stopping it, no matter how hard Gainer, Asuham and the others try. Then after creating the black hole thing, it activates this yellow question mark on all the rocks, as well as on the arm of the Gotchko, which Gain eventually approaches Brunhilde and says that Gotchko's arm is Brunhilde's missing arm, as we see that one of Brunhilde's arms have been cut off. So I guess stealing arms from ancient sentient overmen can be added to the list of jerk things Gain has done. In addition to where Gain tells Gainer to distract Asuham while he deals with Brunhilde, and Gainer just stright up tells him "Hey why don't YOU distract Asuham, you're the wanted man." and Gain is all like "I thought we were friends" Gain, if you think you and Gainer are still friends after all the poo poo you put him through, you need to learn how the world works. Oh by the way this is where the episode cuts off. Oh well. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 21:11
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So I have a question that I don't think has been asked before. I know you dislike Gain, and while I have my own opinions on your reasons for doing so, I'm not going to try and convince you to start liking him. What I do want to know, however, is whether or not you think there's any possibility of him being redeemed as a character. Have Gain's actions been so despicable that it is impossible for him to atone?
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Mar 28, 2015 21:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:Gain, if you think you and Gainer are still friends after all the poo poo you put him through, you need to learn how the world works. What a beautiful example of irony.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:22
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glomkettle posted:So I have a question that I don't think has been asked before. I know you dislike Gain, and while I have my own opinions on your reasons for doing so, I'm not going to try and convince you to start liking him. What I do want to know, however, is whether or not you think there's any possibility of him being redeemed as a character. Have Gain's actions been so despicable that it is impossible for him to atone? I dunno. There have been episodes where Gain has tried to do good things, but it gets buried under more awful things later. the episode where he treats the dying guy is followed immediately with the episode where he goads Gainer into the boxing match.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:37
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it's almost like he's a human being with both good and bad things about him, and it's impossible to dismiss him as 'evil' or sing his praises as a righteous hero.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:40
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Endorph posted:it's almost like he's a human being with both good and bad things about him, and it's impossible to dismiss him as 'evil' or sing his praises as a righteous hero. Except in Gain's case, of of these things clearly outweighs the other.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:42
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Yosuke posted:While Tomino doesn't write how people act very well in some shows, a lot of the actions he has them do are logical for the situation, but evil on the gauge he uses. I've always felt Tomino has a somewhat Tin Ear for dialogue, but I also think he's a decent character writer. I'm not sure if it's the subs but there's some bits of Victory Gundam where people don't quite sound like real people even if they do generally act like real people. Actually now that I'm thinking of V Gundam I'm reminded of Katejina, now there's someone you could generally call "evil" beyond the pale unlike someone like Gain. Clawshrimpy posted:Except in Gain's case, of of these things clearly outweighs the other. Not to me, and from the looks of this topic not to quite a lot of other people on the board. Shrimpy it's worth pointing out yet again that your perceptions of the world are not universal. When you say broad things like that people give you pushback because you're assuming as given things that are clear to you but which are not clear to anyone else.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:42
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except in Gain's case, of of these things clearly outweighs the other. Most people would say the helping the dying man outweights the boxing thing by so much that it becomes negligible to his character, so yea, I guess that's true - just not the way you intended.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:43
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except in Gain's case, of of these things clearly outweighs the other. You're right, the good outweighs the bad.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:50
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You're right, the good outweighs the bad. No, it's the complete opposite! the bad outweighs the very small good things he does!
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Mar 28, 2015 21:51
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Omnicrom posted:I've always felt Tomino has a somewhat Tin Ear for dialogue, but I also think he's a decent character writer. I'm not sure if it's the subs but there's some bits of Victory Gundam where people don't quite sound like real people even if they do generally act like real people. Actually now that I'm thinking of V Gundam I'm reminded of Katejina, now there's someone you could generally call "evil" beyond the pale unlike someone like Gain. The Victory Gundam fansubs are pretty iffy and have some really dodgy grammar to boot. Which kinda serves to make an odd show even odder.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:54
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Saving a man from dying: very small good. Punching the protagonist in a structured, safe space such that he stops hiding from the world and begins to interact with it: overwhelming evil. Got it.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:54
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Omnicrom posted:I've always felt Tomino has a somewhat Tin Ear for dialogue, but I also think he's a decent character writer. I'm not sure if it's the subs but there's some bits of Victory Gundam where people don't quite sound like real people even if they do generally act like real people. Actually now that I'm thinking of V Gundam I'm reminded of Katejina, now there's someone you could generally call "evil" beyond the pale unlike someone like Gain. The best way to explain is with the situations he gives you, the actions people will take make sense. His dialogue tends to be either lost in the nonsense of the action, or through the subs. Whether or not the way the character comes up good or not is subjective, but I don't doubt he's able to clearly make a bit of sense what he wants to convey. And you heard it here folks, snapping an emotional teen out of depression is worth more than saving a dying man
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Mar 28, 2015 21:57
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Yosuke posted:The best way to explain is with the situations he gives you, the actions people will take make sense. His dialogue tends to be either lost in the nonsense of the action, or through the subs. Whether or not the way the character comes up good or not is subjective, but I don't doubt he's able to clearly make a bit of sense what he wants to convey. It's not just that, Gain is bad way more often than he is good.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:58
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I like how an episode after Gain coldly advocates euthanasia for those too far gone to save, we have him literally racing across the whole city on the rumored off-chance that there are some medical supplies left capable of saving someone in critical condition - almost as though he's not as aloof as he pretends to be and desperately wants to avoid the worst case solution he himself prescribed. What a dick.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:It's not just that, Gain is bad way more often than he is good. And we've already pointed out your definition of bad is hosed up with no acknowledgement on that point at all.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:No, it's the complete opposite! the bad outweighs the very small good things he does! Once again Shrimpy, your perspective is not universal, your personal hang-ups are not the ideal standard of morality, and you really need to stop assuming otherwise. To me, tsob, AzraelNewtype, ZenMasterBullshit, Yosuke, Bad Seafood, and any number of other posters in this thread Gain is a good person by the algebra that the act of saving a man's life far outweighs the boxing match. Me and some or all of the above might even consider the Boxing Match to be a positive action, it was harsh but it was also necessary and brought about a positive result. Yosuke posted:The best way to explain is with the situations he gives you, the actions people will take make sense. His dialogue tends to be either lost in the nonsense of the action, or through the subs. Whether or not the way the character comes up good or not is subjective, but I don't doubt he's able to clearly make a bit of sense what he wants to convey. I understand this perfectly. Like I said I think Tomino is a good character writer, and I think that even if some combination of subs or writing makes their dialogue bad he's still good at writing motivations and actions for human beings..
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Mar 28, 2015 22:03
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Bad Seafood posted:I like how an episode after Gain coldly advocates euthanasia for those too far gone to save, we have him literally racing across the whole city on the rumored off-chance that there are some medical supplies left capable of saving someone in critical condition - almost as though he's not as aloof as he pretends to be and desperately wants to avoid the worst case solution he himself prescribed. You're forgetting that Sara had to twist his arm to get him to do it.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:03
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If informing someone of options they didn't previously know they had constitutes twisting their arm, people twist my arm every day of my life.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:07
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Omnicrom posted:Once again Shrimpy, your perspective is not universal, your personal hang-ups are not the ideal standard of morality, and you really need to stop assuming otherwise. To me, tsob, AzraelNewtype, ZenMasterBullshit, Yosuke, Bad Seafood, and any number of other posters in this thread Gain is a good person by the algebra that the act of saving a man's life far outweighs the boxing match. Me and some or all of the above might even consider the Boxing Match to be a positive action, it was harsh but it was also necessary and brought about a positive result. Exxcept it doesn't maybe saving one person's life does not give you a moral free pass to otherwise be a bully or rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:11
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Bad Seafood posted:If informing someone of options they didn't previously know they had constitutes twisting their arm, people twist my arm every day of my life. More importantly Sarah said "We might have some", not "I know for sure we have some", and Gain's immediately response is "Get a coat from the back and don't fall off, we're rolling". Gain was immediately willing to drop everything on the off chance of saving someone. Clawshrimpy posted:Exxcept it doesn't maybe saving one person's life does not give you a moral free pass to otherwise be a bully or rear end in a top hat. The problem Shrimpy is that I see Gain as neither a bully nor even an rear end in a top hat. You do, but many other people do not. Therein lies the problem.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:13
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It's a points system wherein each "good" action earns one point and each "evil" action earns one point. saving dying man = 1 good point letting kid get punched in face = 1 evil point All actions are equal regardless of merit, no grey areas exist. Good vs evil is decided only via frequency of acts
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Mar 28, 2015 22:14
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Clawshrimpy posted:Exxcept it doesn't maybe saving one person's life does not give you a moral free pass to otherwise be a bully or rear end in a top hat. Here you go using that whole "I don't like him therefore he's completely irredeemable" line of thought again. Jumpin' through hoops here to try and show us your point that he's a bad person when pretty much everyone else is just going "Wow, you're really overblowing this". Pretty much halfway through the show, only lesson you have learned towards improvement was "maybe there's another word for evil" but not seeing the underlying issue we have with you still.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:16
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Namtab posted:It's a points system wherein each "good" action earns one point and each "evil" action earns one point.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:16
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Omnicrom posted:The problem Shrimpy is that I see Gain as neither a bully nor even an rear end in a top hat. You do, but many other people do not. Therein lies the problem. Well, I don't know how it could be viewed any other way, Gain kept bugging Gainer till he fought him, dragged Sara into it, and it was 100 percent an older, bigger, stronger, more experienced person just loving picking on someone unprepared/ill-equipped to deal with that! It's almost as bad as the Kamina and Simon stuff, I say almost as bad because at least Gainer was given a very meager means to stand up for himself where Simon just took the abuse, but it was still awful.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:20
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I don't think you quite "get" morality.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:21
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Namtab posted:It's a points system wherein each "good" action earns one point and each "evil" action earns one point. And let's not forget evil outweighs good regardless of the degree used here. So every evil action is worth at least 5 good.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:22
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Namtab posted:I don't think you quite "get" morality.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:22
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I'm going to watch this anime.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:24
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Namtab posted:It's a points system wherein each "good" action earns one point and each "evil" action earns one point. Ah so we got a Bioware writer.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:24
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Endorph posted:he also doesn't quite 'get' what bullying and abuse actually are Oh, really? If you knew me a little better than some guy you argue with on the internet with, you wouldn't be so quick to say that.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:25
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Namtab posted:I'm going to watch this anime. You should, King Gainer is quite good and both Gain and Gainer are great protagonists.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:27
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Yosuke posted:And let's not forget evil outweighs good regardless of the degree used here. So every evil action is worth at least 5 good. Well, unless you are a villain, then any good you do is worth almost infinity times any evil you do. Acting to enforce a fascist junta that extorts it's own people? 1 evil point. Save a young girl from physical abuse? 10, 000, 000 good points, why isn't this guy the main character's big brother figure? Oh god, he's such a cool guy. It's like looking at the Nazis, finding some random middle of the pack officer who was courteous to women, respectful to his elders and even once saved the lives of some random folks he found being beset in the street and eulogizing him as a role model for everyone despite the fact that after saving those guys lives he went back to the SS barracks, cracked some jokes about how Jews are lovely people and then helped plan a raid on the Allies while dismissing an Allied officer as a horrible monster because he let some of his own scouts get killed to ensure that the main group weren't found while sneaking in to enemy territory. Sure, when looking at individual acts you could draw that morality lesson, but when you look at the overall picture it's a lot easier for most people to sympathize with the Allied guy because he was trying to take down Nazis, regardless of whatever individual acts he did. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 22:30
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