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Oh yeah, I'm not trying to imply that it's okay that Indiana passed this law because other states have it too or that people shouldn't be upset. It's a lovely law, and there is a practical difference between actively passing a law versus keeping an existing one in terms of optics. Indiana passing this looks and feels worse in the face of protest than it would if it had just been the status quo.
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Mar 28, 2015 15:48
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whydirt posted:Oh yeah, I'm not trying to imply that it's okay that Indiana passed this law because other states have it too or that people shouldn't be upset. It's a lovely law, and there is a practical difference between actively passing a law versus keeping an existing one in terms of optics. Indiana passing this looks and feels worse in the face of protest than it would if it had just been the status quo.
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Mar 28, 2015 15:55
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whydirt posted:What about the 19 other states that already have this law on the books? Are you boycotting them too? The cultural momentum on this issue has changed substantially in just the last few years. There was a big uproar last year when Arizona tried to pass a similar law. Also, some of these states also have laws specifically preventing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:00
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Imagined posted:The cultural momentum on this issue has changed substantially in just the last few years. There was a big uproar last year when Arizona tried to pass a similar law. Also, some of these states also have laws specifically preventing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:15
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The target isn't Gencon. The target is the state of Indiana, which enjoys $50 million/year in economic activity in Indianapolis from Gencon attendees. That Gencon suffers should not be relevant. The company made its choice, no matter how regretfully, but it isn't a loving charity, remember? It'll gross $4-5 million at the turnstiles and whatever exhibitors pay. It's full of perfectly nice people who I'm sure are upset about this, but you don't go to Gencon with nice words. You go with cash. It's just a for-profit convention. There are others. I'm still not quite following. I get that we don't owe Gencon anything, I was going before or after this law passed. My issue is that you're saying that boycotts are to convince moderate or left leaning businesses to act, rather than hardcore bigots. The state of Indiana are those bigots and for Gencon itself it isn't economically feasible to break contract. Who are you trying to force into action by boycotting? Who specifically are you trying to actually pressure? If it's the state of Indiana, the very bigots that passed the law, why bother giving that justification about trying to pressure progressives/moderates? If you just want to boycott anything and everything in Indiana because you don't think the bigots will stick to their guns then cool, that's a fairly solid train of thought. Most of them love their money more than their WASP sentiments. Just admit you're willing to harm decent people as collateral rather than pretending it's some sort of call to action for them.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:11
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PresidentBeard posted:I'm still not quite following. I get that we don't owe Gencon anything, I was going before or after this law passed. My issue is that you're saying that boycotts are to convince moderate or left leaning businesses to act, rather than hardcore bigots. The state of Indiana are those bigots and for Gencon itself it isn't economically feasible to break contract. Who are you trying to force into action by boycotting? Who specifically are you trying to actually pressure? If it's the state of Indiana, the very bigots that passed the law, why bother giving that justification about trying to pressure progressives/moderates? I don't think you understand how this law was passed, duder.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:12
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Effectronica posted:I don't think you understand how this law was passed, duder. If their were shenanigans please inform me. I was under the impression it was passed by bigots voted into office by other bigots.
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Mar 28, 2015 18:34
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As a for-profit corporation, GenCon is obligated to turn a profit. They can write all the letters they want, but if it turns out that attendance is unaffected then the pressure is on them to stick around no matter what their personal beliefs. By declining to attend Gencon while they're in Indiana, you're actually supporting their stance that the bill is bad for business and making it easier for their threat to pull out of the state to not be empty rhetoric.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:34
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"Maximizing shareholder value" isn't necessarily a requirement of operating businesses, unless the executives decide to make it one.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:40
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Pope Guilty posted:I'm not saying that boycotting GenCon is good or right or that it matters, just that "but it'll inconvenience innocent people!" is a dumb response to boycott calls. Well, yeah. I was pointing out that a larger economic sanction has already been implemented (Salesforce) and it didn't have an effect. A Gen Con boycott is meaningless because it won't work. The legislators who made the decision are far too ideologically driven and removed from the consequences of their actions. After all, the boycotts aren't targeting the smaller and more conservative districts that voted for these assholes. They're targeting the city, which is more liberal than the small towns and suburbs. Look at the 2012 election map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Indiana,_2012 edit: a rebuttal from a liberal resident of Indiana: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/03/stop.html clockworkjoe fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 28, 2015 |
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Mar 28, 2015 19:54
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Yeah the mayor of Indy and most of the tourism board type people are all already against it. Most people in rural Indiana could give a gently caress about what happens to Indy as long as the Colts still play there.
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Mar 28, 2015 19:57
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clockworkjoe posted:Well, yeah. I was pointing out that a larger economic sanction has already been implemented (Salesforce) and it didn't have an effect. A Gen Con boycott is meaningless because it won't work. The legislators who made the decision are far too ideologically driven and removed from the consequences of their actions. After all, the boycotts aren't targeting the smaller and more conservative districts that voted for these assholes. They're targeting the city, which is more liberal than the small towns and suburbs. Look at the 2012 election map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Indiana,_2012 I hear that when teachers strike little children--children yet!--don't learn. Better call that poo poo off too. Right? I have no sympathy, because this is standard issue, slippery slope capitulation. The notion that one only takes an action when the action itself will provide the total effect, and only if no precious innocent people are inconvenienced, is such blatant foot-shooting soft liberal self-defeat that it only deserves addressing because of the number of people who seem to hold these sorts of errant opinions. I get that nerds hate to hear that a small band of people don't make a difference, and that change doesn't happen according to an unambiguous narrative around a single action, but it's the truth. It doesn't matter that refusing to go to Indiana in spite of Gencon will not bring the state to its knees. It matters because it's one gesture in an ecosystem of them that supports and strengthens others. It doesn't matter that the Cool People of Indy stand to lose--their inconvenience is in fact as likely to drive change, because they are far more like to take matters up at the state level than people committed to anti-LGBTQ segregation. Once again though: This year? Things are too locked in. But as long as Indiana remains a state with legally sanctioned homophobic segregation, I believe you should avoid it in 2016, and limit your economic support of the state generally.
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Mar 28, 2015 20:20
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clockworkjoe posted:Well, yeah. I was pointing out that a larger economic sanction has already been implemented (Salesforce) and it didn't have an effect. A Gen Con boycott is meaningless because it won't work. The legislators who made the decision are far too ideologically driven and removed from the consequences of their actions. After all, the boycotts aren't targeting the smaller and more conservative districts that voted for these assholes. They're targeting the city, which is more liberal than the small towns and suburbs. Look at the 2012 election map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Indiana,_2012 A destroyed GenCon is a very, very big sign to other corporations, who will then in the near future have some sort of withdrawl capacity due to LGBT political risk. It is also well within the capacity of a group of maybe a half-dozen industry middle powers pulling out and being vocal about it.
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Mar 28, 2015 21:52
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Jimbozig posted:The person judging the contest gave only the cryptic comment "Don't do this," and then didn't respond to my PM asking what in particular I did wrong. So I was left not knowing if I'd actually written something legit offensive (which is certainly possible, even though I was trying not to be offensive), or if they were against addressing political/social concerns in gaming general, or if they were against feminism in gaming specifically. So I don't read SA much anymore and I missed this while it was new, but I was the one judging that contest, and, though it was a while ago, I distinctly remember that the reason I didn't respond to your PM was because it was 6 paragraphs of rambling where you started talking about hockey for god-knows-what reason.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:34
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whydirt posted:What about the 19 other states that already have this law on the books? Are you boycotting them too? No, because they're not imposing their religious freedom laws specifically to make it legal to discriminate against gays and most of them have at least some legal protections for the LGBAT community. Apparently Arkansas is trying to enact an RFRA-equivalent for the same reasons as Indiana, and if that goes through I'm sure people will boycott Arkansas, but a strong show of opposition for the Indiana law may dissuade them.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:45
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Jedit posted:No, because they're not imposing their religious freedom laws specifically to make it legal to discriminate against gays and most of them have at least some legal protections for the LGBAT community. Apparently Arkansas is trying to enact an RFRA-equivalent for the same reasons as Indiana, and if that goes through I'm sure people will boycott Arkansas, but a strong show of opposition for the Indiana law may dissuade them. I do not actually imagine Wal-Mart is the only important business in Arkansas, but there is undoubtedly a huge difference between Indiana and Arkansas in terms of how many businesses were planning to invest there anyway.
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Mar 28, 2015 22:47
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Asymmetrikon posted:So I don't read SA much anymore and I missed this while it was new, but I was the one judging that contest, and, though it was a while ago, I distinctly remember that the reason I didn't respond to your PM was because it was 6 paragraphs of rambling where you started talking about hockey for god-knows-what reason. I knew i didn't just dream it!
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Mar 28, 2015 22:50
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Quarex posted:That will be interesting, both because Arkansas should be scared off ... and yet ... they might do it anyway. Though it would be interesting as it would give Wal-Mart a chance, being the only important business in Arkansas, to decide if they wanted to go ahead and get on the right side of history. I have no doubt they could just be like "nope" and Arkansas would be like "OK!" Aren't the Waltons pretty big religious conservatives, though?
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Mar 28, 2015 22:54
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Jedit posted:No, because they're not imposing their religious freedom laws specifically to make it legal to discriminate against gays and most of them have at least some legal protections for the LGBAT community. Apparently Arkansas is trying to enact an RFRA-equivalent for the same reasons as Indiana, and if that goes through I'm sure people will boycott Arkansas, but a strong show of opposition for the Indiana law may dissuade them. This is the core issue. People, on the whole, don't have an issue with religious freedom, the issue is twisting it and adding in 'also religious freedom means that we can discriminate because we think that's how God rolls right?' Indiana, as far as I know, is the only one with that extra flavor on it.
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Mar 28, 2015 23:25
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MalcolmSheppard posted:I hear that when teachers strike little children--children yet!--don't learn. Better call that poo poo off too. Right? I have no sympathy, because this is standard issue, slippery slope capitulation. The notion that one only takes an action when the action itself will provide the total effect, and only if no precious innocent people are inconvenienced, is such blatant foot-shooting soft liberal self-defeat that it only deserves addressing because of the number of people who seem to hold these sorts of errant opinions. That was a terrible metaphor and missed my point entirely. My point is any generic boycott of all of Indiana won't influence Mike Pence and the GOP legislators that passed this law. They didn't care that Salesforce canceled their expansion plans and they won't care if Gen Con leaves. It won't hurt them at all. I think they WANT Gen Con to leave. They want everyone that disagrees with them to leave the state. They want a theocracy, which is easier to do if there's no opposition. Boycotts only work when they put pressure on the bad actor. When Rush Limbaugh insulted Sandra Fluke, a boycott of advertising companies hurt his bottom line and he was forced to apologize. If you want a meaningful boycott, find out what corporations give money to the politicians that voted for the law, publicize it and boycott them.
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Mar 28, 2015 23:41
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Calling for an immediate boycott of Gen Con is severely shortsighted, and shows a lack of understanding about the realities of the current situation. Gen Con signed a contract three years ago for Indianapolis to host the show from 2015 to 2020. Gen Con can't just break that contract, because they likely have a slew of contracts with other companies for that same period of time, logistics, shipping, printing, facilities etc. A show this size is a huge mass with a lot of momentum and it takes years to change course. Expecting them to face financial ruin over this issue is childish. Gen Con is just starting the long process of negotiating a host for it's next five years (2021-2025) and a strong show, with a growing attendance will give them more leverage in those negotiations, losing it will be a bigger stick to Indiana and gaining it will be a bigger carrot to other states. If in two years, this law is still in place as it stands now, AND Gen Con signs another five year contract with Indianapolis then it will be time to boycott the show
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Mar 29, 2015 00:08
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Yea there's literally nothing Gen Con can do in the short term, they have contracts until 2020 with (likely) tons of different people. Aside from being mad illegal it's also just a dick move to randomly decide 'yo this doesn't count BYE'. This isn't Jimmy's RPG Shop where worst case he has to run out his lease, they have tons of moving parts that involve the community around them that they have in writing because, ya know, professionals. Boycotting them does literally nothing, they've already said 'yea as soon as we can we're out if this law stays, we 100% denounce this lovely law'. They already agree 'yep, this is hosed', no reason to gently caress over the devs and all who are hoping for sales during that (or deprive yourself of a cool rear end con for nerdlords) when they're fully on our side. It's just an issue of legal red tape that can't really end with 'and Gen Con bailed out in the night never to be heard of again' since that's what scumbags do.
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Mar 29, 2015 00:14
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PresidentBeard posted:If their were shenanigans please inform me. I was under the impression it was passed by bigots voted into office by other bigots. You're missing all the people who don't actively seek to persecute LGBT people but don't care about it happening, who probably make up the majority of support for Mike Pence and who could be influenced by boycotts. You're also missing the possibility of getting Indianapolis to ban antigay discrimination in the city via economic pressure.
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Mar 29, 2015 00:38
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Yeah thinking about it you're right. Indianapolis issuing a local ordinance to stop LGBT discrimination would most likely be the easiest immediate solution.
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Mar 29, 2015 00:48
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clockworkjoe posted:That was a terrible metaphor and missed my point entirely. My point is any generic boycott of all of Indiana won't influence Mike Pence and the GOP legislators that passed this law. They didn't care that Salesforce canceled their expansion plans and they won't care if Gen Con leaves. It won't hurt them at all. I think they WANT Gen Con to leave. They want everyone that disagrees with them to leave the state. They want a theocracy, which is easier to do if there's no opposition. This is something a lot of people are sorta missing; this wasn't the mayor of the city who did it, it's the guy who hates that loving city because it's filled with heretics and sodomites. Mike Pence don't give a gently caress if the city is hurt. In fact good, gently caress that liberal bastion.
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Mar 29, 2015 00:57
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point of return posted:Aren't the Waltons pretty big religious conservatives, though? PresidentBeard posted:Yeah thinking about it you're right. Indianapolis issuing a local ordinance to stop LGBT discrimination would most likely be the easiest immediate solution. Illinoisians are just fortunate enough that Chicago is SUCH a big city that it can ignore the conservative parts of the state when doing things at a large scale. And I say this despite being from one of those parts that is somewhat conservative overall (though much more business-type-conservative than religious-type-conservative).
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Mar 29, 2015 02:00
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PresidentBeard posted:Yeah thinking about it you're right. Indianapolis issuing a local ordinance to stop LGBT discrimination would most likely be the easiest immediate solution. At the moment, Indianapolis has a "Human Right Ordinance" which "prohibits discrimination in employment, housing, education and public accommodations on the basis of a person's sexual orientation or gender identity." There's some talk of adding language to the ordinance that explicitly bars such discrimination under the guise of the new state law, but that would be a mostly rhetorical tool.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:35
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Asymmetrikon posted:So I don't read SA much anymore and I missed this while it was new, but I was the one judging that contest, and, though it was a while ago, I distinctly remember that the reason I didn't respond to your PM was because it was 6 paragraphs of rambling where you started talking about hockey for god-knows-what reason. Hey, fair enough. You were under no obligation to reply. And I can definitely ramble, I know, especially when I'm being sensitive about a topic, which I'm sure I was. My point was and is that if you attempt to push a feminist agenda explicitly in a setting, like I did, it will bother some people. Even some people who are also feminists. Your response was, I think, indicative of that fact. I was not trying to call you out or anything here (I didn't even remember who it was who said that) - like I said above, maybe your reaction was because of some finer point of feminism we disagree about while being on the same side generally, or maybe it was even because I legit hosed up and accidentally wrote something sexist despite my good intentions. I wish I still had that PM though so I could see what the gently caress I said about hockey. That sounds hilarious - I must've been pretty worked up. If you've still got it, I'd enjoy it if you'd PM it back to me so I can be reminded of why I should never post while angry. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 04:41
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Jimbozig posted:I wish I still had that PM though so I could see what the gently caress I said about hockey. That sounds hilarious - I must've been pretty worked up. If you've still got it, I'd enjoy it if you'd PM it back to me so I can be reminded of why I should never post while angry. Well, I remember your pm being shared around on IRC when it happened so somebody might have it
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Mar 29, 2015 05:15
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Bedlamdan posted:Well, I remember your pm being shared around on IRC when it happened so somebody might have it IRC sounds like a real cool place
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Mar 29, 2015 05:19
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Countblanc posted:IRC sounds like a real cool place it was on synirc but that's all I remember
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Mar 29, 2015 05:23
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Bedlamdan posted:Well, I remember your pm being shared around on IRC when it happened so somebody might have it Again, it was a while ago, but I'm pretty sure I didn't put it on IRC. I said something about it probably, but I think I just deleted it. Jimbozig posted:maybe your reaction was because of some finer point of feminism we disagree about while being on the same side generally, or maybe it was even because I legit hosed up and accidentally wrote something sexist despite my good intentions. If I remember, it was particularly odious wording that I objected to, rather than the actual concept.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:24
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So Gen Con released a further statement on the RFRA fiasco. Sounds like they're using whatever economic leverage they can short of breaking their contract altogether (which I have to imagine would cripple if not destroy the company) to put pressure on Indiana. I imagine the con's planned expansion would have meant a lot more money in the state's coffers.
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Mar 31, 2015 00:18
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Just in case you were wondering what the gold standard in introductory text is for a RPG supplement in TYOOL 2011, here's something I spotted today. That's the entirety of the introduction. That's comic sans. "Wyrmthane" is how the author is listed in the credits.
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Mar 31, 2015 05:55
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Mar 31, 2015 06:15
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I deeply appreciate what Gen Con is doing, especially in an hobby with an history of dealing with these sort of issues really badly. But how exactly are they planning on housing the attendees without the local hotels? I have never been to a Gen Con so I don't know how it normally works.
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Mar 31, 2015 08:25
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They're not changing anything about housing, they're just not going forward with plans to expand their events into the conference spaces of the nearby hotels.
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Mar 31, 2015 08:37
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clockworkjoe posted:edit: a rebuttal from a liberal resident of Indiana: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/03/stop.html lmao quoting Shakesville as if it has any kind of legitimacy. She thinks red-heads are discriminated against and says she gets gay people because she has a gay brain. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 12:03
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I posted this in the Gencon thread but the Mayor of Indianapolis signed an executive order to protect the rights of LGBT people in Indianapolis. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/30/greg-ballard_n_6972928.htmlNuns with Guns posted:lmao quoting Shakesville as if it has any kind of legitimacy. She thinks red-heads are discriminated against and says she gets gay people because she has a gay brain. She's one of those people who writes really bad gay "romance novels" and acts like she's blazing the trail for queer people everywhere, isn't she?
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Mar 31, 2015 14:52
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Nuns with Guns posted:lmao quoting Shakesville as if it has any kind of legitimacy. She thinks red-heads are discriminated against and says she gets gay people because she has a gay brain. Really? I'd never heard of her before someone linked to her on the metafilter discussion about the RFRA. Also Mike Pence is backpeddling, kind of: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/31/indiana-religious-freedom_n_6977170.html
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Mar 31, 2015 18:37
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