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Why is changing someone's mind with words all of a sudden less violent than hitting them?
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Mar 29, 2015 16:18
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Maybe the whole reason It makes me uncomfortable is I've been suicidal before and I know I would've reacted badly to being struck by someone. That's the reason I'm trying to get off the topic of Gurren Lagann, because it just triggers me too much and I hate it on those grounds. King Gainer, at the very least triggers me a decent amount less than Gurren Lagann does, even if it does trigger me on occasion. (the medicine thing, the boxing match) Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 16:23
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If you were suicidal, reacting badly isn't that much of a step down, but I digress: The society Simon and co. live in is not at all like ours and has fundamentally different approaches to violence and mental health that function on an entirely symbolic, and not realistic, level. I'll repeat my question. Hbomberguy posted:Why is changing someone's mind with words all of a sudden less violent than hitting them?
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Mar 29, 2015 16:28
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Hbomberguy posted:If you were suicidal, reacting badly isn't that much of a step down, but I digress: By react badly I mean more convinced I need to go through with it at a later time.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:33
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Stop projecting yourself onto characters in every show and then get offended when they don't act like you would.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:35
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Clawshrimpy posted:Striking someone, especially someone who is in mental distress, is never an acceptable solution under any context or situation, though. You seem to have missed the bit where slapping someone in mental distress is a legit technique. Please don't talk about poo poo you don't actually understand.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:36
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Maybe you shouldn't watch anime if it triggers you so hard
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Mar 29, 2015 16:36
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I'll repeat the question.Hbomberguy posted:Why is changing someone's mind with words all of a sudden less violent than hitting them?
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Mar 29, 2015 16:37
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Namtab posted:Maybe you shouldn't watch anime if it triggers you so hard Except for when there are shows that I do like that don't trigger me!
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Mar 29, 2015 16:37
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Clawshrimpy posted:By react badly I mean more convinced I need to go through with it at a later time. The aim would be to get you to not commit suicide at that time. Following the evasion of the initial crisis, you would likely be sectioned in the short term or else be referred for help so that you wouldn't commit suicide at a later time.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:45
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Clawshrimpy posted:Maybe the whole reason It makes me uncomfortable is I've been suicidal before and I know I would've reacted badly to being struck by someone. Good! This is an important concession. From my perspective it's really obvious that when you see someone hit someone else, especially a person you've been projecting onto wholesale, it causes an immediate and incredibly violent gut reaction of searing, irrational hatred. This needs to stop. You really need to stop instantly and reflexively hating a person for hitting someone else. You need to stop projecting yourself wholesale into shows. You need to stop judging situations wholly by "What would happen if it was me". Clawshrimpy posted:Except for when there are shows that I do like that don't trigger me! And those are how many? There's Digimon and the one show we can't talk about. Are you really okay with only being able to watch two shows ever? Shrimpy I've said it before but stop running away. Also if seeing someone being hit really triggers you and you start to have suicidal impulses then seek immediate, intensive psychiatric help because that's a truly extreme reaction and if that's happening to you then you desperately need something more than self-medication via internet forums for that.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:53
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Omnicrom posted:Good! This is an important concession. From my perspective it's really obvious that when you see someone hit someone else, especially a person you've been projecting onto wholesale, it causes an immediate and incredibly violent gut reaction of searing, irrational hatred. This needs to stop. You really need to stop instantly and reflexively hating a person for hitting someone else. You need to stop projecting yourself wholesale into shows. You need to stop judging situations wholly by "What would happen if it was me". It's not just Digimon and "the forbidden robot anime* I like Heroman, I like Machine Robo Rescue, I like Zoids Genesis, I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:01
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Hbomberguy posted:Why is changing someone's mind with words all of a sudden less violent than hitting them? I'm also curious. If you can't answer the question immediately (and that's perfectly fair) could you at least acknowledge that you've seen it and are attempting to consider it?
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Mar 29, 2015 17:03
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Hbomberguy posted:Why is changing someone's mind with words all of a sudden less violent than hitting them? Because it shows more compassion, as long as the words are kind and not charged with the kind of bravado that's not different from violence
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Mar 29, 2015 17:04
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Clawshrimpy posted:It's not just Digimon and "the forbidden robot anime* I like Heroman, I like Machine Robo Rescue, I like Zoids Genesis, I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now. I've not seen any of those except digimon but aren't those literally aimed at young children
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Mar 29, 2015 17:10
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Oh man, don't get him started on 'labelling' stuff as kids shows.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:11
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Literally shows for pre-teen boys, the basis for a grown rear end man's moral code
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Mar 29, 2015 17:16
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Namtab posted:Literally shows for pre-teen boys, the basis for a grown rear end man's moral code Just because it's aimed at a young demographic does not mean they can't have depth or be well-written! children deserve good shows that are well written just as much as adults do! TO suggest otherwise makes a bad assumption about children!
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Mar 29, 2015 17:19
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Children are smaller and simpler than adults due to lack of life experience and education. Therefore any show written for children will also be overly simplistic and not go into the grey areas that exist in adult life. That is why it is dumb for someone like you who is in his 30s or w/e to base his morality on a show for 10 year olds.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:24
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I think it's a bad idea to entirely base your morality on fiction, whether it's for children or adults.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:26
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Namtab posted:Children are smaller and simpler than adults due to lack of life experience and education. Therefore any show written for children will also be overly simplistic and not go into the grey areas that exist in adult life. Firstly, I'm only in my 20s. Secondly, that's not even true, if I found something of literary value in the shows I watch, and let's not act like mecha anime as a whole is purely for adults, either, all of it, even the nasty triggery stuff like Gurren Lagann, Gundam, etc.is aimed at young demographics.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:28
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When are we making clawshrimpy watch Monster?
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Mar 29, 2015 17:29
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Clawshrimpy posted:Because it shows more compassion, as long as the words are kind and not charged with the kind of bravado that's not different from violence Compassion is an attitude, not an action. Words are not inherently compassionate, nor punching inherently spiteful. Any action can be an act of compassion if done in the right situation and for the right reasons. Hence why you can have mercy killings, and yes, why even punching someone can be seen as an act of compassion. Which was clearly meant the intent in the case of Gurren Lagann. Simon warned Rossiu to clench his teeth, then punched him and most importantly, then spoke to him with compassion afterwards. He acknowledged that everything that Rossiu had done had been for what he saw as a greater good and was not something he should be ashamed of having done, that instead of committing suicide that he should help to save as many people as he could going foward and try to do what Rossiu himself saw as better in the future. There is literally nothing in what he said that can be construed as dogmatic, bravado, toxic or even really a philosophy. The only thing he forced Rossiu to do was to not commit suicide. He didn't impress any kind of attitude or plan upon him, he left what Rossiu would do next up to Rossiu entirely. All of which falls entirely within the kind of morals you yourself have been advocating for 20 odd pages now. Literally the only problem you have with it is the fact that he used a punch to help deliver this help and you have a problem with it entirely devoid of any context. You refuse to admit that context can have an impact on actions, which is beyond stupid. Why don't you try to illustrate for me though why you think the phrase "believe in yourself", which is essentially what Simon told Rossiu is a bravado bordering on physical violence and how it could be damaging to him? Clawshrimpy posted:Just because it's aimed at a young demographic does not mean they can't have depth or be well-written! This is true as a general rule, and while I would say that GaoGaiGar is a good show that is well made and obviously had a lot of heart put in to it I would never say that it had the kind of depth you are ascribing to it. King Gainer has more of the kind of depth that you are insinuating, because it acknowledges that people are not perfect, that they can do good for seemingly selfish reasons, that they can do bad in the service of greater goals and so on. Clawshrimpy posted:Firstly, I'm only in my 20s. I don't think there's been a single mecha animation in existence intended primarily for adults - they're all intended for kids or teens first and adults second. Maybe the handful of hentai that are made featuring them, but they're hardly seen as mecha first and foremost. You can find all the literary value or moral guidance you wish in children's shows, but not everyone else has to agree with you - which you almost always act like we are obliged to wherever you go. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 17:33
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Namtab posted:When are we making clawshrimpy watch Monster? It's all as it should be...
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Mar 29, 2015 17:36
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tsob posted:Compassion is an attitude, not an action. Words are not inherently compassionate, nor punching inherently spiteful. Any action can be an act of compassion if done in the right situation and for the right reasons. Hence why you can have mercy killings, and yes, why even punching someone can be seen as an act of compassion. Which was clearly meant the intent in the case of Gurren Lagann. Simon warned Rossiu to clench his teeth, then punched him and most importantly, then spoke to him with compassion afterwards. He acknowledged that everything that Rossiu had done had been for what he saw as a greater good and was not something he should be ashamed of having done, that instead of committing suicide that he should help to save as many people as he could going foward and try to do what Rossiu himself saw as better in the future. There is literally nothing in what he said that can be construed as dogmatic, bravado, toxic or even really a philosophy. The only thing he forced Rossiu to do was to not commit suicide. He didn't impress any kind of attitude or plan upon him, he left what Rossiu would do next up to Rossiu entirely. But how can violence and toxic masculinity ever truly be compassion and kindness?
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Mar 29, 2015 17:48
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Clawshrimpy posted:Because it shows more compassion, as long as the words are kind and not charged with the kind of bravado that's not different from violence Except words can 100% be exactly what you're describing. It's almost as nothing is inherently compassionate and it is is all context that matters. Clawshrimpy posted:But how can violence and toxic masculinity ever truly be compassion and kindness? There's nothing toxic about the dumb masculinity poo poo in any of the shows you've complained about. As people has explained again and again and again. I'm sorry bad poo poo happened to you, but you project yourself onto (smaller, more childish) characters and then ignore literally everything that happens in a show or is said if that someone does anything you even might suspect might be bad, even if the characters in said show don't react anything close to you or actually understand context and personal problems. This has been said at you repeatedly and in much nicer ways, please stop ignoring what everyone is saying because all you're doing now is making the same assertions over and over and not even attempting to think about the idea that maybe your assumptions are wrong. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 17:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:But how can violence and toxic masculinity ever truly be compassion and kindness? When you save someone from committing suicide over guilt they felt towards you instead of feeling the very easily justified desire for revenge that you could be feeling. You've still also yet to explain how telling someone to have self confidence and to do what they want is an example of toxic masculinity. It's not even an example of masculinity, never mind toxic masculinity. Of course, when you prejudge everything by labeling it toxic it makes it harder to view it with any kind of objectivity. ZenMasterBullshit posted:This has been said at you repeatedly and in much nicer ways, please stop ignoring what everyone is saying because all you're doing now is making the same assertions over and over and not even attempting to think about the idea that maybe your assumptions are wrong. Actually, let me ask you Clawshrimpy, do you believe you are objectively right about what is moral and immoral, about what is good and bad, about whether shows, characters and people are good, bad, pure, evil etc? Do you believe you are an impartial judge of values, morals, people, shows etc? Your words would certainly paint the picture of someone who does think so and you need to accept that is just not true. It's not true of anyone in general, but most people can be objective about those things at least some of the time. You don't appear to be able to be objective about anything, ever. You shout at us about how these things are evil like we're obliged to accept your view on this and cannot possibly decide for ourselves what we feel and have to share your view because it is the only right and acceptable one. Everyone else is trying to foster discussion most of the time, you appear to just want to brainwash us to accept your view while shouting about how brainwashing is bad. I think you need to learn to accept that other people can have views different to yours even on things you feel strongly about and that you are not any kind of ultimate authority on those things regardless of how strongly you feel about them. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 17:54
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Clawshrimpy posted:But how can violence and toxic masculinity ever truly be compassion and kindness? Striking someone is not inherently violent. Masculinity is not inherently toxic. It all depends on context. In the context of Simon punching Russio the punch was not violent and the words were not toxic.
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Mar 29, 2015 17:55
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I don't think you understand what toxic masculinity is. Edit: I think generally a big problem when arguing with you is that you keep using words or concepts that you don't understand. Droyer fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 17:56
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Clawshrimpy posted:But how can violence and toxic masculinity ever truly be compassion and kindness? What makes that toxic, or masculine?
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Mar 29, 2015 17:57
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Violence is good. In anime, the good guys win because they use violence.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:07
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Hypothetically, if I were so far gone that I was seconds away from committing suicide and the only person close enough to do anything was an inarticulate heavyweight boxer I'd certainly want that boxer to knock me unconscious if he had to to buy time for someone who was "good with words" to help. Even if he gave me a concussion the "violent act" would actually be an act of kindness. It would give other, more articulate people, family, and friends a chance to help me start to cope with whatever had set me on the edge to begin with.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:15
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So what you're saying is that it would have been better to be dead than to get punched.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:21
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Compendium posted:So what you're saying is that it would have been better to be dead than to get punched. No because he should have thought of another way. AND THUS THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE
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Mar 29, 2015 18:23
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Sakurazuka posted:No because he should have thought of another way. Don't forget that he should have thought of it in about five seconds, if that, while in a cave in the middle of nowhere. No pressure or anything.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:24
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Droyer posted:I don't think you understand what toxic masculinity is. Truely there is an epidemic of young men owning their mistakes, working with people and having confidence in themselves and others. Its the downfall of society.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:25
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Even without debating the theoretical alternatives, it's a fundamental misreading of the core story to think of it in terms of what 'should' have happened, for a character 'to be moral', and to use that as a criticism of the show itself's quality. Rather than using the scene as a demonstration of the limits of Simon's own abilities you've jumped for the nuclear option of 'show is bad, immoral'. The show isn't even about masculinity, but about sheer defiance of previous rules, including what it means to 'be a man'. Hence the most important scene in the show where Simon makes a point of the fact that he is not like Kamina.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:30
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Namtab posted:It's a points system wherein each "good" action earns one point and each "evil" action earns one point.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:36
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Sakurazuka posted:No because he should have thought of another way. That's exactly it though.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:52
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Clawshrimpy posted:That's exactly it though. tsob posted:Don't forget that he should have thought of it in about five seconds, if that, while in a cave in the middle of nowhere. No pressure or anything. You're an idiot. I too think he should have floundered for 5 seconds and let his dear friend die instead of doing whatever he could to save him. Being a good person and helping your friends and stopping them from committing suicide don't mean anything if you cause them momentary and minor pain.
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Mar 29, 2015 18:56
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