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PupsOfWar posted:Conservatism will never die. This isn't something that they will do willingly, they will be forced into moderation because of slow but inevitable changes in demographics. It's a matter of when, not if. If out of the ashes there grows a GOP that doesn't rely on racism and religious fundamentalists to attract votes, I'll consider it a massive victory.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:25
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mcmagic posted:I don't think that is what will do it if Civil Rights for black people didn't. The majority of liberal white people still don't really like black people, it's just that they realize you can't treat them like second class citizens. I mean really, how many liberal white people that you know would be totally cool living in a black neighborhood, or having a black family move in next to them? Most liberal white people are cool with the gays though so it's way less of an issue.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:27
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baw posted:I'd love for American conservatism to finally tear itself apart on the hill of gay rights. It would be almost poetic. Drop the "birches and churches", go straight paleoconservative and I could see myself potentially voting for them (depending on the specifics of the platform).
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Apr 1, 2015 19:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Drop the "birches and churches", go straight paleoconservative and I could see myself potentially voting for them (depending on the specifics of the platform). haha what, paleoconservatism still has tons of poo poo in it dude
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Apr 1, 2015 19:31
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Salon did an overall on the Reid mobster conspiracy theory that some of us were joking about yesterday.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:36
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zoux posted:Salon did an overall on the Reid mobster conspiracy theory that some of us were joking about yesterday.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:41
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joeburz posted:haha what, paleoconservatism still has tons of poo poo in it dude Then I suppose my background in it is insufficient, my exposure to it has been the post 9/11 "the wars are stupid, labor is needed to balance the power of capital, global warming is real and serious, public programs are important and need to be sensibly designed, racism is still a thing that needs to be fought, we need serious Justice reform, invest in infrastructure" type
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Apr 1, 2015 19:42
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There is a role in the American political system for a party that is preoccupied with efficient government and avoiding wasteful government spending. That said, the Republicans have not been that party for decades, and now that they are bound to the hip with the Pentagon and defense contractors, they never will be again.Fried Chicken posted:Then I suppose my background in it is insufficient, my exposure to it has been the post 9/11 "the wars are stupid, labor is needed to balance the power of capital, global warming is real and serious, public programs are important and need to be sensibly designed, racism is still a thing that needs to be fought, we need serious Justice reform, invest in infrastructure" type
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Apr 1, 2015 19:42
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baw posted:This isn't something that they will do willingly, they will be forced into moderation because of slow but inevitable changes in demographics. It's a matter of when, not if. There are true believers within the ranks of GoP politicians, sure, but a ton of their policy is still driven first and foremost by corporate interests, with the social platform being nothing more than an adaptable and adjustable tool used to secure the votes of the rural poor. What the establishment probably plans to do is wait for the gay rights issue to be mostly settled by the judiciary (reducing its utility as a campaign issue for the democrats). Then they can go "welp, too bad, we tried, law of the land, nothing we can do about it now. But let me tell you about how The Liberals want to use Your hard-earned tax dollars to purchase abortion-fetuses from the Urban Youth, for use during their heathen islamic moon-rituals" and continue on their merry way. They've been at this for a long time and have gotten very good at slipping around setbacks to preserve their regressivism. Local/regional conservative interests can delay this evolution by choosing to die on the hill of gay-bashing, but ultimately I'd expect most of them to get in line.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:47
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Fried Chicken posted:Then I suppose my background in it is insufficient, my exposure to it has been the post 9/11 "the wars are stupid, labor is needed to balance the power of capital, global warming is real and serious, public programs are important and need to be sensibly designed, racism is still a thing that needs to be fought, we need serious Justice reform, invest in infrastructure" type Paleoconservatism is like Barry Goldwater types. You're thinking of something along the lines of Christian Democracy or something.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:47
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A Winner is Jew posted:The majority of liberal white people still don't really like black people, it's just that they realize you can't treat them like second class citizens. I mean really, how many liberal white people that you know would be totally cool living in a black neighborhood, or having a black family move in next to them? I can say that Harlem is gentrifying but its mostly other minorities and French people that cant afford to live under 100th rather than american born cookie cutter liberal white folks. There's a small subset of white people that have moved in from other states that realize that rent control knows no skin color and live like kings (Im totally a reverse carpetbagger) but yeah in general the typical liberals are terrified of being up here and cluster together in Brooklyn but not that side of Brooklyn. Racism is alive and well in very political ideology, self awareness or at least the desire to offset their own horrific views with government programs is about the only difference.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:50
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Fried Chicken posted:Then I suppose my background in it is insufficient, my exposure to it has been the post 9/11 "the wars are stupid, labor is needed to balance the power of capital, global warming is real and serious, public programs are important and need to be sensibly designed, racism is still a thing that needs to be fought, we need serious Justice reform, invest in infrastructure" type Only about half of those things are actual paleoconservative positions. Paleocons tend to be closer to Ron Paul. Pat Buchanan is basically paleoconservatism personified. The big planks are: - Anti-interventionism - Extremely Anti-immigration - Pro-nationalism / assimilation / national identity - Anti-Free trade - Anti-cosmopolitanism / Anti-Multiculturalism - Anti-Social Democracy It is basically Edmund Burke translated to the 20th century. Small towns and communities, tradition, staying away from outside influences, cultural hegemony, unity, etc. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 19:50
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Dr. Tough posted:Paleoconservatism is like Barry Goldwater types. You're thinking of something along the lines of Christian Democracy or something. Ah, see I was of the impression the Barry Goldwater types were the "birches and churches". The American Conservative spills most of its ink denouncing those and it is my window into paleoconservative.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:54
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Dr. Tough posted:Paleoconservatism is like Barry Goldwater types. You're thinking of something along the lines of Christian Democracy or something. Goldwater would be called a RINO nowadays https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSGIAfpggeA
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Apr 1, 2015 19:54
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A Winner is Jew posted:The majority of liberal white people still don't really like black people, it's just that they realize you can't treat them like second class citizens. I mean really, how many liberal white people that you know would be totally cool living in a black neighborhood, or having a black family move in next to them? I've been thinking for a while that this is why racism will still be a thing long after conservatives start denying they ever were against gay marriage*. With people under 50 at least, the right and left seem to be becoming increasingly unified in the belief that their gay and lesbian friends are typical examples of their fellows, in the same way that they're both unified in the belief that their black friends and relatives are "the good ones." So even while you might convince some young libertarian-flavor conservatives on the "states rights" or "business owners' rights" thing in vague principle, they're not going to really go to bat for this sort of discrimination like they will at fear of some imagined shadowy culture of welfare leechers, or like old people still shocked and appalled at two men holding hands in public will be. *They'll probably actually be "We like that best since it means they're in committed monogamous relationships rather than dirty sluts" though.
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Apr 1, 2015 19:55
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Paleoconservatives those are the ones that eat only meat and nuts right?
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Apr 1, 2015 19:55
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zoux posted:Paleoconservatives those are the ones that eat only meat and nuts right? No you're thinking of Jeb
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Apr 1, 2015 19:57
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zoux posted:Paleoconservatives those are the ones that eat only meat and nuts right? Please don't test my highminded ideals with such a tempting gay joke setup.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:02
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Fried Chicken posted:Then I suppose my background in it is insufficient, my exposure to it has been the post 9/11 "the wars are stupid, labor is needed to balance the power of capital, global warming is real and serious, public programs are important and need to be sensibly designed, racism is still a thing that needs to be fought, we need serious Justice reform, invest in infrastructure" type Communist. 
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Apr 1, 2015 20:03
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Doctor Butts posted:Because I know some libertarianish people who will proclaim that this is proof that the free market winning out, I'm going to cut it off at the pass. This is just semantics, honestly. I mean you are basically arguing this isn't a free market victory because a perfect free market doesn't exist which is a true but trivial statement. baw posted:I'd love for American conservatism to finally tear itself apart because of gay rights. It would be almost poetic. The right is going to swing libertarian and will become increasingly popular with millennials. JT Jag posted:This form of conservatism has not been prevalent since the 50s. Right, it was replaced by the religious right, who is now on the way out and the cycle behind anew.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:06
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Oh Georgia, do we REALLY want to be Indiana that badly?
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Apr 1, 2015 20:06
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tsa posted:
Yeah the only ones who will turn to that would be those who already voted Republican anyways.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:09
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From the end of last thread, I thought this deserved more attention: Article: Texas measure cuts HIV funds, boost abstinence education From: ABC News Date: April 1, 2015 quote:Texas would cut $3 million from programs to prevent HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases and spend that money instead on abstinence education under a contentious Republican-sponsored measure tucked into the state budget Tuesday night. An appropriate response.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:17
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tsa posted:
Authoritarians don't just disappear into the Ether because they're unpopular, they just rebrand and regroup. Libertarianism isn't going to get squat. D1Sergo fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 1, 2015 |
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Apr 1, 2015 20:19
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baw posted:This isn't something that they will do willingly, they will be forced into moderation because of slow but inevitable changes in demographics. It's a matter of when, not if. Assuming, of course, these demographic changes actually happen and aren't just a lefty wet dream. Unfortunately we are already seeing lots of evidence it's the latter.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:19
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Accretionist posted:From the end of last thread, I thought this deserved more attention: Sounds about right. They are still pushing for Abstinence only sex ed in the South despite our loving awful Teen Pregnancy rates (and the weird idea that if you tell kids not to do something, they won't do it.)
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Apr 1, 2015 20:19
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tsa posted:Assuming, of course, these demographic changes actually happen and aren't just a lefty wet dream. Unfortunately we are already seeing lots of evidence it's the latter. What? The US is becoming less white and there's no way to stop it. Racism as political strategy is going to go from being an asset to a liability within the decade.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:21
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tsa posted:Assuming, of course, these demographic changes actually happen and aren't just a lefty wet dream. Unfortunately we are already seeing lots of evidence it's the latter. I don't think the demographics will necessarily lead to a supportable Democratic or liberal majority, but I do think they will ultimately kill the Reagan coalition. Unfortunately that means the country is headed for permanant gridlock until and unless the conservatives decide to compromise and work with the middle, which may or may not ever happen
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Apr 1, 2015 20:22
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baw posted:What? The US is becoming less white and there's no way to stop it. Race politics is going to go from being an asset to a liability within the decade. Nah we'll just go back to picking on the Irish. Believe me, we don't need skin tone in order to discriminate against people for vaguely perceived differences. Maybe we'll just start discriminating against shifty-eyed people.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:23
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I really hope the concerns of these large corporations wanting a good business environment and all of the attention that has been put on the fact that these red states allow discrimination actually results in something, as in getting those states to pass ENDA laws. The only possible way we get ENDA laws in those states is if what happens in Indiana happens there as well because "support gay rights or lose millions" is probably the only argument that can convince these red state politicians. The difference in opinion on gay rights between these red state legislatures and mainstream corporate America is really quite incredible at this point. You have legislatures in 2014 that vote 2-1 for jailing gays while even loving Walmart and NASCAR view laws that may condone discrimination against gays as toxic.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:24
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baw posted:What? The US is becoming less white and there's no way to stop it. Racism as political strategy is going to go from being an asset to a liability within the decade.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:25
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Accretionist posted:Article: Texas measure cuts HIV funds, boost abstinence education These random  s we get out of legislatures make it all worth it.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:25
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A Winner is Jew posted:The majority of liberal white people still don't really like black people, it's just that they realize you can't treat them like second class citizens. I mean really, how many liberal white people that you know would be totally cool living in a black neighborhood, or having a black family move in next to them? The former? probably not very many. I'd be wary of moving to a place where the vast majority of people don't look/talk like I do. I'd worry that they'd think I was some kind of gentrifier or worse. I'd worry they'd hate me for being white. I would however, move to a black neighborhood one hell of a lot quicker than one where I don't speak the language, regardless of color. I don't like being an outsider. Nobody does. The latter? Probably most would be fine. I was happy to see my neighbors when I moved in a few doors down to a black family, as they're nice as hell. Granted, that may be because they are near my age and their kids are still kids, instead of teenagers. Because most teenagers of any race are assholes. Black families who move into white neighborhoods? That takes a lot of will, and a lot of guts. I don't envy them that experience.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:26
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tsa posted:The right is going to swing libertarian and will become increasingly popular with millennials. Crowsbeak posted:Yeah the only ones who will turn to that would be those who already voted Republican anyways. That said, a lot has to happen before it gets to that point.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:28
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site posted:Wishful thinking right here. Like, the US is becoming less white. That's not really disputable.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:29
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You can now pay Mitt Romney to be his towelboy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVzZ_iBY_Ok
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Apr 1, 2015 20:29
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Sir Tonk posted:These random
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Apr 1, 2015 20:30
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baw posted:Like, the US is becoming less white. That's not really disputable.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:30
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JT Jag posted:Let's say that, in theory, a Republican congress endorses federal weed decriminalization (or at least nationwide legalization of medical cannabis) before a Democratic president lowers its Stage. And drops the gay bashing and... hell, maybe eases off abortion. Even with their lower class-destroying economic policies, a slight easing of their social policies as well as throwing a bone to the young voters that the Dems haven't yet would get them a lot of attention. Then they lose the Evangelical vote, which is critical for them to even have a chance at the presidency.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:30
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"Federal Weed decriminalization" just means the feds won't bust you for possession, which is a rare occurrence. Either they get you for something bigger (like being a dealer) or the state's laws is what they charge you under. No matter how libertarian Republicans are, they're not going to violate the latter case because that would be the biggest anti-States' Rights crusade since Nixon and national speed limits.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:30
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