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Arglebargle III posted:Why would a flight student not want to fly an airplane? "Why fly an airplane when you can get the same score without flying the airplane?" is the question China's education system encourages people to ask in return.
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Apr 2, 2015 04:18
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I want a front row seat if there's a war between China and the US.
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Apr 2, 2015 04:19
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Fojar38 posted:I want a front row seat if there's a war between China and the US. The US won't bother shipping any ammo, they'll just buy it from the Chinese quartermasters.
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Apr 2, 2015 04:22
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Arglebargle III posted:Why would a flight student not want to fly an airplane? More importantly, what flight student is going to do more landings and takeoffs than they have to? That's much more difficult then just keeping stable flight.
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Apr 2, 2015 04:36
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Stringent posted:The US won't bother shipping any ammo, they'll just buy it from the Chinese quartermasters. Remember that move the Yanks pulled in Vietnam where they dropped bundles of lovely ammo that would make VC guns burst and gently caress themselves over? Yeah, they ain't gonna need to do that this time. Yes, I know the initial phase didn't work out, but c'mon.
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Apr 2, 2015 04:37
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goldboilermark posted:Just a friendly reminder that this is literally a culture where people surrounded a school during the Gaokao and yelled "There is no fairness if you don't let us cheat". That wasn't an SNL skit, that is actually what people were yelling and what they believed. It's funny because if you take a look at how the gaokao and college admission works in China it''s incredibly unfair. Rural kids (and schools) have a decent rationale for cheating. But yeah as standardized tests become an end to their own means cheating becomes a more and more rational response.
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Apr 2, 2015 06:22
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So when every system is unfair, you're testing people on how well they can cheat any given system?
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Apr 2, 2015 06:42
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:What do you guys think about this? Now Google delists CNNIC certificates over its Man in the Middle proxies... http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/maintaining-digital-certificate-security.html CNNIC responds quote:1. The decision that Google has made is unacceptable and unintelligible to CNNIC, and meanwhile CNNIC sincerely urge that Google would take users’ rights and interests into full consideration. poo poo is heating up.
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Apr 2, 2015 07:30
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Loving the Chinglish in the response.
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Apr 2, 2015 07:35
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quote:1. The decision that Google has made is unacceptable and unintelligible to CNNIC, and meanwhile CNNIC sincerely urge that Google would take users’ rights and interests into full consideration. Is that basically "Google has hurt the feelings of the Chinese people"?
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Apr 2, 2015 08:13
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hailthefish posted:Is that basically "Google has hurt the feelings of the Chinese people"? Obama's threat of sanctions against organizations which accept CNNIC has hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.
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Apr 2, 2015 08:20
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goldboilermark posted:Just a friendly reminder that this is literally a culture where people surrounded a school during the Gaokao and yelled "There is no fairness if you don't let us cheat". That wasn't an SNL skit, that is actually what people were yelling and what they believed. Well, they aren't stupid. There's probably a real reason they "believed" that.
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Apr 2, 2015 08:38
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As someone who has had no contact with the Chinese educational system but plenty of contact with people that went through the Chinese educational system, I have to say that despite all the stuff talked about in this thread there's certainly no shortage of Chinese people who seem to have actually learned a lot of stuff in school.
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Apr 2, 2015 08:42
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fart simpson posted:As someone who has had no contact with the Chinese educational system but plenty of contact with people that went through the Chinese educational system, I have to say that despite all the stuff talked about in this thread there's certainly no shortage of Chinese people who seem to have actually learned a lot of stuff in school. Absolutely, but it takes years to break graduates out of the rote-memorization mentality, and get them to creatively contribute to an organization. I need grads that aren't afraid to express an opinion and that can creatively design solutions that will scale as usage grows. Harsh hiring policies (we hire 1 out of every 500 applicants, graduates must speak basic English) mean that I never meet an "average" graduate and I'm still fighting against the beaten in reluctance, that's stopping them from speaking up and offering anything other than a textbook answer to a question, if, and only if they are explicitly asked. The company then fly's them overseas for a six week "induction" course, to try and teach creativity, among other things. I'm working with young, university educated professionals, with great technical skills and who can speak business English. It's a tiny, tiny, exclusive percentage of the population, and they're still incredibly immature and closed minded compared to their counterparts in a US/Anglo setting.
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Apr 2, 2015 09:37
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fart simpson posted:As someone who has had no contact with the Chinese educational system but plenty of contact with people that went through the Chinese educational system, I have to say that despite all the stuff talked about in this thread there's certainly no shortage of Chinese people who seem to have actually learned a lot of stuff in school. You live in Shenzhen.
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Apr 2, 2015 10:29
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Grand Fromage posted:Our school is designed to be like attending American high school to prep kids to go to western universities (usually the US) so I do actually fail them, yes. I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't. Just because you fail them doesn't mean they are actually failing. Have you ever seen the actual paper that gets sent home? Are you manually uploading the grades into (I'm guessing) the online system? I teach in the same kind of system. There are about 180 kids (in a special program inside a school of 8000,) with 30 in each grade (7-12.) In each class you got about 10 that are the real deal, 10 that have some english difficulties but are better than the average ESL student, and 10 that are dregs. Every quarter we give the kids a online reading test from Scholastic that is supposed to gauge their reading level. We've got some kids in grade 10, 11 that have a 1st grade reading level. With 3/4th of all their classes are totally English. In January I was watching them upload my grades. In one of my classes I had one kid who got an F (55.something.) I watched the secretary go to submit the grades into the online system and...nothing. Not uploading. She tries again, same thing. She looks at the grades again and spots the F. She points it at me and says "so...60?" I sigh and put it in. The grades get submitted. I literally can't fail anyone. None of the foreigner teachers have been told this officially, and everyone hands in grade with the failures in them, but they all get bumped up before they get uploaded. I believe in the larger part of the school grades aren't allowed to go below 10 (this has been a problem before in some regular English classes apparently.)
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Apr 2, 2015 12:20
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Trammel posted:Absolutely, but it takes years to break graduates out of the rote-memorization mentality, and get them to creatively contribute to an organization. I need grads that aren't afraid to express an opinion and that can creatively design solutions that will scale as usage grows. What type of industry are you in? I know what you're getting at, but my experience hasn't been that bad. We just had a bunch of 22 and 23 year old recent grads contribute to part of a week long workshop to come up with product ideas for the next couple years (consumer electronics industry) and didn't have an issue with people not contributing. That's a pretty creative thing. Almost our entire UI/UX team is 21-23 year old mainland Chinese people and they're all very self-directed, creative, and produce high-quality work.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:13
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fart simpson posted:Well, they aren't stupid. There's probably a real reason they "believed" that. It's because the CCP was testing out a pilot program where they actually gave a gently caress about cheating and people were upset because everyone else in the country got to cheat. There's plenty of examples in the US about parents not giving a gently caress about anyone but their kids.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:17
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GoutPatrol posted:Just because you fail them doesn't mean they are actually failing. Have you ever seen the actual paper that gets sent home? I have. Over half the kids don't make it out of their first year typically, some failing, some leaving. I did feel pressured to cook the grades for the 10th graders, but from what I've gathered from the teachers who have been here longer the admissions people hosed up and the 10th grade this year is absurdly awful, and they weren't comfortable failing out the 2/3s who deserve it. They're instead being encouraged to leave over the course of the year and we've gotten a few of the worst out already. I don't think there's any school in China that is honest but this one is on the higher end of honesty. We're partnered with American high schools that enforce standards.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:18
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computer parts posted:It's because the CCP was testing out a pilot program where they actually gave a gently caress about cheating and people were upset because everyone else in the country got to cheat. Yes, that's what I'm getting at. If you're the only group that's not allowed to cheat, then it really isn't fair that you're not allowed to. Fair isn't a synonym of honest.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:25
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It's not like people here are dumb. They're reacting rationally to the hosed up system they're subjected to and making it work for them.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:51
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goldboilermark posted:You live in Shenzhen. Is Shenzhen really popular for foreigners to work at? I know a Russian dude who also works there or did. It was interesting as he remarked he felt safer walking the streets of Shenzhen at night than he did walking Moscow's by day.
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Apr 2, 2015 14:58
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Grand Fromage posted:It's not like people here are dumb. They're reacting rationally to the hosed up system they're subjected to and making it work for them. This is pretty much the best summation of this. The gaokao determines your future too. Not in the sense that if you score badly on it you won't get into a good school but in the sense that it determines what career you can study for and how much you make. It's like a combination of the SAT and those stupid career aptitude tests. It's a terrible system but it exists for a reason. If they didn't have this test, people would just buy their way into every top university* and the gaokao at least in theory evens the field to help the poor. In return it unfortunately confines people to careers they have no interest in and relegates people who are bad test takers to a future of poverty. To equate the test to the SAT or any other American test is not really the best thing to do because no one's life or future was destroyed because of mediocre SAT scores. *Rich parents often have their children born outside of China or ensure they hold a foreign passport, even an African one, because they can then go to any Chinese university as a foreign student. This gives their child immediate access to Fudan or Beida for a relatively low fee. You still have to pass English competency tests and the normal standardized tests to go to school in the US so it's not like having a US passport gets you easy access to Harvard. Even an American teenager who did 4 years of high school at an international school in China still has to take the TOEFL test.
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Apr 2, 2015 16:33
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I can't really blame somebody for cheating all of the time when a) the entire government cheats all of the time, and bribery is basically baked into the civil service, and b) if you don't cheat your way to the top, somebody else will, and you will just fall through the enormous cracks in the social safety net. "Everybody is doing it all of the time and if you don't you'll end up sleeping on a cardboard box in front of a train station" is a pretty hard carrot/stick combo to ignore. This is a generation that has grown up knowing nothing but corruption, bribery, rich people buying their way out of trouble, baby formula scandals... what the gently caress do you expect them to do?
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Apr 2, 2015 16:45
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fart simpson posted:What type of industry are you in? I know what you're getting at, but my experience hasn't been that bad. We just had a bunch of 22 and 23 year old recent grads contribute to part of a week long workshop to come up with product ideas for the next couple years (consumer electronics industry) and didn't have an issue with people not contributing. That's a pretty creative thing. Almost our entire UI/UX team is 21-23 year old mainland Chinese people and they're all very self-directed, creative, and produce high-quality work. Web development. Generally in China, web UI/UX is horrible. Look at any of the banking, telephony, realestate or job websites as examples. But specifically, when it comes to software engineering and design, they generally display close to zero common sense. By default, the code tends to be poorly tested (MVP FTW) and badly designed. I've seen horribly fat controllers (eg. SMTP mails being sent from within the controller), wilful abuse of design patterns, re-inventing the wheel (lets write our own ORM), needless focusing on optimization in all the wrong places (multi-threading web service requests with database writes in just two threads), terrible database design (numbers stored as strings, money stored as floats), and a horrible tendency to pick the current hot language and framework, regardless of appropriateness. Collaborative and group design is near non-existent. These skills get learnt, but it's stuff students and grads learn much earlier in other places.
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Apr 2, 2015 16:48
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You can either cheat or get the gently caress out. The latter being the better option, but much less available than the first.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:20
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:the gaokao at least in theory evens the field to help the poor. If you ever look at the details of the gaokao system it's hilariously unfair and arbitrary and SURPRISE it skews hard towards students who are likely to be wealthier. For example almost half of Beida's slots are reserved for Beijing hukou holders who get in with much lower scores than their poorer competitors in the Hebei exurbs only 20 km away. Attempts to make the system fairer are unsurprisingly blocked really loving hard by the wealthy urbanites who benefit from it. Also the gaokao isn't actually standardized, it's drafted and administered by the provincial education ministries. Each province's gaokao are substantially different and they score each other's tests differently and it's an incredible clusterfuck. Don't let anyone tell you that the gaokao is a good and practical system.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:26
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GoutPatrol posted:Just because you fail them doesn't mean they are actually failing. Have you ever seen the actual paper that gets sent home? Are you manually uploading the grades into (I'm guessing) the online system? This happens in Japanese public schools as well, only the grade threshold is actually a bit higher. You can't give a kid lower than a 'C', because it would totally hurt their motivation and make everyone look bad. Japanese students literally cannot fail even if they sit in class doing absolutely nothing, doing none of the work, sleeping in class every day, etc. Being held back a grade is not even a concept that exists. Even if the kid doesn't even show up to school for half a year or more, the school will make concessions so that they get into the "proper" grade for their age group.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:32
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Arglebargle III posted:If you ever look at the details of the gaokao system it's hilariously unfair and arbitrary and SURPRISE it skews hard towards students who are likely to be wealthier. For example almost half of Beida's slots are reserved for Beijing hukou holders who get in with much lower scores than their poorer competitors in the Hebei exurbs only 20 km away. Attempts to make the system fairer are unsurprisingly blocked really loving hard by the wealthy urbanites who benefit from it. Also the gaokao isn't actually standardized, it's drafted and administered by the provincial education ministries. Each province's gaokao are substantially different and they score each other's tests differently and it's an incredible clusterfuck. This wasn't what I was claiming at all. The original intent of the gaokao was to even the playing fields and to prevent unfair advantages under a perception that all regions of China would develop equally. As we have all seen, this is far from the case. No one is claiming the gaokao is good and practical.
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Apr 2, 2015 18:11
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Gaokao favor first tier city residences, more so than rich people.
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Apr 2, 2015 20:32
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Bloodnose posted:That Americans discriminate against Chinese. To be fair that's actually true too. Ask any American of Chinese descent.
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Apr 2, 2015 20:36
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Well if they'd stop putting their drat pee-pee in my Coke I'd have no quarrel!
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Apr 2, 2015 20:49
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The big problem with the gaokao was that it was a system devised after they had to rebuild the educational system from scratch after the Maoists razed it to the ground, sometimes literally. A system had to be developed that created a meritocracy which took into account monetary, geographic, and ethnic inequality. The system in order to work would have had to constantly be modified to take into account development and changing demographics. This coupled with the hukou system, the phasing out of the work group model, and the existence of special economic zones has created a perfect storm. Since the system hasn't been modified gradually over time, it really can't be modified unless someone comes in and arbitrarily changes it, which won't happen. The gaokao is in and of itself a very visible example of how the Chinese organizational system is incredibly broken and how it won't be fixed due to the nature of a single party centralized government, riddled with competing factions. Every move no matter how big or small is incredibly political and causes infighting. The only hope for the Chinese educational system is for Xi to come down as the hand of God and fix it. Xi will of course not do this because it would require so much political capital that he would never be able to accomplish any of his other goals. Since the system is "working" at the moment, it's not a priority. The fact that rich Chinese nationals send their children abroad is one of the big reasons it'll never be fixed because as long as people of means have an out, it's fine. No one cares about a Henan pig farmer or a Tibetan yak herder in the grand scheme of things, just like a Washington politician doesn't care about a kid born below the poverty line or an Appalachian dirt farmer who lives in a barely insulated shack. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Apr 2, 2015 |
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Apr 2, 2015 21:07
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What is Xi saving his political capital for exactly? Consolidating power?
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Apr 2, 2015 22:25
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coloncalamity posted:What is Xi saving his political capital for exactly? Consolidating power? Sacking Jiang's people. Do you even follow Chinese news.
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Apr 2, 2015 22:49
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Xi has been cleaning house, well as much as he can without provoking a civil crisis, and consolidating his rule. He's also promoting an ideological framework to increase national unity and prevent capital flight by investing people with a sense of national responsibility. That's at least what I think the "Chinese Dream" is. To be honest, no one knows because it's incredibly vague. My personal theory is that Xi is going to clean house and deal with upper level problems throughout his reign. It will probably fall on his successors to handle the lower level problems. Even then, this could never get fixed in a meaningful way.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:07
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I'm still not convinced that Xi is doing everything purely for the people. But the main problem is that the next person/faction after him can just gently caress everything up again or make it even worse.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:11
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:
There won't be a successor. Emperor Xi will change the constitution.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:42
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whatever7 posted:There won't be a successor. Emperor Xi will change the constitution. It's been a hundred years, I guess China is overdue for one of these again.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:57
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computer parts posted:It's been a hundred years, I guess China is overdue for one of these again. Collapse?
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Apr 3, 2015 00:05
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