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Pavlov posted:If only browsers supported something that wasn't javascript. Maybe we could program in something good instead. If you are unironically suggesting we use Java instead I think you're in for some hurt
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Apr 2, 2015 17:19
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Not sure why you are getting Java from "something good".
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Apr 2, 2015 17:22
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I'm pretty sure javascript continues to thrive as a punishment for developers collectively producing poo poo code day in and day out. I mean even if there was some theoretical perfect language all set to replace javascript, someone somewhere would still find a way to write poo poo code. Javascript just forces us all to wallow in that reality.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:23
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Honestly, the biggest problem with Javascript is the culture surrounding it.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:39
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Pavlov posted:If only browsers supported something that wasn't javascript. Maybe we could program in something good instead. Haste and WebSharper are all quite interesting to me, working towards breaking down the barrier between client-side and server-side code.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:40
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Sinestro posted:Haste and WebSharper are all quite interesting to me, working towards breaking down the barrier between client-side and server-side code. Sounds like an excellent idea.
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Apr 2, 2015 17:48
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Pavlov posted:If only browsers supported something that wasn't javascript. Maybe we could program in something good instead. VBScript.
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Apr 2, 2015 18:02
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Sinestro posted:Haste and WebSharper are all quite interesting to me, working towards breaking down the barrier between client-side and server-side code. node.js 
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Apr 2, 2015 18:30
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Wheany posted:Honestly, the biggest problem with Javascript is the culture surrounding it. I've written some browser based games in JS and I honestly didn't find it that bad. However, I was working by myself and I wasn't interacting with the DOM in any serious way. I can see how it could be more annoying if neither of those were the case.
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Apr 2, 2015 20:12
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I would love to meet with the people who think compiling everything to javascript is a good idea so I can sell them my idea for a new Lisp Machine.
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Apr 2, 2015 20:44
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Didn't someone already try to do that? I recall the documentation stating that you should remove comments and use short variable names to increase performance...
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Apr 2, 2015 20:59
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HappyHippo posted:Didn't someone already try to do that? I recall the documentation stating that you should remove comments and use short variable names to increase performance... Wasn't that some arduino-like device with its own js interpreter that evaluated comments? Google is failing me now to find it and I'm pretty sure it's been posted like 150 pages back in this thread.
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Apr 2, 2015 21:22
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There's always emscripten.
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Apr 2, 2015 21:37
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kitten smoothie posted:Wasn't that some arduino-like device with its own js interpreter that evaluated comments? Google is failing me now to find it and I'm pretty sure it's been posted like 150 pages back in this thread. Yeah I think it was something like that. Certainly belongs in this thread for sure.
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Apr 2, 2015 21:39
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I actually don't hate JS as a language  but I'm guessing a lot of that is Stockholm Syndromekitten smoothie posted:Wasn't that some arduino-like device with its own js interpreter that evaluated comments? Google is failing me now to find it and I'm pretty sure it's been posted like 150 pages back in this thread. http://www.espruino.com/
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Apr 2, 2015 21:41
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Pavlov posted:I would love to meet with the people who think compiling everything to javascript is a good idea so I can sell them my idea for a new Lisp Machine.
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Apr 2, 2015 21:57
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Munkeymon posted:I actually don't hate JS as a language It's definitely stockholm syndrome. I think programming in MUMPS is pretty fun! Mostly because I'm in a contest with myself to make my code as obtuse and unreadable as possible. Not in production of course. There I'm overjoyed that using comments no longer causes performance problems on the more popular M implementations.
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Apr 2, 2015 22:07
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Oh good, I get all the joy of javascript as a compilation target, with the added benefit of getting to do manual memory management. Pavlov fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Apr 2, 2015 |
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Apr 2, 2015 22:33
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Pavlov posted:Oh good, I get all the joy of javascript as a compilation target, with the added benefit of getting to do manual memory management. Skynet must have a weakness.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:10
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Pavlov posted:Oh good, I get all the joy of javascript as a compilation target, with the added benefit of getting to do manual memory management.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:21
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Plorkyeran posted:If manual memory management isn't a benefit then asm.js is probably not the correct compilation target. Half the point of asm seems to be that it will run on current browser javascript engines. If you're not running the code in someone's browser, you're not forcefully tied to javascript at all. What are you sticking in people's browsers that you need the efficiency of manual memory management over the ease of garbage collection?
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Apr 3, 2015 00:05
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Pavlov posted:What are you sticking in people's browsers that you need the efficiency of manual memory management over the ease of garbage collection? Anything that uses WebGL to draw stuff on the screen. e: Meaning game engines, VR apps, etc.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:12
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Pavlov posted:Half the point of asm seems to be that it will run on current browser javascript engines. If you're not running the code in someone's browser, you're not forcefully tied to javascript at all. What are you sticking in people's browsers that you need the efficiency of manual memory management over the ease of garbage collection? asm.js is a compilation target for un-JS-like languages which have their own memory management with semantics that do not exactly match JS's. Integrating with a platform's automatic memory management is generally far more difficult than just doing your own manual management. Any efficiency gains are merely a nice bonus; asm.js's memory management is basically just a formalization of what emscriptem was already doing.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:27
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Plorkyeran posted:asm.js is a compilation target for un-JS-like languages which have their own memory management with semantics that do not exactly match JS's. Integrating with a platform's automatic memory management is generally far more difficult than just doing your own manual management. Any efficiency gains are merely a nice bonus; asm.js's memory management is basically just a formalization of what emscriptem was already doing. Right. But the point I was half-heatedly making is that when you find yourself desperately trying to avoid the memory model of the system you're designing for, you have to ask yourself why you have to design for that system. Javascript was fundamentally not designed to perform all the tasks people want it to, but instead of trying to promote a new technology, there are a lot of people who insist on shoving everything in the world through a javascript engine kicking a screaming.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:47
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Being able to port existing code to a browser is valuable, apparently.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:52
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Pavlov posted:Right. But the point I was half-heatedly making is that when you find yourself desperately trying to avoid the memory model of the system you're designing for, you have to ask yourself why you have to design for that system. Javascript was fundamentally not designed to perform all the tasks people want it to, but instead of trying to promote a new technology, there are a lot of people who insist on shoving everything in the world through a javascript engine kicking a screaming. Even when we try to promote a new technology, nothing happens because it means an obscene adoption cliff given that most of your users don't know what their browser is, let alone JavaScript, let alone patching their browser to a version that would run another VM.
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Apr 3, 2015 01:00
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Volmarias posted:Even when we try to promote a new technology, nothing happens because it means an obscene adoption cliff given that most of your users don't know what their browser is, let alone JavaScript, let alone patching their browser to a version that would run another VM. Yeah, I know about Dart and NaCl and the like. I'm mostly just howling at the wind. It's just strange that we can get half of the world to download Flash, but we can't use a scripting engine that isn't purely javascript.
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Apr 3, 2015 01:08
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Flash offered something to the user, not just the programmer. Now that you can do what it did in javascript its basically dead.
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Apr 3, 2015 02:28
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JavaScript isn't really that worse compared to other programming languages. Every language has its warts. I've written large-scale JS projects and I don't see it as a giant pain, nor do I think it's Stockholm Syndrome. It's being realistic about technology choices. Compared to Python, Perl or Ruby, I think JS is a lot less wart-y.
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Apr 3, 2015 06:58
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Suspicious Dish posted:JavaScript isn't really that worse compared to other programming languages. Every language has its warts. I'm curious if people think Python 3 is still warty--I haven't had much exposure to it but most of my favorite Python 2 warts are gone in Python 3. Is Python 3 as big an improvement as its fans say it is?
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Apr 3, 2015 09:04
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VikingofRock posted:I'm curious if people think Python 3 is still warty--I haven't had much exposure to it but most of my favorite Python 2 warts are gone in Python 3. Is Python 3 as big an improvement as its fans say it is? I grabbed python 3 at work to do quick scripts with and Python 3's print operator forces you to use brackets, which kinda bugs me for some reason! Especially because I don't use many features in most basic scripts other than string and data manipulation, so losing my muscle memory sucks. Otherwise I doubt there's going to be many major changes in the language itself, and if a lot of your problems are gone then you should probably just upgrade.
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Apr 3, 2015 09:59
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Jewel posted:I grabbed python 3 at work to do quick scripts with and Python 3's print operator forces you to use brackets, which kinda bugs me for some reason! Because it's not an operator any more, it's a function, which definitely is more convenient for some stuff. And it is a removed wart, because in order to understand how print works you need only understand how functions work, as opposed to it being another statement type with its own syntax you have to know about.
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Apr 3, 2015 12:19
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Suspicious Dish posted:JavaScript isn't really that worse compared to other programming languages. Every language has its warts. well, yes, compared to three extremely warty languages, it's not surprising you can make a case for js being ok and it's also true to say that js is getting better with time. es6 looks like it will be pretty tolerable once browsers support all the basic features it is finally adding to the language!
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Apr 3, 2015 12:30
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VikingofRock posted:I'm curious if people think Python 3 is still warty--I haven't had much exposure to it but most of my favorite Python 2 warts are gone in Python 3. Is Python 3 as big an improvement as its fans say it is? Threading is still broken in python 3 and python 3 is still very slow. (I'm aware of multiprocessing and pypy but these aren't actually solutions).
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Apr 3, 2015 12:31
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Pavlov posted:Yeah, I know about Dart and NaCl and the like. I'm mostly just howling at the wind. It's just strange that we can get half of the world to download Flash, but we can't use a scripting engine that isn't purely javascript. Now you can't get anything on the web unless it's widely supported by 6 browsers and approved by 13 standards committees and functions in 28 devices, or it'll just get criticized for competing and fragmenting and proprietarizing and closing and unbalancing and ruining the purity of the internet.
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Apr 3, 2015 13:27
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SupSuper posted:Flash pretty much took off because it could install and update itself with little user input, so Flash content "just worked" off the bat. Uh, no? Even to this day only Chrome automatically bundles and updates Flash. Flash got traction because it supported a load of visual stuff before HTML did, and even years later it was the only reliable way to get H264 and game audio delivered.
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Apr 3, 2015 14:05
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Soricidus posted:well, yes, compared to three extremely warty languages, it's not surprising you can make a case for js being ok Yet those are the languages people use most and might want in the web. Please suggest a language you would prefer.
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Apr 3, 2015 16:40
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Suspicious Dish posted:Yet those are the languages people use most and might want in the web. Please suggest a language you would prefer. matlab
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Apr 3, 2015 18:17
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SupSuper posted:Flash pretty much took off because it could install and update itself with little user input, so Flash content "just worked" off the bat. Flash took off long before it was self-updating. It was adding capabilities to the web that IE wasn't, during the Pax Microsoftica, and for a while was bundled with both Windows and OS X. It also had authoring tools successfully targeted at designers, which the "open web" still largely lacks. (Do ask those designers how much they liked dealing with Flash versions, though.)
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Apr 3, 2015 18:56
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Suspicious Dish posted:Yet those are the languages people use most and might want in the web. Please suggest a language you would prefer. Me personally? I'd prefer Python, because I'm familiar with its warts whereas Javascript still strikes me as bizarre and horrible every time I touch it. But I'm aware that that's a personal preference rather than an argument in favour of rewriting the world's browsers. ES6 looks like it will improve things a lot, particularly if it's really going to introduce an actual language-level concept of libraries you can import.
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Apr 3, 2015 19:32
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