Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

david crosby: Mar 2, 2007

Beyond sane knolls posted:

What's yall's opinion on William Golding? I just bought The Scorpion God and The Paper Men based solely on the covers/historical setting/vague fond memories of Lord of the Flies.

I read The Inheritors like 2 years ago and thought it sucked poo poo. Lord of the Flies is kool though, and I think Golding won a Nobel??? so he must be good?

Has anyone here read The Man Without Qualities? I just started it and it is some good rear end stuff.

# ? Apr 3, 2015 06:38

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 04:53

Boatswain: May 29, 2012

david crosby posted:

I read The Inheritors like 2 years ago and thought it sucked poo poo. Lord of the Flies is kool though, and I think Golding won a Nobel??? so he must be good?

Has anyone here read The Man Without Qualities? I just started it and it is some good rear end stuff.

IMO the nobel prize is very hit or miss, and as often a political prize as a literary one.

# ? Apr 3, 2015 11:48

Mr. Squishy: Mar 22, 2010; A country where you can always get richer.

I read uh, Freefall and wasn't too impressed.
Good luck with MWQ crosby. Apparently it needs sustained attention throughout, though I've been wanting to borrow my sister's copy to try it.

# ? Apr 3, 2015 13:35

Grizzled Patriarch: Mar 27, 2014; These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.

re: Golding, I enjoyed The Spire and Pincher Martin. Lord of the Flies is great of course, but I also wasn't a big fan of The Inheritors. I don't think I've read anything else of his, so maybe that one was just a rare dud.

# ? Apr 3, 2015 19:07

Stravinsky: May 31, 2011

david crosby posted:

Has anyone here read The Man Without Qalities? I just started it and it is some good rear end stuff.

I have only read the first half but recently was given the whole work when someone moved. Its very good and I'm going to reread everything from the beginning

# ? Apr 3, 2015 21:32

Stravinsky: May 31, 2011

I am remembering how the main character impresses a nymphomaniac by telling her how great it was that he was beaten up in the middle of the street for no discernable reason and I am laughing again.

# ? Apr 3, 2015 21:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Seriously I don't think y'all mother fuckers listened to me when I said read David Vann

get on that poo poo pronto

# ? Apr 3, 2015 23:26

Nanomashoes: Aug 18, 2012

ulvir posted:

i'm reading inherent vice now, and I kinda regret this not being my first pynchon book. I'm only 1/4th in, but it feels a lot better than the crying of lot 49. not that the latter's bad, just if things continue as they do, a lesser book than inherent vice

TCOL49 is Pynchons worst book, it gets recommended because it's short or its all that person was able to read.

# ? Apr 4, 2015 06:47

Nitevision: Oct 5, 2004; Your Friendly FYAD Helper
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Mel Mudkiper posted:

Seriously I don't think y'all mother fuckers listened to me when I said read David Vann

get on that poo poo pronto

I'll check him out OP, just as soon as I'm done with Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

# ? Apr 4, 2015 06:54

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

Nanomashoes posted:

TCOL49 is Pynchons worst book, it gets recommended because it's short or its all that person was able to read.

Yeah I didn't like it, it had none of the powerful imagery of V. or Gravity's Rainbow.

# ? Apr 4, 2015 09:11

Carly Gay Dead Son: Aug 27, 2007; Bonus.

Crying of Lot 49 is loving aces, you dopes.

# ? Apr 4, 2015 14:47

novamute: Jul 5, 2006; o o o

Shibawanko posted:

Yeah I didn't like it, it had none of the powerful imagery of V. or Gravity's Rainbow.

quote:

Oedipa sat on the earth, rear end getting cold, wondering whether, as Driblette had suggested that night from the shower, some version of herself hadn't vanished with him. Perhaps her mind would go on flexing psychic muscles that no longer existed; would be betrayed and mocked by a phantom self as the amputee is by a phantom limb. Someday she might replace whatever of her had gone away by some prosthetic device, a dress of a certain color, a phrase in a letter, another lover. She tried to reach out to whatever coded tenacity of protein might improbably have held on six feet below, still resisting decay - any stubborn quiescence perhaps gathering itself for some last burst, some last scramble up through earth, just-glimmering, holding together with its final strength a transient, winged shape, needing to settle at once in the warm host, or dissipate forever into the dark.

# ? Apr 4, 2015 16:42

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

So my takeaway from this thread is that genre fiction is distinguished from more sophisticated stuff by quality of writing?

Example: A Canticle for Leibowitz is generally considered a masterpiece by most literary critics, despite being within the "genre" of science fiction (which was until recently not considered real literature).

# ? Apr 5, 2015 06:22

david crosby: Mar 2, 2007

AYC posted:

So my takeaway from this thread is that genre fiction is distinguished from more sophisticated stuff by quality of writing?

Example: A Canticle for Leibowitz is generally considered a masterpiece by most literary critics, despite being within the "genre" of science fiction (which was until recently not considered real literature).

Yeah that seems right to me. Lem = highbrow lit because of good writing/ideas, Gaiman = lowbrow/non-lit because of the bad writing + being married to amanda palmer.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 06:28

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

david crosby posted:

Yeah that seems right to me. Lem = highbrow lit because of good writing/ideas, Gaiman = lowbrow/non-lit because of the bad writing + being married to amanda palmer.

Ironically, I'm actually reading American Gods for my Religious & Science Fiction class at the moment. It's a'ight, but I am annoyed by the fact that nobody has commented on how weird a name "Shadow" is.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 06:31

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

AYC posted:

So my takeaway from this thread is that genre fiction is distinguished from more sophisticated stuff by quality of writing?

Age probably also helps in that respect. There's an above average chance that Stephen King is viewed as literature in 50 years or so.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 15:11

ulvir: Jan 2, 2005

AYC posted:

So my takeaway from this thread is that genre fiction is distinguished from more sophisticated stuff by quality of writing?

I'd say it's also got a lot to do with its adherence to/restrictions by the genre's rules and boundaries. regardless if the author chooses to subvert your expectations or whatever, you can pretty much go straight to a fantasy shelf and know almost exactly what you'll get without even reading the paratext.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 15:34

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

computer parts posted:

Age probably also helps in that respect. There's an above average chance that Stephen King is viewed as literature in 50 years or so.

How many detective story authors from a hundred years ago do we still talk about, and do we do so in terms of literature?

# ? Apr 5, 2015 15:58

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

AYC posted:

So my takeaway from this thread is that genre fiction is distinguished from more sophisticated stuff by quality of writing?

Example: A Canticle for Leibowitz is generally considered a masterpiece by most literary critics, despite being within the "genre" of science fiction (which was until recently not considered real literature).

Canticle for Liebowitz 2 is real good.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 16:00

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

Ras Het posted:

How many detective story authors from a hundred years ago do we still talk about, and do we do so in terms of literature?

Shrlock Holmes?

# ? Apr 5, 2015 16:30

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Ras Het posted:

How many detective story authors from a hundred years ago do we still talk about, and do we do so in terms of literature?

Only a few but I think King would be one of the few in the future

# ? Apr 5, 2015 16:51

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

Smoking Crow posted:

Only a few but I think King would be one of the few in the future

A lot of his stuff is just generic genre fluff, but occasionally he writes something truly wonderful.

If nothing else, The Stand is a masterpiece.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 17:01

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

Ras Het posted:

How many detective story authors from a hundred years ago do we still talk about, and do we do so in terms of literature?

egdar ellen poe

# ? Apr 5, 2015 17:10

pepperoni and keys: Sep 7, 2011; _{I think about food literally all day every day. It's a thing.}

Ras Het posted:

How many detective story authors from a hundred years ago do we still talk about, and do we do so in terms of literature?

GK Chesterton.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 18:20

WAY TO GO WAMPA!!: Oct 27, 2007

Could Wilkie Collins count?

# ? Apr 5, 2015 18:50

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Either we've hit peak irony or mother fuckers in here are seriously arguing Stephen King is entering the literary canon

# ? Apr 5, 2015 18:51

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Either we've hit peak irony or mother fuckers in here are seriously arguing Stephen King is entering the literary canon

It's ok, bad writers have entered the canon before

# ? Apr 5, 2015 18:52

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Smoking Crow posted:

It's ok, bad writers have entered the canon before

I could see him being something of a historical interest I guess

EDIT: but lol at the Stand being masterpiece

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 5, 2015

# ? Apr 5, 2015 18:56

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

Smoking Crow posted:

It's ok, bad writers have entered the canon before

All literature is subjective and there are no good or bad writers :mmmhmm:

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:35

Boatswain: May 29, 2012

AYC posted:

All literature is subjective and there are no good or bad writers

Nice

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:38

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

On an unrelated note what do you super-refined TBBers think of Neil Gaiman? Reading American Gods right now and it's entertaining, but not anything super mind blowing.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:39

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

AYC posted:

On an unrelated note what do you super-refined TBBers think of Neil Gaiman? Reading American Gods right now and it's entertaining, but not anything super mind blowing.

His greatest contribution to letters is Sandman

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:43

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

AYC posted:

All literature is subjective and there are no good or bad writers

Mind = blown

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:44

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Smoking Crow posted:

His greatest contribution to letters is Sandman

I started Sandman over a year ago and still haven't had the energy to finish it. It's just so... uuuggghhhhh. I am sure if all you read are fantasy stories and comics than his take on those genres is great and unique but unless you already buy in on the genre itself the whole thing is tedious and navel gazing.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:46

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I started Sandman over a year ago and still haven't had the energy to finish it. It's just so... uuuggghhhhh. I am sure if all you read are fantasy stories and comics than his take on those genres is great and unique but unless you already buy in on the genre itself the whole thing is tedious and navel gazing.

Real talk about comics right now: the greatest comic is Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth

ok now quit talking about the funnies

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:48

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

AYC posted:

On an unrelated note what do you super-refined TBBers think of Neil Gaiman? Reading American Gods right now and it's entertaining, but not anything super mind blowing.

He has a few genuinely good works but in a lot of his later work especially he's coasting.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:50

pepperoni and keys: Sep 7, 2011; _{I think about food literally all day every day. It's a thing.}

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Either we've hit peak irony or mother fuckers in here are seriously arguing Stephen King is entering the literary canon

Here is what Brainworm (the English professor in A/T) had to say about it 6 years ago:

Powered Descent posted:

Here's a strange one for you.

I know this isn't quite your specialty, but is there any contemporary literature (say, from 1950 onward) that you suspect future historians will regard as the classics of our time? Flash forward to an English Lit class at Tranquility Base University in the year 2309. What 20th and 21st century authors will your silver-jumpsuited counterpart remember in one breath with the Bard?

Will the class discuss Robert Heinlein and Arthur C. Clarke? J.D. Salinger and William Golding? Beverly Cleary and Judy Blume? Stephen King and Dean Koontz? Or even... J.K. Rowling and Stephanie Meyer?

Brainworm posted:

If I were betting, I'd split two ways:

1) Probably, people are going to remember the late 20th / early 21st as the infancy of recorded music, film, television, and various species of hypertext, regardless of whether those media produce any durable classics.

2) Of all the authors you've listed, Stephen King seems the most likely to win a place in the canon of American Naturalism. And he deserves it. It's worth remembering that most classics were commercial successes if not blockbusters -- that's a necessary, if not sufficient, condition for real durability. So that immediately excludes most avant-garde and academic novelists (and every post-1950 poet except Robert Frost).

Second, King swims against the current. I'll exclude The Stand for a second. Most post-1950 genre innovations have involved human beings accidentally breaking the world, or at least the threat of the world being broken by some human action, deliberate or no. Think of SF time travel plots for a second. In, say, The Time Machine, Wells doesn't give a poo poo about causality. Instead, you get a more or less allegorical extension of Wells's contemporary social divisions. In that sense, the text is more like Swift's Modest Proposal than anything.

But in any post-1950 time travel plot, the unwritten assumption is that people have the ability to irreparably break the world -- see "The Sound of Thunder" for an early example or, you know, any original time travel plot in film or television. This kind of anxiety pervades modern media, in one form or other, like you wouldn't believe.

King, on the other hand, generally tells a completely different kind of story (BTW, inventing an entirely new novel subgenre in the process), in which sympathetic characters' basic humanity is menaced by a threat that, generally speaking, is not a consequence of human action. Carrie's not a threat because she's an outcast. She's a threat because she can kill people by thinking. And Cujo isn't a threat because he was a terribly abused dog who turned vicious. He gets rabies in a totally natural way and menaces a mom and kid for no good reason at all.

Third, It's no small matter that (when he wasn't drunk or coked up) King's an extremely capable writer and versatile storyteller. Compare the way the story in Carrie is framed and forwarded to, well, any other author's first effort, and you'll see a huge difference. King has some real kung-fu, even if early success means he hasn't always needed to exercise it.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 19:55

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Zaito posted:

Here is what Brainworm (the English professor in A/T) had to say about it 6 years ago:

So he's going to be remembered because a lot of people like him and he writes less thematically potent stories.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 20:00

pepperoni and keys: Sep 7, 2011; _{I think about food literally all day every day. It's a thing.}

Apparently, yes.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 20:03

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 04:53

AYC: Mar 9, 2014; Ask me how I smoke weed, watch hentai, everyday and how it's unfair that governments limits my ability to do this. Also ask me why I have to write in green text in order for my posts to stand out.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

So he's going to be remembered because a lot of people like him and he writes less thematically potent stories.

I dunno, I personally liked picking apart the religious undertones in The Stand.

Though I am a bit biased as he was the first author I really got into; if nothing else I can credit him for making books a serious interest of mine.

# ? Apr 5, 2015 20:05

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