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I'm not at all implying bias or treating the 'wrong' people more harshly didn't happen, I'm talking about murdering people out in the open on a regular basis.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:31
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Toasticle posted:I'm not at all implying bias or treating the 'wrong' people more harshly didn't happen, I'm talking about muredring people out in the open on a regular basis. Oh booyyyyy. Listen, I'll try to put this very softly: you have no loving clue. The fact that cops wear some camo pants sometimes and have rifles in the car with helmets doesn't mean that they aren't better in every way today.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:32
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Toasticle posted:I'm not at all implying bias or treating the 'wrong' people more harshly didn't happen, I'm talking about murdering people out in the open on a regular basis. Yes, this used to happen a lot more often, especially to black people. Why do you think it didn't?
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Apr 10, 2015 21:33
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Because while my memory may well be failing, strangling someone out in the open for selling loose cigarettes or blowing away a guy in a toy store was never something you heard about. Maybe I should clarify: It's become so routine that doing it in full view of the public with video cameras/cell phones hasn't stopped it. Yes with no witnesses it happened but not in any way so loving blatantly as today.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:39
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Toasticle posted:Because while my memory may well be failing, strangling someone out in the open for selling loose cigarettes or blowing away a guy in a toy store was never something you heard about. Because no one gave a poo poo what the good old boys club did to the niggers on the other side of the railroad tracks?
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Apr 10, 2015 21:42
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Toasticle posted:Because while my memory may well be failing, strangling someone out in the open for selling loose cigarettes or blowing away a guy in a toy store was never something you heard about. It really did happen just as blatantly, and people approved of it happening. You think those cops who set dogs on the blacks marching in the civil rights marches were better than the cops we have today? More sensitive, less likely to shoot a guy running away from them? Why?
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Apr 10, 2015 21:44
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I said out in full view of the public not off somewhere where nobody saw it happen Edit Jesus gently caress can we acrptually have a conversation like adults without this bullshit. I'm obviously not talking about riots, I specifically said and am talking about the recent slew of completely (Rice) innocent kids or the toy gun guy, not loving open riots. Toasticle fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 21:44
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Toasticle posted:I said out in full view of the public not off somewhere where nobody saw it happen Nobody except other black people, that is. Seriously, what is your point of reference? Are you just arguing from your own reckons?
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Apr 10, 2015 21:46
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Toasticle posted:Because while my memory may well be failing, strangling someone out in the open for selling loose cigarettes or blowing away a guy in a toy store was never something you heard about. You never heard about it because it was completely normal and viewed by many as a positive. For example the local police would often take an active hand in lynching people. We're seeing a lot of frustration and anger over bad policing in the black community today, but it's not at the level of say the Watts Riots or the Rodney King Riots. poo poo is still reprehensible and change is desperately needed, but there is no way you can say that things are worse overall than they were twenty years ago.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:46
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I give, cops have been killing kids and innocent shoppers for decades, I just don't remember any of it. You win.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:50
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Toasticle posted:I give, cops have been killing kids and innocent shoppers for decades, I just don't remember any of it. They have, in the black community, and it didn't get reported on because we were incredibly racist and segregated. Why is this hard for you to accept? Seems pretty common sense to me.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:51
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I said I am wrong. What more do you want.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:53
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Growing up in the early 90s I recall there being a big dust up cause an NYPD officer killed a kid for pointing a toy gun at him, back when toy guns looked realistic, and that's why toy guns are banned in NYC. So yeah the police are terrible now, just slightly less so and in different ways than 30-40 years ago. Hell as much as I dislike the NYPD I'm sure as hell a lot fewer cops are on the take today than say in 1985.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:53
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Here's a legitimate and an acceptable way to arrest someone in the subway back in the better days during an undercover NYPD sting.
Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 21:54
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Zeitgueist posted:I see where folks are coming from and I don't believe the position against capital punishment is an easy one to hold if you see some really bad poo poo, and I say this as someone who has a reputation on here for getting real mad at this type of poo poo. Actually changing the punishment based on the crime is exactly what legal systems do, there's absolutely no inconsistency sorry.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:55
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Vahakyla posted:Here's a legitimate and an acceptable way to arrest someone in the subway back in the better days during an undercover NYPD sting. What's your argument? I have a vague feeling that you're full of poo poo from your previous arguments, but you've successfully set yourself up to reply in a contrary fashion to any followup statement someone might make in response.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:58
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tsa posted:Actually changing the punishment based on the crime is exactly what legal systems do, there's absolutely no inconsistency sorry. We change the punishment based on crime parameters but the death penalty is sought on a subjective basis with no real working definition. Sentencing can also be adjusted by the judge based on subjectivity as well but that's also an often abused feature of the legal system. But the issue at hand is if you are against the death penalty does that change when it's a Real Bad guy. If the answer is yes, you were never against the death penalty in the first place
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Apr 10, 2015 22:04
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For some reason people think that just because the DP doesn't provide deterrent for some crimes, it doesn't deter any crimes. This is entirely false, harsh penalties for public officials who grossly violate the public trust has been shown to reduce such behavior. Financial crimes are also shown to be highly reduced by harsher punishments, since usually a cost benefit analysis is done.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:05
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tsa posted:For some reason people think that just because the DP doesn't provide deterrent for some crimes, it doesn't deter any crimes. This is entirely false, harsh penalties for public officials who grossly violate the public trust has been shown to reduce such behavior. We should strive to be like China.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:06
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Devor posted:What's your argument? I have a vague feeling that you're full of poo poo from your previous arguments, but you've successfully set yourself up to reply in a contrary fashion to any followup statement someone might make in response. I just argued with a person that posited that police were better back in the day and that times are getting worse which clearly is not the case unless one only goes by what happens in one's own upper class white development.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:07
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botany posted:Militarization is a recent phenomenon but US cops used to be way more blatantly racist. You have to remember that the reason you didn't hear anything about racial profiling, for instance, is that racial profiling was official policy and legal until the DOJ made it haraam in 2003. Anecdotes from 60s-70s NYPD officers indicate that it was downright common to hear milder slurs like "guinea" thrown at suspects or even just uncooperative civilians.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:10
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Toasticle posted:So is this a 'it's always been like this but now we hear about it because internet' or are you seriously implying the militarization and overall attitude of us vs them has not gotten worse in the lst three decades? That's because the systematic murder of black men was not considered to be newsworthy or a problem until recently. In addition, camera phones have made it possible to document police murder.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:12
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tsa posted:For some reason people think that just because the DP doesn't provide deterrent for some crimes, it doesn't deter any crimes. This is entirely false, harsh penalties for public officials who grossly violate the public trust has been shown to reduce such behavior. People think it doesn't work as a deterrent because it's never been shown to in the US, also most crimes which end up getting death penalty aren't crimes where you stop and think "hmm maybe I shouldn't mass murder these people" or the criminal isn't in their right mind. The death penalty is stupid and also not really defensible on any number of fronts other than maybe bloodthirst.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:13
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Vahakyla posted:I just argued with a person that posited that police were better back in the day and that times are getting worse which clearly is not the case unless one only goes by what happens in one's own upper class white development. Im white. Lower class and had exactly one white friend back then. I spent a lot of time in these areas around the people who I incorrectly remembered things like that not happening too nor talked about except for two I can recall that were more than likely stupid enough to draw on a cop which everyone knew and felt "dumb fucker probably pulled his gun out". I am not re-arguing anything, just replacing your straw man with the actual person you were arguing with. And both survived, one got shot once, the other from what I heard poo poo his pants and dropped when they drew on him. Toasticle fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 22:17
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SedanChair posted:That's because the systematic murder of black men was not considered to be newsworthy or a problem until recently. In addition, camera phones have made it possible to document police murder. And the killing of poor white men is still not news worthy. Killedbypolice.net has a disturbing number of shootings vs unarmed individuals. They seem to be willing to shoot everyone, even Asians!
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Apr 10, 2015 22:26
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The SF sheriff's deputy who let a federal prisoner escape is getting fired, and might face criminal charges: http://www.ktvu.com/story/28773716/san-francisco-deputy-investigated-in-county-jail-break And the FBI is investigating the SF Sheriff's dept. because of the whole "let's make prisoners fight" thing: http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/10/fbi-agrees-to-investigate-allegations-of-forced-inmate-fighting-at-san-francisco-jail/ http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfranci...ent?oid=2926163 Gotta love how the Sheriff implies that the public defender investigating on his own , and not alerting him to what was going on, contributed to the fighting continuing. Yeah, I can't imagine why the public defender wouldn't trust the Sheriff's dept. (such a paragon of virtue) to police and investigate itself fairly and properly. Supposedly the FBI investigation is because the Sheriff requested it, in order for there to be an impartial investigation....but something tells me that if this had been brought to the Sheriff's attention earlier, he would have tried as hard as possible to handle it internally with a minimum of outside attention, and without getting the feds involved.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:33
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Obdicut posted:Unless you can translate this into legal terms, though, it's useless. "No realistic possibility" isn't something that you can really adjudicate. How do you create an actual framework to administer this and put it into legal terms that won't be abused? This has literally nothing to do with consistency. I really don't understand why this comes up so much about the DP though, being consistent is hardly a concern for most people here. tsa fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 22:50
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tsa posted:This has literally nothing to do with consistency. Why are you talking about consistency? I'm saying that you can't allow the death penalty, at all, because there's no way to write "When you're really, really, really sure" in a legal fashion. There's no objective measure of the level of evidence.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:51
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Obdicut posted:Why are you talking about consistency? I'm saying that you can't allow the death penalty, at all, because there's no way to write "When you're really, really, really sure" in a legal fashion. There's no objective measure of the level of evidence. has to get a unanimous vote in favor of the death penalty in the US Senate and Supreme Court on a case by case basis 
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Apr 10, 2015 22:56
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Accretionist posted:In a nutshell, because I'm on my phone, you'd want to come at the issue with epidemiological studies, Why? There's plenty of other ways to model it and no real obvious reason you would treat it like a disease. Toasticle posted:I said out in full view of the public not off somewhere where nobody saw it happen This is exactly why we need to collect data, because what you remember is completely irrelevant and not evidence of anything. tsa fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 22:58
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blunt for century posted:has to get a unanimous vote in favor of the death penalty in the US Senate and Supreme Court on a case by case basis Better idea, Death Penalty is allowed, but the governor of the state has to be the one to carry it out and not by proxy, he has to actually pull the trigger, or push the button or whatever.
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Apr 10, 2015 23:16
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Toasticle posted:Man why did you have to quit I quit because my wife, who makes waay more money than me, got a job in another state. Also, I wanted to be a school teacher. Zeitgueist posted:Hmm seems like policework has a tendency to drive out well-meaning and well-adjusted sensible people. There are a lot of well-meaning and sensible cops. Usually it's the new guys who want to save the world and help every troubled person. But there's just so much rape/murder/drugs/child abuse/rage/horrible stuff a human being can be exposed to before they have a personality change.
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Apr 10, 2015 23:20
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Powercrazy posted:Better idea, Death Penalty is allowed, but the governor of the state has to be the one to carry it out and not by proxy, he has to actually pull the trigger, or push the button or whatever. gently caress it, at that point, make it a beheading with a huge axe. That way we get rid of the flabby ancient conservatives
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Apr 10, 2015 23:20
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Its a hot news month for the coppers. http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/protests-explode-after-kkk-plot-kill-black-men-florida-prison-exposed quote:Protests Explode After KKK Plot to Kill Black Men in Florida Prison Is Exposed http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/family-releases-dashcam-cops-killing-mentally-ill-son-his-underwear-holding-broom quote:Family Releases Dashcam of Cops Killing Mentally Ill Son in His Underwear for Holding a Broom Its like the dogs are trained to attack or something. Oh yeah, and on that last one: quote:A lawyer for the family alleges that ever since the Chief of Police was recently caught soliciting a prostitute and fired from the department, they have received no updates on the case. They no longer know who is even in charge of it. They also believe there is more footage that the department is withholding. Its like the entire police culture of America is ...? We will all soon be safe from "filming police committing crimes" if NY has any say in the matter. http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/04/eric-garner-video-ramsey-orta-rikers quote:The Guy Who Filmed Eric Garner's Death Is Still Fighting To Get Out of Jail Or maybe that dude "needed" arresting 27 times with almost no charges filed?
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Apr 10, 2015 23:35
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Toasticle posted:I said I am wrong. What more do you want. You didn't though, you got incredibly pissy and defensive when we pointed out that your (actually completely correct) position of "I never heard about police abuses like I do now" is explained by the fact that they were not understood to be abuses back then. And yeah, that's the point: you would not have heard of a black guy getting choked to death over cigarettes because who gave a poo poo about that back then?
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Apr 10, 2015 23:55
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Sorry to come back late to these, but allow me to reply.Agrajag posted:I honestly can't get mad at a robber killing his victim for fear of being identified and having his life taken away. Mavric posted:Planting the taser and lying about it shows he is evil. If covering his own rear end was more important than the truth then he is evil. I'm mad at him because he murdered somebody. The fact that he tried to get away with it after is just human nature because getting convicted of murder destroys your life. The robbery example is a poor comparison. Walker is already dead and nothing we do to the officer is going to bring him back. Trying to get away with it is still a crime, but a trifle barely worth mentioning compared to the murder itself. Deciding that you would prefer to end somebody's life to avoid the penalty for a much lesser crime is an entirely different valuation altogether. The drunk driver is a better example, and again I condemn them much more for the fact that they killed somebody doing something criminally stupid than that they didn't want to have a decade of their lives taken away after the damage had already been done. It's not noble, but do you really expect people to willingly face consequences of that degree, especially considering that they will be purely punitive rather than offering any sort of restitution to the victims? I really wish my country would get over its raging boner for punishing criminals instead of reducing victims. botany posted:You didn't though, you got incredibly pissy and defensive when we pointed out that your (actually completely correct) position of "I never heard about police abuses like I do now" is explained by the fact that they were not understood to be abuses back then. And yeah, that's the point: you would not have heard of a black guy getting choked to death over cigarettes because who gave a poo poo about that back then? He has already conceded the point twice holy poo poo shut up and win graciously.
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Apr 11, 2015 00:20
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botany posted:You didn't though, you got incredibly pissy and defensive when we pointed out that your (actually completely correct) position of "I never heard about police abuses like I do now" is explained by the fact that they were not understood to be abuses back then. And yeah, that's the point: you would not have heard of a black guy getting choked to death over cigarettes because who gave a poo poo about that back then? Not to mention we also hear about it more these days due to the internet and 24/7 news with easily accessed archives and such. Even if a similar incident were reported on in 1960 or 1980, it most likely would have stayed local news.
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Apr 11, 2015 00:27
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I think that while police aren't literally members of the Klan these days, there's a lot of subconscious/institutional racism going on in police departments and the fact that police aren't explicitly killing black men for the race doesn't mean it's not still happening as bad or close to as bad. Combined with the media finally starting to notice the situation which the community has been yelling about for decades.
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Apr 11, 2015 00:31
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botany posted:You didn't though, you got incredibly pissy and defensive when we pointed out that your (actually completely correct) position of "I never heard about police abuses like I do now" is explained by the fact that they were not understood to be abuses back then. And yeah, that's the point: you would not have heard of a black guy getting choked to death over cigarettes because who gave a poo poo about that back then? No, I said I don't remember it being this blatant and out in the open and even said it did happen just not choking people to death out in the open. I tried to clarify that's what I was arguing since I wasn't clear that's what I was trying to say. My mistake. Again: I am not saying cops do more awful poo poo than in the past. Only that it's out in the open and despite cameras and cell phones the only change is trying to make it illegal to film a cop doing what they've a,ways done. Sorry if I get pissy but don't try and tell me you don't get frustrated when people argue what they want you have said and not what you are trying (and I failed) to say. I was wrong. No qualifications. Cops have a,ways been horrible it's just a matter of degrees, I concede that. Ok? Edit: before I get jumped on again, SOME cops. There are lots of good ones. Toasticle fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 00:51
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SLED claims that they were skeptical before the release of the video already.quote:the South Carolina law enforcement agency investigating the fatal police shooting of an apparently unarmed man who was shot in the back over the weekend said Thursday they knew almost immediately that something didn't appear right. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/walter-scott-shooting/investigators-we-had-doubts-about-walter-scott-shooting-video-n338926 Officer Slager also had a bond hearing through videolink: http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nbc-news/police-officer-michael-slager-appears-before-judge-via-videolink-424680515982 Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 01:04
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