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Blue Raider posted:over/under how long itll take dnd to get butthurt about this thread and it either closed or renamed and moved? reminder: you are currently posting in said thread and not in a possibly-existing just as retarded offsite mock thread 
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Apr 9, 2015 18:28
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I think you meant to quote the person I quoted, since I agree that there's some gain to be had. What are the negative consequences from a) automatically disbelieving any rape accusation, b) automatically disbelieving most rape accusations, c) only believing rape accusations that fit with "common sense", and d) becoming completely apathetic to any accusations of rape? Surely we should compare these instead of chasing after something that is purely positive in outcomes.
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Apr 9, 2015 18:36
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blowfish posted:reminder: you are currently posting in said thread and not in a possibly-existing just as retarded offsite mock thread yeah theres not a 2 day old precedent for this or anything
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Apr 9, 2015 18:49
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Blue Raider posted:yeah theres not a 2 day old precedent for this or anything which thread was that again
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Apr 9, 2015 18:53
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blowfish posted:which thread was that again It got moved to E/N and its name changed to i hate women in a major way
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Apr 9, 2015 18:56
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rape accusations or: how i learned that rolling stone misreported my loving the struggle snuggle :iamafag:
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Apr 9, 2015 19:56
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TehSaurus posted:The thing is that you guys are both victims of the same lovely power structures. The falsely accused and the rape victims both benefit from a system that treats sex crimes in a reasonable way. Even if the discourse here is somewhat disappointing, at least everyone apparently agrees that the extant system is terrible at handling sex crimes. I liked to think this way at first but now... I don't think it had anything to do with the patriarchy, power structures, or feminism. I think my ex bff just really cared for her. The people who silently cut me out just didn't want to get tangled up in drama. The people who confronted me wanted to be good people. Of the four people who didn't ghost me two are hardcore feminists, one is a skater dude, and one is an american apparel bro.The people who condemned me include feminists, PUAs, gamers, drug dealers... None of this had anything to do with ideological movements. Just people trying to do their best, i guess.
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Apr 9, 2015 23:39
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It sounds like you are overly invested in a network of friends who are largely worthless and prone to drama. You're better off without them.
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Apr 9, 2015 23:43
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Maybe. Overly invested sure, it's easy to get emotional when your entire life gets flipped turned upside down. Worthless and drama prone... that's pretty much the human experience. Would we really do anything different? You seem pretty hard nosed, how would you treat an accused rapist in your midst? I myself might have done no different then my former bff in his situation, and he mine.
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Apr 10, 2015 00:01
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Blue Raider posted:over/under how long itll take dnd to get butthurt about this thread and it either closed or renamed and moved? The D&D Rape Thread Conspiracy
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Apr 10, 2015 00:12
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Yeah I don't know at all. I don't think we can get humans to stop getting their blood up and choosing one friend's version over another's for no good reason. What's distressing to me is how the macho "you raped her bro" poo poo may be getting in the way of the woman getting treatment. If somebody I knew was accused of rape I would probably distance myself from them until they were exonerated, to be honest. Your situation never reached the criminal justice system; maybe it would have been better for you if you had actually been charged, so that the facts could be aired and you cleanly exonerated.
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Apr 10, 2015 00:16
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SedanChair posted:If somebody I knew was accused of rape I would probably distance myself from them until they were exonerated, to be honest. Your situation never reached the criminal justice system; maybe it would have been better for you if you had actually been charged, so that the facts could be aired and you cleanly exonerated. This could never happen though because there wouldn't be enough evidence to effectively prove one way or the other. He would almost certainly be found not guilty, but as obdicut has been saying, there is difference between what the court says and what public opinion believes. If his friends (and you) didn't believe him before the trial there would be no reason for them (or you) to believe him after. Honestly there probably wouldn't even be enough evidence for a trial in the first place. The difficulty with rape is that it so often comes down to one person's word against the other's, so it would probably be good of you to ask the other person for their side of what happened in this hypothetical situation. E: it would almost be good if there was some way for a man to instigate a rape investigation on himself, but that would probably lead to violations of the woman's privacy. Miltank fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 00:32
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SedanChair posted:Yeah I don't know at all. I don't think we can get humans to stop getting their blood up and choosing one friend's version over another's for no good reason. What's distressing to me is how the macho "you raped her bro" poo poo may be getting in the way of the woman getting treatment. Yeah I'm sure being indicted for rape would have been a a major stress relief. You stupid gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2015 00:44
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah I'm sure being indicted for rape would have been a a major stress relief. lol honestly
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Apr 10, 2015 00:51
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah I'm sure being indicted for rape would have been a a major stress relief. It would lead to some kind of resolution at least. In the current situation it just seems like back-and-forth drama with no end. If our culture wasn't so punitive towards women who accuse men of rape, maybe she would have been able to get the help she appears to need.
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Apr 10, 2015 00:56
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Sedan Chair is the earthly avatar of Poe's law. E: every post you make can be read as your serious opinion, or a ridiculous straw man dreamed up by /pol/. Miltank fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 01:01
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But it was all right. Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He clicked Post.
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Apr 10, 2015 04:40
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Obdicut posted:What the gently caress is the point of this thread? Apparently it's for Obdicut to jump in and brutally attack a rape survivor. I'd ask "would you do that in person?" but I worry that rather than a rhetorical question his answer would be yes. Miltank posted:Sedan Chair is the earthly avatar of Poe's law. It's too bad the other thread on the UVA thing was mysteriously moved, because SedanChair no doubt has something meaningful to say about people who fabricate stories and even entire identities in order to give a narrative more credibility. Which is obvious relevant to the Rolling Stone/UVA case. Are they mentally ill(as some have suggested of "Jackie")?
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Apr 10, 2015 05:45
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The Insect Court posted:Apparently it's for Obdicut to jump in and brutally attack a rape survivor. I'd ask "would you do that in person?" but I worry that rather than a rhetorical question his answer would be yes. I don't think it was very mysterious why the thread got moved. Especially with its new title and exclamation marx commenting in thread.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:42
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Effectronica posted:What are the negative consequences from a) automatically disbelieving any rape accusation, b) automatically disbelieving most rape accusations, c) only believing rape accusations that fit with "common sense", and d) becoming completely apathetic to any accusations of rape? Surely we should compare these instead of chasing after something that is purely positive in outcomes. The right answer is e) investigate rape claims. Which, when it comes down to it, most people agree with. The disagreement is really 'what do you do when the results of the investigation don't back the person's story'. Or, in other words, to what extent do you owe an accusation some belief? I think it's perfectly understandable to believe in a story less, and start considering the possibility that the story is made up, if the facts don't line up. You don't owe your allegiance to the claim. The laughable thing about the UVa case is that there are still people saying 'well the details of the Rolling Stone story are all false but it's still possible that she was raped'. Well, yes, it is still possible. But at this point you don't really owe it to her (or anyone) to believe that she was raped. It's ok. It's crossed the line of 'believe the story'. It's ok to think she wasn't raped even if maybe she was. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 07:27
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The Insect Court posted:Apparently it's for Obdicut to jump in and brutally attack a rape survivor. I'd ask "would you do that in person?" but I worry that rather than a rhetorical question his answer would be yes. You don't even believe your own bullshit, do you? Pedro De Heredia posted:The disagreement is really 'what do you do when the results of the investigation don't back the person's story'. Or, in other words, to what extent do you owe an accusation some belief? I think it's perfectly understandable to believe in a story less, and start considering the possibility that the story is made up, if the facts don't line up. You don't owe your allegiance to the claim. It also doesn't matter if we believe she was raped or not. It has literally no effect on anything. The extent to which we owe a general accusation belief--not one with claims of broken glass and stuff like that--is pretty high, since the incidence of false rape accusations is very, very low. But the UVA case wasn't ever a general case. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 11:52
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I didn't mean to get all E/N in D&D so I'll try to tie this all back. Sedan has a couple points. It would be a relief to have someone with authority (Judge or whatever.) come out an explicitly say Not Guilty. However I don't think it would change the reality of the situation. As was pointed out earlier w/r/t OJ, people make up their own minds on these things and nobody on either side has any faith in the criminal justice system. He's right again, she needs help that she's frankly not going to get. On UV, RS, and Erdely... If anybody deserves punishment it's Erdely. I consider what she did close to vigilantism, dispensing her own brand of justice on those she viewed as wrong doers. The fact she didn't even apologize to those she wronged is a special kind of pathetic unrepentant gently caress up. We might not be a court of law, there's no civil or criminal bearing on what we say. There are however, massive social implications. There's little doubt in my mind the members of that frat have had their lives changed for the worse since then. RS is guilty too. Giving a platform for unsubstantiated accusations is dangerously irresponsible. Followed closely by all the cheerleading from the SJW types who consider this whole thing a team sporting event. All of these people not only damaged those frat boys lives, but the lives of every rape victim to come after this. Do these victims want their story to become national headlines, turning their struggle into a tabloid to be consumed by the masses eager to see how their team is doing? As for condemning frats as a whole, I disagree with that as well. I'm sure there are more then a couple totally worthless and actively lovely ones. (SAE) Remember though, these are mostly teenagers, moving away from home into a totally new city. It can be scary. It's comforting to be surrounded by a like minded community of friends. The negative stereotypes associated with frats are basically the exact same ones that exist about men. So maybe it's not frats that are the problem, maybe it's just us. That'll be my last point before backing out. Maybe it does a disservice to those involved to hijack their pain for an ideological purpose. Hammering in all this poo poo about patriarchy and feminism into these individual struggles takes away from the identities and interpersonal relationships that play a more key role in these events. Just as protesters descended on Ferguson to protest against police militarism in the wake of Michael Browns shooting they essentially hijacked the movement about individual justice for their own selfish purposes, to feel good about doing something. audacity fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 13:26
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I'm not sure it's constructive to make the kind of comparisons OP makes. Is it better to be raped, or have a leg chopped off? How about seeing a friend get killed, or being raped? It's asinine. Rape, being the crime it is, can be impossible to prove absent the cases where a rape kit returns a result (which depends on the victim being very quick and proactive about reporting, which is a harsh demand to make of a victim). The fundamental process of the criminal justice system that we have is, however, perfectly acceptable. There are strong reasons behind assuming innocence and shifting the burden of proof to where it is and all the rest of it, and that obviously must not be changed for any specific crime. Journalism should also always follow the same model. Faith must be placed in any court's results, not just because you hope they return a good result, but the legitimacy of justice institutions is necessary for any functioning society. Where we see problems are were the process is not being followed through. Kits remaining untested is unacceptable for example. But context is important here. Something like only 8% of rape accusations are statistically regarded as unfounded. As a phenomenon, it's just not that common. I don't think it's right to take that statistic and, therefore, assume that any accusation is probably true, because that's profiling. If you do that, someone's going to exploit it for their own gain. You're better off not profiling, so I think in general, socially, assume innocence (even if you have every right to, personally, assume guilt and then not associate with them or whatever). And that includes accusations of false accusations as well. So if you want to tackle rape and other problems of sexual violence seriously, make sure the process is followed, and of course go for those big causal factors for crime: reassembling broken families, protecting children from child abuse, and getting on top of income inequality (overall and by race/sex). And as a bonus, false accusations must also fall. So, generally I guess, just keep some perspective, don't freak out about it. False accusations happen, rapes happen, you want to get serious about it, take a look at the big picture. I'm Barack Obama, and I approve of this message.
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Apr 10, 2015 14:49
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The right answer is e) investigate rape claims. Which, when it comes down to it, most people agree with. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking what the overall position should be when investigating and when hearing about such cases. Should we be automatically skeptical of all cases? Should we be automatically skeptical of the majority of cases? Should we be skeptical of those cases which don't fit our picture of what the crime should look like? Should we be apathetic of all cases? Because c) is what people have generally been endorsing- that we should disbelieve anything that doesn't fit our preconceptions of what a "real rape" looks like. So, using for example the idea that women who have been having an affair or are extramaritally pregnant have something to gain from a false accusation, should we investigate any accusation they make from the perspective that they're probably lying?
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Apr 10, 2015 14:52
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What about men who are raped? It is way harder for them to report it than for women, and I would argue far more socially damaging.
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Apr 10, 2015 15:02
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DONT CARE BUTTON posted:What about men who are raped? It is way harder for them to report it than for women, and I would argue far more socially damaging. The point is that it's a result of the same misogynist culture that feeds rape and domestic abuse of women. Men who are placed into the positions of women, by being victims of rape and abuse, aren't seen as "real men" by that same culture.
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Apr 10, 2015 15:13
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Everybody in America agrees rape is bad. Except when it is performed my heroic soldiers on the citizens in countries they occupy (Japan, Iraq, Germany), when somebody actually wants to prosecute rape or when somebody actually acknowledges rape is bad. But besides that everybody in America is fiercly anti-rape. 
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Apr 10, 2015 18:04
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Rape, like slavery will always exist, and any slowing of its progress is problematic.
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Apr 10, 2015 18:07
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the yikes guy
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Apr 10, 2015 23:04
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Obdicut posted:OP conflates being accused of rape with actually being convicted of rape, which sucks bad. Nevvy Z posted:The OP is just arguing against some strawman. This thread is useless. FactsAreUseless posted:Because that same barrage is applied to all rape accusers with the default assumption being that they're false, which, again, isn't supported by any data.
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Apr 11, 2015 00:25
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The OP made a good post agreeing with the post of mine you quote, actually.
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Apr 11, 2015 01:21
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FactsAreUseless posted:The OP made a good post agreeing with the post of mine you quote, actually. Woah woah hey woah we can't let what anybody actually said get in the way of our glib dismissal of any nuance that might have been contained therein. What's wrong with you man
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Apr 11, 2015 02:37
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DONT CARE BUTTON posted:What about men who are raped? It is way harder for them to report it than for women, and I would argue far more socially damaging. Generally they turn to drink or drugs. A friend of mine told me that he was raped when he was 14 by an older guy from his school. We didn't talk about it after he mentioned it but he was and is an alcoholic substance abuser who has self harmed . I don't think this is unusual
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Apr 11, 2015 04:58
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nm
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Apr 11, 2015 05:06
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You know false rape stories keep hitting the front page of reddit like they are big issues. I'm really worried as to who may be pushing the stories. There's obviously some kind of raiding/brigading going on and it's pretty frightening. I'm really worried it's political operatives instead of just creep red pillers or women haters.
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Apr 11, 2015 06:25
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Effectronica posted:That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking what the overall position should be when investigating and when hearing about such cases. Should we be automatically skeptical of all cases? Should we be automatically skeptical of the majority of cases? Should we be skeptical of those cases which don't fit our picture of what the crime should look like? Should we be apathetic of all cases? You should start by believing the story but looking for corroboration of it, and allow for the possibility of skepticism if the pieces don't line up. quote:Because c) is what people have generally been endorsing- that we should disbelieve anything that doesn't fit our preconceptions of what a "real rape" looks like. So, using for example the idea that women who have been having an affair or are extramaritally pregnant have something to gain from a false accusation, should we investigate any accusation they make from the perspective that they're probably lying? I don't think this would be the usual sequence of events. What would happen is that you start investigating the claim, and in the process of investigating the claim, you find out that the woman was having an affair, or was pregnant. You didn't start from the perspective that they were lying, you just found possible reasons why they would lie. Anyway, an affair or a pregnancy aren't really alarming, unless every other part of the story doesn't check out. Acknowledging that there are potential reasons in specific cases why a woman would lie doesn't mean that the poison of such a mysoginist idea is going to spread and taint your entire analysis of the situation, y'know. You guys seem worried that any skepticism of a story will become total skepticism. Like the mere thought itself is dangerous or something.
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Apr 11, 2015 07:46
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PerpetualSelf posted:You know false rape stories keep hitting the front page of reddit like they are big issues. I'm really worried as to who may be pushing the stories. There's obviously some kind of raiding/brigading going on and it's pretty frightening. I'm really worried it's political operatives instead of just creep red pillers or women haters. Im genuinely curious about whose political agenda you think is trying to push those stories
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Apr 11, 2015 14:34
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Pedro De Heredia posted:You should start by believing the story but looking for corroboration of it, and allow for the possibility of skepticism if the pieces don't line up. Okay, so who are these people who refuse to accept skepticism no matter what? I don't think that they exist. I think you made them up.
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Apr 11, 2015 14:36
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Woah woah hey woah we can't let what anybody actually said get in the way of our glib dismissal of any nuance that might have been contained therein. What's wrong with you man
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Apr 11, 2015 14:54
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boy its such a shame there isnt more rigourous debate standards in debt and disco i can't imagine what were missing out on with our moderation teams lax standards on posting quality in the home of such great threads as fight me about my religeon, i dont like that people who say theyve been raped are taken seriously, women am i right?, region specific whining, and how i mine for economy?
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Apr 11, 2015 20:52
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