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Rent-A-Cop posted:It isn't just the racist shitheads. Nobody likes having the bureaucracy crawl up their rear end. Especially when "federal oversight" nine times out of ten turns into simply producing reams and reams of reports that nobody will ever read and doing it without any additional funding. Well. Better federal oversight, rather than just more of it. A metric shitload of additional funding would be a good starting point, especially since "gut federal program's funding to cripple it, proclaim it useless to justify further demolishing it" is a time-honored Republican tactic. I mean, I can't really see how to address the situation without meaningful federal intervention, since authoritarianism, racism, and brutality seem to be "working as intended" for a lot of the shittier boroughs. Maybe some sort of financial assistance for better training and retention of qualified personnel instead of police getting headhunted and brain-drained by other employers?
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:19 |
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# ? May 29, 2024 22:45 |
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Is there even a national standard on Police officer training? I don't think there is. A good start is a requirement for Police forces to have to submit reports on shootings on a national level something that's not required.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:20 |
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The problem with training a cop who is that the second he is off his probationary period he is a great candidate for a better agency who now won't have to pay nearly as much to train him. Small police agencies have a real problem retaining quality people because many of them don't pay for poo poo, have crap benefits, and police real rear end-end-of-nowhere jurisdictions. If you're non-retarded 12 months of experience without any major fuckups can land you a job with a for-realsies police department or a suit-and-tie government agency. Doubly true if you're a woman or a minority. Serious question: do you think more federalization is an answer to this? As in, actual federal police officers policing Bumfuck, Idaho.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:23 |
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Obdicut posted:Serious question: do you think more federalization is an answer to this? As in, actual federal police officers policing Bumfuck, Idaho.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:36 |
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http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150408_Delco_cops__Drinks_on_us.htmlquote:Police in Newtown Square are looking for a few volunteers - to get drunk and eat free pizza.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:42 |
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Obdicut posted:Serious question: do you think more federalization is an answer to this? As in, actual federal police officers policing Bumfuck, Idaho. Some countries do actually do this, it could certainly reduce some issues but would create a whole host of others.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:42 |
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I've tried to find another civilized nation with so many local police services per capita and I don't think there are any. There are occasional local parking enforcement of some kind of licencing, but average patrol police is always centralized to a very large extent in other countries.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:43 |
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Radbot posted:I'm taking issue with the use of "overqualified" here, to refer to police officers needing to be intelligent. Let's start with why you think being intelligent necessarily makes you overqualified to be a cop. I've personally been turned down for a job, because I was a dumb kid that thought listing an A+ certification was a smart thing to do on a retail job application, but that's just sound business.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:44 |
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twodot posted:I've personally been turned down for a job, because I was a dumb kid that thought listing an A+ certification was a smart thing to do on a retail job application, but that's just sound business. That's pretty odd considering that A+ is a retail-level certification (used to work at a CompUSA with people with A+ on the floor, not in the shop). On the other hand, I work at a corporate employer getting paid very well, and they want as intelligent a person as possible in this job. Why the difference there? Virtually everyone wants a better job than they have, and yet it's only in the police and retail where we see the issue of purposefully hiring the less intelligent. Radbot fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Apr 13, 2015 |
# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:47 |
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Obdicut posted:Serious question: do you think more federalization is an answer to this? As in, actual federal police officers policing Bumfuck, Idaho. I think consolidation at the State level could help, but honestly I don't think a dearth of smart applicants is anywhere close to the biggest obstacle in improving policing practices.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:47 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:I think consolidation at the State level could help, but honestly I don't think a dearth of smart applicants is anywhere close to the biggest obstacle in improving policing practices. This wasn't mostly about 'smart', which isn't really something either measurable or evaluable. You can be super-smart and still be a total fuckup, or super-smart and still be wildly authoritarian and abusive. I don't get why 'smarter' cops would be better. More 'emotionally intelligent', maybe. I was just addressing that small towns aren't going to be able to hold onto talented people--people who demonstrate, on the job, that they can do it and not gently caress up majorly. Whether they can achieve that because they're 'smart' or because they have common sense or whatever is besides the point. Talent drain from small towns to big cities seems like a problem.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:52 |
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Radbot posted:That's pretty odd considering that A+ is a retail-level certification (used to work at a CompUSA with people with A+ on the floor, not in the shop). quote:On the other hand, I work at a corporate employer getting paid very well, and they want as intelligent a person as possible in this job. Why the difference there?
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 20:56 |
Intelligence isn't a problem except in less intelligent officers being more malleable. What officers need is empathy, the ability to make judgement calls that minimize harm even to criminals, and training that brings more focus onto non-violent conflict resolution and negotiation instead of emphasizing maintaining total control and treating patrols as wartime and civilians as the enemy. I'm sure Slager isn't a stupid man. But he's certainly not one who can make good judgement calls and is pretty authoritarian and brutal if accounts of his past behavior indicate anything.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:04 |
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In Germany (and other countries) the police have to account for every shot fired, let alone every person they kill. That would be a good start.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:36 |
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Well, Reserve Officer Bates was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1...cb4fdabbf4.htmlquote:“Mr. Bates is charged with Second-Degree Manslaughter involving culpable negligence. Oklahoma law defines culpable negligence as ‘the omission to do something which a reasonably careful person would do, or the lack of the usual ordinary care and caution in the performance of an act usually and ordinarily exercised by a person under similar circumstances and conditions,’” District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler said in the statement. Probably the correct charge.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:38 |
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twodot posted:Your corporate employer is probably able to arbitrarily incentive an arbitrarily smart person. Like if a literal omniscient entity showed up for an entry level job, you can just make them CEO/whatever. In my city if you want to make detective, you need to work for three years minimum before you're even allowed to take the test. Sergeant is minimum five years. Nope. There are no promotions in my department - there haven't been for the last four years. I'm incented solely by the folks I work with (I like them) and the money I earn (I like that too). It's like that for most people in a corporate environment.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:39 |
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I don't know if that would even be possible legally. Although I support the idea of greater centralization at least at the state level. In my opinion there should be more consistent training for both police officers and police management and a disconnection of local policing from local government revenues if not from local government altogether. Yeah, stronger state-level control with better federal oversight of those actors would probably be a better idea, since the sheer ridiculous scale of the US makes European-style total centralization much less workable.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:44 |
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Radbot posted:Nope. There are no promotions in my department - there haven't been for the last four years. I'm incented solely by the folks I work with (I like them) and the money I earn (I like that too). It's like that for most people in a corporate environment.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:46 |
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This is quite common to train officers on how to perform sobriety tests on actual compliant (or trying to be compliant) drunks. I've done the training before, and done the drinking before.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:46 |
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twodot posted:Ok, your company is run by idiots then. I think you're the idiot if you think most people get promotions instead of moving between jobs these days. Maybe you need a bit of education about what the corporate life is like.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:47 |
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Radbot posted:I think you're the idiot if you think most people get promotions instead of moving between jobs these days. Maybe you need a bit of education about what the corporate life is like.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:52 |
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twodot posted:You need to understand the difference between strategy and reality. Hiring people you know you can't provide market compensation for is bad long term strategy, because they will leave for a better job and you will be stuck eating the training costs and loss of tribal knowledge. It turns out that in reality, lots of companies engage in bad long term strategies (yours included apparently), this does not impact whether it is a bad strategy. Welcome to 2015, I guess? Feel free to criticize strategy, we're talking about reality here.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:53 |
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hobbesmaster posted:Well, Reserve Officer Bates was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1...cb4fdabbf4.html quote:"He made an error," [Sheriff Stanley] Glanz said. "How many errors are made in an operating room every week?" Cichlid the Loach fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Apr 13, 2015 |
# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:55 |
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Radbot posted:Welcome to 2015, I guess? Feel free to criticize strategy, we're talking about reality here.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 21:58 |
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pointsofdata posted:In Germany (and other countries) the police have to account for every shot fired, let alone every person they kill. That would be a good start. This is an honestly interesting proposition.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 22:44 |
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Armani posted:This is an honestly interesting proposition. Account to whom? Because pretty much every department requires officers to report discharging their weapons ASAP. I can really easily see this "common-sense proposition" turning into another one of those unfunded mandatory reporting systems that no one ever reads.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 23:17 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Thank you both for illustrating my point. Additional context: New London is a shithole in a remote region of the state with high turnover for all its government jobs. Get hired. Get tenure. Get transferred.
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# ? Apr 13, 2015 23:31 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Account to whom? Because pretty much every department requires officers to report discharging their weapons ASAP. I can really easily see this "common-sense proposition" turning into another one of those unfunded mandatory reporting systems that no one ever reads. Account to anyone but the black hole that gobbles up anything to do with cops and them shooting people.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 00:05 |
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ActusRhesus posted:Additional context: New London is a shithole in a remote region of the state with high turnover for all its government jobs. Get hired. Get tenure. Get transferred.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 00:18 |
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Far eastern corner. lovely river and bridge placement. I-95. Resulting in long commute to anywhere you actually want to live.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 00:53 |
More Bay Area cop fuckery: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Richmond-to-pay-700K-to-police-informant-who-was-6196766.php quote:Richmond to pay $700K to police informant who was shot http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Pablo-cop-already-suspended-arrested-by-6196611.php quote:San Pablo cop, already suspended, arrested by S.F. police Just your friendly neighborhood cops exposing informants, dealing drugs (with their baby in the car), and killing unarmed suspects (for which they were cleared, of course). And doing other bad things that we can't be told about for some reason. Rent-A-Cop posted:Connecticut has a "remote region"? Whole state is the size of a postage stamp. New London is so remote!! It's only like 40 miles away from the largest metropolitan area in the USA/North America (the New York–Newark-Bridgeport combined statistical area, which ends with New Haven in CT, and has a population of over 23 million). Rah! fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 01:21 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:Account to whom? Because pretty much every department requires officers to report discharging their weapons ASAP. I can really easily see this "common-sense proposition" turning into another one of those unfunded mandatory reporting systems that no one ever reads. Edit: people do want this information, as evidenced by sites like killedbypolice.net. This reporting needs to be mandatory, no excuses. My Rhythmic Crotch fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Apr 14, 2015 |
# ? Apr 14, 2015 02:12 |
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Cichlid the Loach posted:"He made an error," [Sheriff Stanley] Glanz said. "How many errors are made in an operating room every week?" "Scalpel on the left, bonesaw on the right. Scalpel on the left, bonesaw on the right. Scalpel on the right, bonesaw on the ahh poo poo not again."
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 02:23 |
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My Rhythmic Crotch posted:You keep repeating this, but it's not getting any less tonedeaf. If a public servant is going to discharge their firearm at a civilian, that is a life-altering event, and that event plus all the conditions leading up to it ought to be public knowledge. You might think the reports are dumb and no one reads them, but that really says more about you than anyone else. His whole shtick has been; but nothing will change so why bother?
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 02:44 |
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My Rhythmic Crotch posted:Edit: people do want this information, as evidenced by sites like killedbypolice.net. This reporting needs to be mandatory, no excuses.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 02:52 |
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Agrajag posted:His whole shtick has been; but nothing will change so why bother? twodot posted:I'm in general pro-information, but I see some pretty obvious fifth amendment problems with mandatory reporting. How do we solve that? My Rhythmic Crotch fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Apr 14, 2015 |
# ? Apr 14, 2015 02:55 |
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twodot posted:Ok, your company is run by idiots then. How many jobs have you worked at? Most businesses are run by idiots. Most people are idiots. Systems have to be designed to account for this.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 03:08 |
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My Rhythmic Crotch posted:You keep repeating this, but it's not getting any less tonedeaf. If a public servant is going to discharge their firearm at a civilian, that is a life-altering event, and that event plus all the conditions leading up to it ought to be public knowledge. You might think the reports are dumb and no one reads them, but that really says more about you than anyone else. The Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics already tracks arrest related deaths and deaths in police custody. They, as far as I can tell, don't currently track non-fatal shootings. I know people don't read the reports, because people in this thread, who notionally are interested in the subject of police violence, thought there was no tracking of police killings and didn't know that the BJS reports existed until I linked to them. Agrajag posted:His whole shtick has been; but nothing will change so why bother? Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Apr 14, 2015 |
# ? Apr 14, 2015 03:14 |
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I never stopped advocating for non-retarded people to be employed in jobs that involve the carrying and using of lethal firearms. You may feel safe with a person that is barely average in intelligence to make judgement calls that involve life and death, but I do not. Your whole line of reasoning boils down to it won't change anything so why bother post after post after post. That and random throwing out of racial tensions with asians and black people and "minorities" not being as intelligent as whites.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 03:19 |
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# ? May 29, 2024 22:45 |
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Agrajag posted:I never stopped advocating for non-retarded people to be employed in jobs that involve the carrying and using of lethal firearms. You may feel safe with a person that is barely average in intelligence to make judgement calls that involve life and death, but I do not.
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# ? Apr 14, 2015 03:21 |