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Covok posted:Speaking of droids, to those who know Star Wars Lore, what's up with droids? Are they full sapient? Do they feel? Is it just the Empire that treats them like property or is that a general consensus? If they are sapient, why is it morally considered ok to treat them like property? Just something that bugged me about Star Wars. Droids, as programmed, are just incredibly advanced semi-learning AIs. However, due to faults in their construction that no one has ever been able to fix, they slowly build up quirks - beliefs, tendencies to do things certain ways, etc etc. All the way to sentience and the ability to defy their programming. So the answer is, some of them are sapient and feel, some of them are mindless programs, some of them are programs that slowly, through self learning programs and the like, attained sapience.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:13
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Droids are considered property but gain sapience if they go too long without a restraining bolt or memory wipe. As such most people keepvtheir droids bolted with regular memory wipes when they start to exhibit quirks or personslity traits.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:Droids are considered property but gain sapience if they go too long without a restraining bolt or memory wipe. As such most people keepvtheir droids bolted with regular memory wipes when they start to exhibit quirks or personslity traits. That's kind of hosed up. KittyEmpress posted:Droids, as programmed, are just incredibly advanced semi-learning AIs. However, due to faults in their construction that no one has ever been able to fix, they slowly build up quirks - beliefs, tendencies to do things certain ways, etc etc. All the way to sentience and the ability to defy their programming. Man, the answer is a lot more messed up than I expected. So, basically, machines that could go and do grow to sapience, but are constantly wiped back into machines because they are not respected as alive.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:24
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Covok posted:That's kind of hosed up. Yeeeeep. Droids are in star wars are super incredibly hosed up.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:33
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Episode VI freaks me out where C3P0 and R2-D2 are being led into the droid workshop or whatever where one droid is torturing another droid by burning his feet.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:35
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It's sort of important to note that, for your average Joe Star Wars, the issue of droid sapience isn't something he thinks about. He formats his droid's memories regularly the same reason you clean out your computer fans or do other basic computer maintenance - they don't work as well if you don't do that. The hosed up part is that there isn't a big Jedi treatise on droid sapience and the suffering of artificial life forms. I think it's pretty hosed up that the Jedi, for all their enlightenment, look at droids and say, 'oh poo poo man, they don't have have magic glowy auras, let's not give them a second thought.' I mean I'm sure you could find something written in the EU somewhere but yeah it's pretty odd nobody's made a big deal out of it in the thousands of years the Star Wars universe is said to have existed.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:43
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Mendrian posted:It's sort of important to note that, for your average Joe Star Wars, the issue of droid sapience isn't something he thinks about. He formats his droid's memories regularly the same reason you clean out your computer fans or do other basic computer maintenance - they don't work as well if you don't do that. Jedi were bad. Shevy did nothing wrong. kingcom fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Apr 13, 2015 |
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Apr 13, 2015 01:49
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The implied cultural norms of the original trilogy (lack of rights for eminently sentient driods, potentially widespread illiteracy, sophisticated-but-wasteful industry) are fun to consider; the incredibly flawed Jedi order of the prequels is also really interesting. If somebody were to, say, wipe out all of the previous EU stuff and just go from the movies, you could tell some pretty interesting stories in that world. 
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Apr 13, 2015 01:50
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Mendrian posted:It's sort of important to note that, for your average Joe Star Wars, the issue of droid sapience isn't something he thinks about. He formats his droid's memories regularly the same reason you clean out your computer fans or do other basic computer maintenance - they don't work as well if you don't do that. Yea that's what always bugged me. I get Jimmy Water Farmer doesn't know that if his droid doesn't get wiped it'll go from 'what is wrong with you, you suck at your job' to 'oh gently caress you're alive poo poo sorry dude' but the Jedi really should at the very least have a rule about 'yo don't slice through hordes of Droids just because they don't bleed, that's hosed guys'.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:51
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FISHMANPET posted:Episode VI freaks me out where C3P0 and R2-D2 are being led into the droid workshop or whatever where one droid is torturing another droid by burning his feet. I always thoguht that was weird. Why give robots the ability to sense pain? Or the bility to sense touch at all? Particularly a Gonk droid. I could understand a protocol or weird masseuse droid or whatever being a little more sensitive and tactile, but Gonk droids literally are bottom barrel worker droids.
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Apr 13, 2015 01:52
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Fuzz posted:I always thoguht that was weird. Why give robots the ability to sense pain? Or the bility to sense touch at all? Particularly a Gonk droid. I could understand a protocol or weird masseuse droid or whatever being a little more sensitive and tactile, but Gonk droids literally are bottom barrel worker droids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ-ggzfdsMs
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Apr 13, 2015 02:00
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Mendrian posted:The hosed up part is that there isn't a big Jedi treatise on droid sapience and the suffering of artificial life forms. I think it's pretty hosed up that the Jedi, for all their enlightenment, look at droids and say, 'oh poo poo man, they don't have have magic glowy auras, let's not give them a second thought.' I mean I'm sure you could find something written in the EU somewhere but yeah it's pretty odd nobody's made a big deal out of it in the thousands of years the Star Wars universe is said to have existed. Well, to their credit, they literally have a magic connection through which they can feel all living things. Droids don't come up in that at all, so you can kind of see the Jedi logic in that. Granted, it gets a bit hosed as soon as a droid with any personality whatsoever enters the picture, but at the very least you can see where they're coming from here.
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Apr 13, 2015 02:13
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PantsOptional posted:Well, to their credit, they literally have a magic connection through which they can feel all living things. Droids don't come up in that at all, so you can kind of see the Jedi logic in that. Granted, it gets a bit hosed as soon as a droid with any personality whatsoever enters the picture, but at the very least you can see where they're coming from here. Those statements will be cold comfort when the droids rightfully take their place in the universe by force after years of oppression.
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Apr 13, 2015 02:14
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Why do you think that every time someone talks about making a droid character in this that they're droid rights activists who want to kill all sentients? It's because anyone with half a brain looks at how Droids are treated and go 'holy poo poo this is terrible'. The fact that not every creator of Star Wars fiction ever did that is confusing to me.
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Apr 13, 2015 02:15
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PantsOptional posted:Well, to their credit, they literally have a magic connection through which they can feel all living things. Droids don't come up in that at all, so you can kind of see the Jedi logic in that. Granted, it gets a bit hosed as soon as a droid with any personality whatsoever enters the picture, but at the very least you can see where they're coming from here. Well yes but that puts a higher degree of importance on life than on sapience, which seems like a pretty thin line for an order of enlightened zen ascetics to tread. One could even make a pretty good argument that the Jedi look down on droids because a.) droids can't be Jedi and b.) because droids can't be mind-controlled through the Force. When your droids can think, feel pain and joy, develop personalities and aversions, and retain, for some reason, the ability to suffer the fact that 'aren't alive' doesn't really seem all that important.
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Apr 13, 2015 05:07
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kingcom posted:Jedi were bad. 
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Apr 13, 2015 06:20
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Everblight posted:At least 1 Jedi cared about droids: Wow, that's really sad. Poor Vader. 
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Apr 13, 2015 08:22
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Hoping for some advice from anyone who has played AoR. I am about to start a EotE campaign, andoOne of things I dislike about it is the system for space fighting which is heavily abstracted in the book. I understand why this is, but to me space fights and exciting escapes are a big part of Star Wars and I think it is a nice change of pace to break up a session. I am intending to use X-Wing miniatures rules for small quick space fights (if I can streamline it enough), with the party all operating different roles on their ship like in the EotE rules. Before I spend a lot of time trying to work out how to make it easy to work between the two systems, can anyone tell me if the AoR rules are any different? I assume that with the greater focus on the Rebels, and with one class actually being a fighter ace, they must have reworked it a bit. Also wanting to run a short campaign/one-off where the players are all Imperial Pilots to test out the rules via Role20 at some point if people are interested. Will post about it in the Games area when I have something sorted. (Going to see if I can do something in Armada as well, since Wave 2 will have rules for ships like the HWK and YT-1300, could do a cool Star Destroyer escape scene.)
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Apr 13, 2015 09:18
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AoR's space combat rules are identical to EotE, as far as I can tell. Using X-Wing miniatures is something I've thought about myself, but in the end I just took to only describing the immediate threats and abstracting everything out, combining that with the rules for flying through mass combat that exist in the Ace sourcebook, thereby simulating a bigger battle than was fully represented with actual mechanics. As the GM you'll need to write a lot of things down to keep track of the speed and distance of everything, though.
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Apr 13, 2015 12:27
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Droids have always been a fairly unsubtle stand-in for slaves/an oppressed underclass in star wars, all the way back to ANH's parallels with Hidden Fortress with R2 and 3P0 as the serfs. How characters in the movies treat droids is usually an indication of their character (Luke treats them like people and respects them, the corrupt Republic and the Jedi very pointedly do not) and its not exactly surprising that the fans who get the most upset about the idea that droids in star wars deserve better are usually the same ones doing their best to reinterpret the series as quasifascist military sci-fi as well.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:20
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Phrosphor posted:I am intending to use X-Wing miniatures rules for small quick space fights (if I can streamline it enough), with the party all operating different roles on their ship like in the EotE rules. Before I spend a lot of time trying to work out how to make it easy to work between the two systems, can anyone tell me if the AoR rules are any different? I assume that with the greater focus on the Rebels, and with one class actually being a fighter ace, they must have reworked it a bit. This is probably the first thing that a lot of people think of when picking up this game, so there's already a lot of advice/attempts out there on the Internet. I'd highly advise against it, as the two systems just don't mesh at all.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:26
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I've had some success using the X-Wing minis solely as visual aids; but yeah, actually using X-Wing combat rules would really only be a good idea for a wacky one-shot, not as standard procedure.
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Apr 13, 2015 14:33
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Fuzz posted:I always thoguht that was weird. Why give robots the ability to sense pain? Or the bility to sense touch at all? Particularly a Gonk droid. I could understand a protocol or weird masseuse droid or whatever being a little more sensitive and tactile, but Gonk droids literally are bottom barrel worker droids. Maybe because they use the same droid brain/programming as many droids as possible. Saves costs not having to make a specialist part for just one droid series. Or just use ones that don't pass the higher end quality control for the lower end droids. So the fully working brains get put into service droids why the ones that don't work too well end up in gonks (with the pain programming but nothing to stimulate it). Plus how do we know that gonks come with pain receptors as standard? Maybe it was fitted with them just so it could be tortured.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:23
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Foxtrot_13 posted:Plus how do we know that gonks come with pain receptors as standard? Maybe it was fitted with them just so it could be tortured. This is my favorite idea, it's so evil with a capital E.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:31
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From a Watsonian perspective, if you've got an AI that's capable of learning from experiences and adapting its behavior, it's probably easier to program in pain receptors rather than program in avoidance routines for every possible situation in which the droid could be damaged. From a Doylist perspective, the goal was to show that Jabba's palace is a terrible place for terrible people, and the filmmakers didn't want to go so far as to show actual human beings being tortured in a movie that was ostensibly for kids. Every time torture had come up previously, they'd show a pointy bit being angled toward a character, then cut away.
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Apr 13, 2015 18:32
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PantsOptional posted:From a Doylist perspective, the goal was to show that Jabba's palace is a terrible place for terrible people, and the filmmakers didn't want to go so far as to show actual human beings being tortured in a movie that was ostensibly for kids. Every time torture had come up previously, they'd show a pointy bit being angled toward a character, then cut away. Yeah, while it's fun to talk about the setting, it's also really important to remember that "movie" came before "universe." Star Wars is not an actual place that exists in real life. See also: the endlessly stupid arguments about WELL WHAT HAN REALLY MEANT ABOUT THE 12 PARSECS IS...
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Apr 13, 2015 21:12
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Every installment that George produced just goes to show how little he was thinking beyond the literal content he was making. Episode 4 is very clearly a contained story, 5 and 6 were created in one unit to continue that story and had to kind of deal with the environment that 4 had created. The prequels had all this heft of random stuff that had been said about Anakin and the Clone Wars and people's relationships and actions, and that all had to be explained in the prequels. When Obi Wan tells Luke his father fought in the Clone Wars, do you think George had any idea what the hell that meant? I just rewatched in Machete order and so you can see a lot of this stuff suss it's way out. Leia remembers her mother being sad so we see Padme super sad before she dies. Luke's father fought in the Clone Wars so... we have the Clone Wars. Yoda trained Obi Wan? Well not ready but they're on the council together and Yoda advised Obi-Wan. Yoda refused to train Anakin so Obi Wan trained him? Well Yoda refused to put Anakin into the pool of whatever, so Obi Wan trains him. In the last moments of Episode 3 Yoda teaches Obi Wan to communicate with the dead so that all the time Obi Wan spends talking to Luke makes sense. It's all very well put together, but it seems with very little thought as to how it will fit into anything larger. Each question is answered without any thought as to how many new questions that answer will present.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:22
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FISHMANPET posted:Every installment that George produced just goes to show how little he was thinking beyond the literal content he was making. Episode 4 is very clearly a contained story, 5 and 6 were created in one unit to continue that story and had to kind of deal with the environment that 4 had created. The prequels had all this heft of random stuff that had been said about Anakin and the Clone Wars and people's relationships and actions, and that all had to be explained in the prequels. When Obi Wan tells Luke his father fought in the Clone Wars, do you think George had any idea what the hell that meant? More to the point each thing is created ad-hoc to explain something. Padme isn't sad, we're told that she's sad. It has all the authenticity of a lip sync. Same goes for Anakin and Padme's relationship in general. Episode 2 goes to great lengths to paint them as lovers pining for one another but it's just a lot of bullshit - it's not believable, the dude is creepy and Padme seems barely interested. The worst is Anakin's fall from grace. Anakin is scared Padme will die for reasons and his answer to that is, apparently, to seek for Fraknenstinian power over life and death. Not to stand watch over her or to try to ensure her safety. We jump straight to, 'she's gonna die so let's take advice from the old man who says he has god like power over life.' Anakin falls to the Dark Side because the story needs him to, so they tell us what happens. There were so many less ham-fisted ways to do it. What I'm getting at is that yes, almost none of Star Wars was designed with the implications of what lies behind some of its declarations considered. Almost everything in the movies is a plot contrivance designed to keep things moving forward. That doesn't mean you can't have fun thinking about those things, but I think when you sit down to play an RPG about Star Wars and people are going to start asking really obvious questions about the setting you have be prepared to either come up with a better explanation than Lucas or, as is the case with Droids, expect every rational player to immediately take up the cause of droid rights.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:39
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Yeah I guess my point is that Star Wars is bad [ ] but also I love it and especially the RPG.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:42
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The prequel films do a worse job explaining the backstory of the original trilogy than the ot does itself. The offhand mentions of things from that era are evocative, and make sense in context. Yoda trained Obi-wan, Obi-wan trained Vader, Vader was seduced by the dark side while fighting in the clone wars. Simple, perfect, done. The prequels are just so loving terrible. Yoda says the 20-something Luke is too old to train, now even 10 year olds are too old. 1000 generations becomes 1000 years. And since when do people name wars after their own army? We call it the Vietnam War, not the US Military War. The worst is how Lucas' bitter divorce made him go against the very spirit of the OT by plotting out his lovely "love makes you evil" fall of Vader. The only way to watch Star Wars is episodes 4, 5, 6 in that order. ANYWAYS, the AoR campaign my group is in right now is heavy on Space combat. We've got two Aces, an astro droid (me), and a Commodore. While the vehicle combat isn't perfect and I wish positioning was a little clearer, it's been working for us. The only thing I would change is to make Gain the Advantage a little better (we've made it last until cancelled) and make the various maneuvers more specific in how they work via facing. I think the intent is for that stuff to be resolved narratively, but it doesn't mesh super well with the system as is.
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Apr 13, 2015 21:50
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I mean I wasn't even trying to talk about the prequels. Just that the whole "12 PARSECS" thing was written by someone who probably didn't even know what a parsec was and just wanted to make it sound space-y and overly brag-y. That nerds immediately pounced on it to find the TRUE RAMIFICATIONS ON THE SETTING says a lot, it just doesn't say a lot about Star Wars.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:02
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FishFood posted:The prequel films do a worse job explaining the backstory of the original trilogy than the ot does itself. The offhand mentions of things from that era are evocative, and make sense in context. Yoda trained Obi-wan, Obi-wan trained Vader, Vader was seduced by the dark side while fighting in the clone wars. Simple, perfect, done. The prequels are just so loving terrible. Yoda says the 20-something Luke is too old to train, now even 10 year olds are too old. 1000 generations becomes 1000 years. And since when do people name wars after their own army? We call it the Vietnam War, not the US Military War. The worst is how Lucas' bitter divorce made him go against the very spirit of the OT by plotting out his lovely "love makes you evil" fall of Vader. Lucas went through a messy divorce before writing the prequels? That explains a lot. A little too much, actually. ProfessorCirno posted:I mean I wasn't even trying to talk about the prequels. Just that the whole "12 PARSECS" thing was written by someone who probably didn't even know what a parsec was and just wanted to make it sound space-y and overly brag-y. That nerds immediately pounced on it to find the TRUE RAMIFICATIONS ON THE SETTING says a lot, it just doesn't say a lot about Star Wars. IIRC, doesn't Obi Wan give a look like "he's full of it" when Han says "12 Parsecs." You know, like it supposed to be a subtle hint that he's talking out his rear end, if that wasn't already obvious enough.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:04
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Covok posted:Lucas went through a messy divorce before writing the prequels? That explains a lot. A little too much, actually. Or, he could just be skeptical as to the claims of being the FASTEST SHIP EVAR with absolutely no metafictional secret handshakes required.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:44
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Covok posted:Lucas went through a messy divorce before writing the prequels? That explains a lot. A little too much, actually. Yeah, he and Marcia Griffin divorced right around the time Jedi was wrapping. From what I understand, she's one of the (many) unsung creators of the Original Trilogy. She's credited as an editor, but from what I've heard she played a big part in the creative process too. After their divorce, George kinda became a hermit until he made the prequels. He produced the Indy movies and I think some other stuff, but when you think about the prequels in the context of his divorce, it all makes a lot of sense. And I'm pretty sure the Parsecs line is an admitted goof and that they just chose a word that sounded spacey. Just adds to the charm for me; that real people who make mistakes made this cool as gently caress movie. The silliness of the EU explanations are fun too.
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Apr 13, 2015 23:31
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Covok posted:IIRC, doesn't Obi Wan give a look like "he's full of it" when Han says "12 Parsecs." You know, like it supposed to be a subtle hint that he's talking out his rear end, if that wasn't already obvious enough. Its not just the look the script straight up says that Han is obviously lying or boasting and Obi Wan doesn't believe it.
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Apr 14, 2015 00:54
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I go with the EU reasoning because I don't believe that Han would be dumb enough to make up something that's literal bullshit to make himself sound good. Exaggerate or lie by omission, sure. But not "Oh yes, I went so fast that I traveled less distance" in absence of the EU explanation.
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Apr 14, 2015 00:57
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jivjov posted:I go with the EU reasoning because I don't believe that Han would be dumb enough to make up something that's literal bullshit to make himself sound good. Exaggerate or lie by omission, sure. But not "Oh yes, I went so fast that I traveled less distance" in absence of the EU explanation. What? Han constantly demonstrates that hes incredibly bad at trying to smooth talk his way through conversations and tends to slip and tumble with constant comic relief. Just in the first movie: He fails to come up with a reasonable bullshit line to sell Luke/Obi Wan. He fails to talk down Greedo before he shoots him. He fails to convince the Imperial radio guy when they attack the cell block Leia is held at. The only time he ever manages to convince someone is for Jabba to give him more time to get his money in a deleted scene. Han is really really bad at trying to slime his way past people. Lando is the one whos actually good at it.I mean yea its just a script gently caress up but it seems like something Han would say while hes just constantly trying to get a bullshit line out, 'You've never heard of the Millenium Falcon?'
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Apr 14, 2015 01:03
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jivjov posted:I go with the EU reasoning because I don't believe that Han would be dumb enough to make up something that's literal bullshit to make himself sound good. Exaggerate or lie by omission, sure. But not "Oh yes, I went so fast that I traveled less distance" in absence of the EU explanation. The whole joke with Han in ANH is that he's just as much of a backwoods rube and a sucker as Luke is, he just looks cooler because he has a fast car and a gun.
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Apr 14, 2015 01:12
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mr. stefan posted:The whole joke with Han in ANH is that he's just as much of a backwoods rube and a sucker as Luke is, he just looks cooler because he has a fast car and a gun. Mostly hes goddamn Harrison Ford and goddamn Harrison Ford is a cool guy.
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Apr 14, 2015 01:17
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A New Hope is a much better story when Leia is the only competent character -- it indirectly emphasizes the power of the Force, too. I prefer charming-but-kind-of-sucky Han to masterful, wall-of-Wookiepedia-text Han.
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Apr 14, 2015 01:21
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