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Goodbye with the military, then.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:22
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Dead Reckoning posted:Oh OK, so how do you plan to deal with the fact that your proposal will further exclude minority candidates from police work? See? You keep throwing that out there like minorities are some massive monolithic pillar of stupid.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:22
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Agrajag posted:See? You keep throwing that out there like minorities are some massive monolithic pillar of stupid. EDIT: For those of you following along, this is what I mean when I say that thinking about the practical implementation of your ideas matters. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 03:30
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Agrajag posted:See? You keep throwing that out there like minorities are some massive monolithic pillar of stupid. Please articulate why you believe the standard entrance exams for police applicants should be more academically challenging.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:31
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I'm not sure there's anything about knowing how to de-escalate situations or an appropriate knowledge of conflict resolution techniques that requires a high IQ or a high level of academic achievement.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:42
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Dead Reckoning posted:I keep repeating it because I'm asking people to think for five minutes past their gut instincts and maybe possibly consider the real-world implementation questions at even the most basic level. Seriously, who is the information being reported to? A state agency, a federal one? What information is being reported? Will it be made public? How soon must it be reported? Will it be purely factual, or include the results of the inquiry? Since you mentioned an officer "discharg[ing] their firearm", will people who die during arrest due to non-firearm causes be excluded from the data set? How much of this information already exists as public records, but simply isn't indexed and aggregated? Who will pay for the training, technology, and man-hours required to make it work? And, the $64,000 question: what useful information or new conclusions do you think can be extracted from this data that we don't already have? The who's, what's, how's, why's, and when's that you're asking about can basically be the same as what is already collected, though it would be great if they could make their site easier to navigate. That would also help get the data in front of more people that want to read it. I only found that pdf by googling for "NCJ 235385". Anyway, the answer to the $64,000 question is that we need a complete dataset so we can actually analyze the effectiveness of any measures (like bodycams or whatever) put into place. Edit: these BJS reports also don't include anything about the FBI. The FBI does publish some data, but again it's laughably bad because it includes no detail and it's also optional. My Rhythmic Crotch fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 03:48
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First of all if your education system depends entirely on your ethnicity/skin colour then clearly that needs to be changed. However, that has no bearing on the fact that allowing any person that just happens to carry a badge, considering the low as gently caress bar to become a cop in America, to have the capacity to decide life or death of a person, is retarded. So, either arm those that are properly trained and evaluated to have the capacity to not mistake their gun for a taser/shoot everything like it's the wild west or make the selection process to be more rigorous in order to be a cop. But hey if you enjoy constantly falling back on but "minorities are not as smart"and "won't change anything" then keep it up.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:49
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Agrajag posted:First of all if your education system depends entirely on your ethnicity/skin colour then clearly that needs to be changed. However, that has no bearing on the fact that allowing any person that just happens to carry a badge, considering the low as gently caress bar to become a cop in America, to have the capacity to decide life or death of a person, is retarded. So, either arm those that are properly trained and evaluated to have the capacity to not mistake their gun for a taser/shoot everything like it's the wild west or make the selection process to be more rigorous in order to be a cop. He's not saying that minorities are not as smart. Minority groups have consistently opposed the use of standardized testing in order to get police and fire (and other) jobs, and rightly so, as these tests have little to do with the duties of the job. They don't test for your capacity to keep your temper, for example.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:57
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Agrajag posted:But hey if you enjoy constantly falling back on but "minorities are not as smart"and "won't change anything" then keep it up. So far all you've done is shout into the wind.
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Apr 14, 2015 03:57
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Oh man that old rear end cop was pay to play. I've heard about that from people that transferred to us from out of state, but I didn't know they let them do poo poo besides direct traffic. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/deputy-who-killed-man-after-mistaking-gun-for-taser-is-an-insurance-exec-who-pays-to-play-cop/
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Apr 14, 2015 05:19
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Gather data on police shootings? Have you ever stop to consider what we would actually do if we knew how many people the police shot? Ha ha Ha, I bet you have not! Furthermore, have you considered that if we want cops to be smart, there will be no black or Mexican cops? Look at you failing to consider the implications of what you advocate for! Did I mention that I'm super worth engaging with?
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Apr 14, 2015 05:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure there's anything about knowing how to de-escalate situations or an appropriate knowledge of conflict resolution techniques that requires a high IQ or a high level of academic achievement. Too many current cops seem to delight in the fact that gunning someone down gets them a paid vacation and an adrenaline high. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/listen-to-officer-michael-slager-laugh-about-the-adrenaline-rush-from-shooting-walter-scott/ quote:A voice, reportedly Slager’s, asks, “What happens next?” Rent-A-Cop posted:Please articulate why you believe the standard entrance exams for police applicants should be more academically challenging. Crafting-wholesale a fantasy scenario: A new professional position of Psychologist-Interviewer could take the role of Guadian of the Path of the Gun and answer to a Citizens Commission that would oversee hiring. This would remove the Brothers in Blue test, as well as "well your cousin is in the gang so you can be too!". The idiot you are defending is shrieking about SATs because thats all he has to derail the idea that there might be a problem with the hiring practices. Dead Reckoning posted:You're a lovely poster and the foremost example of someone who pinballs from criticism to shrill criticism without actually examining any of them. I see you've stopped defending your call for more rigorous civil service exams without comment, now that it's been pointed out how dumb it is. SedanChair posted:Gather data on police shootings? Have you ever stop to consider what we would actually do if we knew how many people the police shot? Ha ha Ha, I bet you have not!
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Apr 14, 2015 06:23
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Everyone laughs nervously after a traumatizibg experience. It's not a huge red flag like the article kinda assumes.
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Apr 14, 2015 06:34
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FRINGE posted:It is not impossible to design some kind of special-cases (in this case pertaining to stress, policing, and dealing with the public while under stress, etc..) critical thinking/response test to deal with the issue. This would have some relation to "IQ" but not highschool tests that Dead Reckoning is going to commit forums suicide over. FRINGE posted:The idiot you are defending is shrieking about SATs because thats all he has to derail the idea that there might be a problem with the hiring practices. FRINGE posted:You havent changed anyones mind about anything. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 06:41
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Vahakyla posted:Everyone laughs nervously after a traumatizibg experience. It's not a huge red flag like the article kinda assumes. The person reassuring the killer is part of the problem. quote:The senior officer again reassured Slager that he would not have to explain the shooting on the record immediately. “The last one we had, they waited a couple of days to interview officially, like, sit down and tell what happened,” he said. The fact that Slager seems like he may have a history of problems using force suggests that it is part of his character (in some, or a variety of ways), while also suggesting that his seniors do not mind his behavior. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/09/south-carolina-officer-who-shot-black-man-was-subject-prior-excessive-force/ http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/michael-slager-man-filed-previous-conduct-complaint-article-1.2178669 quote:Moments later, she saw the police officers drag Givens out of the house and throw him in the dirt. Brown said she kept yelling to the officers they had the wrong man, but they wouldn't listen. Though Givens was offering no resistance, she said she saw Slager use the stun gun on him again. quote:In that case, Slager allegedly entered Givens' home and used a Taser against him multiple times, though he, too, was unarmed — and not the person police were trying to question, according to the AP's exclusive report. quote:Givens shook his head Wednesday when asked about his reaction to learning Slager had been charged with murder. Slager is being held in jail without bond.
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Apr 14, 2015 06:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Why would you make your special case test the entry gate to training? The training is supposed to teach appropriate thinking and responses. That is literally the singular purpose of training. You dont bring in a sociopath and then assert: "Well after we lecture them for a few days they will be right as rain!"
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Apr 14, 2015 06:53
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FRINGE posted:You want people that can absorb and use the (theoretical) training to begin with. When you find them you train those individuals. This entire argument is beyond ridiculous. Does anyone in this thread believe that the commonly used entrance exams are even in the top one thousand problems with American law enforcement?
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Apr 14, 2015 06:57
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Which is why you give them a basic aptitude battery to determine whether they have the academic chops to understand your training. This iis why tests like POST and ASVAB exist. They work reliably to weed out candidates who can't absorb training. They do seem to be an issue though. You cant have results this consistently bad across the nation in unrelated departments without it seeming likely that there is a problem with the selection process - in addition to the many other problems. It is related to the problem where a "bad apple" *cough* is found, and then the rotten barrel rallies to protect it. There is a screening problem before, and a screening problem during.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:07
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FRINGE posted:They do seem to be an issue though. You cant have results this consistently bad across the nation in unrelated departments without it seeming likely that there is a problem with the selection process - in addition to the many other problems.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:16
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Edit : Posting works better if you refresh the page.
Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 07:20
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Oh you'll get no argument from me that the selection process is commonly rear end backwards. Even discounting good-ol-boyism and straight racism. I just can't grasp how making the entrance exam more academically challenging is supposed to address that issue. Do you and the other posters in this thread complaining about the POST being too easy have some data that shows a correlation between academic achievement and police brutality? Does knowledge of calculus correlate with a decreased rate of police abuse? If applicants were quizzed on Homer and Virgil would cops stop murdering people so much?
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Apr 14, 2015 07:24
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Liquid Communism posted:Actually, the FBI tracks this information through the unified crime reports... which police departments aren't required to report police shootings to. Good luck getting 10,000+ different police departments to report something that could be used against them. Not that I don't support the idea, but there's no legal basis to compel reporting and no political will to fund it so long as it's only poor folks getting murdered. FRINGE posted:I havent called for a use of SATs. I dont know if anyone did or if that is just something that was invented as a convenience. I gave one fantasy outline of a direction to go not far above this. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 07:27
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Good luck getting 10,000+ different police departments to report something that could be used against them. Not that I don't support the idea, but there's no legal basis to compel reporting and no political will to fund it so long as it's only poor folks getting murdered. I'm open to any and all reform proposals, except for ones that cops won't like or anything effective at all really, those are off the table.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:46
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Vahakyla posted:Everyone laughs nervously after a traumatizibg experience. It's not a huge red flag like the article kinda assumes. This. Also, fwiw, I used to train military special forces types on how to give proper shooter statements. A big part of it was calm the gently caress down. Wait for the adrenaline to leave your system. Gather your thoughts. Record everything. Nothing about that is coaching someone to lie. It was making sure we got complete statements the first go round. Having an adrenaline dump as a physiological reaction to a high stress event does not necessarily mean someone is a thrill seeker who gets off on it. As for testing, I'm not sure how pointing out that poors from underperforming schools (which includes a disproportionate number of minorities) statistically do poorly on standardized testing makes one a racist. No one has suggested that it's because minorities are dumber. But you can't ignore the data. If it's not true that there is a performance gap, why do we care about school reform? That said, giving pay to play cops a gun is loving stupid.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:53
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Vahakyla posted:Goodbye with the military, then. Incorrect. The military as a whole has higher test scores and possesses a higher average education level that the population writ large. Even if you exclude the officers corps where a bachelors degree is a minimum requirement for line, advanced degrees are required for most staff, and graduate coursework is needed for promotion, there is a 20% high school drop out rate in this country which is a disqualifier (unless you have a GED and some college) and of those who graduate high school, many can't pass the ASVAB. I'm not saying everyone in the military is a genius. But our general population is pretty loving stupid.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:07
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IMO doing a bit of paperwork after you literally kill someone isn't to much to ask but apparently some people disagree.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:57
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FRINGE posted:Conflict resolution requires some degree of "psychological mindedness" ("Can reflect on (i.e. observe and experience at the same time) a full range of own and others' feelings or experiences (including subtle variations in feelings). Can reflect both in the present and with reference to a longer-term view of self, values, and goals. Can reflect on multiple relationships between feelings and experiences, across the full range of age-expected experiences in the context of new challenges.") that the murderers this thread is discussing dont seem to have (or employ). As well as a concern for, you know, ethics, repercussions, children who now lost a parent, and other things. Right, but that kind of "mindedness" can be taught and isn't necessarily dependent on a high IQ, test scores, or academic performance.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:06
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Dead Reckoning posted:But part of the impunity for police officers has to do with juries favoring law enforcement over minority defendants. The no-bills in the cases of Eric Garner and the SWAT team that burned a toddler is a problem with society that you can't fix by changing policies and procedures. Interesting that you should use the Eric Garner no-bill as an example of something that's a society problem that can't be addressed with policy/procedure because I think it is exactly the opposite of what you say. It's very likely that Garner's death was no-billed precisely because the DA and Grand Jury procedure serves as a gatekeeper and barrier to the policemen being indicted. Since the DA's in these cases often have a working relationship with the police involved, there is a systemic conflict of interest in their vigorously pursuing justice for a police victim like Garner in that it might hamper their working relationship with the police there. It's precisely this sort of thing that policies and procedures can help address even if class, race and other societal issues may still provide an impediment to justice being served. For instance, if there was an indictment and it went to trial, it could happen that the cop's defense attorney was able to finagle an all white Staten Island jury and get an improbable acquittal due to racial attitudes. But at least there wouldn't be the systemic barrier of a conflicted DA tanking the case before a grand jury and preventing a trial in the first place. If you don't take baby steps you can't take the bigger ones. I haven't read up on the South Carolina SLED, but it sounds like something independent of the local jurisdiction PDs and maybe that's why there's some actual action on some cases there?
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Apr 14, 2015 16:28
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ActusRhesus posted:As for testing, I'm not sure how pointing out that poors from underperforming schools (which includes a disproportionate number of minorities) statistically do poorly on standardized testing makes one a racist. No one has suggested that it's because minorities are dumber. But you can't ignore the data. If it's not true that there is a performance gap, why do we care about school reform Nobody is saying the gap isn't real, but that's so easy to address in hiring that we don't understand why it would be an excuse to throw up your hands at the suggestion of getting smarter cops.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:07
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SedanChair posted:Nobody is saying the gap isn't real, but that's so easy to address in hiring that we don't understand why it would be an excuse to throw up your hands at the suggestion of getting smarter cops. How do you assess "smarter" if not through entrance exams? I agree standardized tests are not always an accurate predictor of intelligence, but when you say they should hire "smarter" how will that decision be made in a way that stands up to the objectivity requirements of public employment?
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Apr 14, 2015 17:17
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ActusRhesus posted:How do you assess "smarter" if not through entrance exams? I agree standardized tests are not always an accurate predictor of intelligence, but when you say they should hire "smarter" how will that decision be made in a way that stands up to the objectivity requirements of public employment? Racial hiring quotas *sinister music plays*
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Apr 14, 2015 17:19
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SedanChair posted:Nobody is saying the gap isn't real, but that's so easy to address in hiring that we don't understand why it would be an excuse to throw up your hands at the suggestion of getting smarter cops. Why the hell would you think this would be easy to address in hiring? And why would that be different from every other context of gating something with a standardized test that people complain about having disparate impact on minorities?
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Apr 14, 2015 17:21
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ActusRhesus posted:This. Also, fwiw, I used to train military special forces types on how to give proper shooter statements. A big part of it was calm the gently caress down. Wait for the adrenaline to leave your system. Gather your thoughts. Record everything. Nothing about that is coaching someone to lie. It was making sure we got complete statements the first go round. Having an adrenaline dump as a physiological reaction to a high stress event does not necessarily mean someone is a thrill seeker who gets off on it. The issue isn't coaching an officer to lie. It's giving him time to get his facts in line with the investigation. How long would you wait before questioning a civilian shooter? Do you tell him to head home and relax for a couple days while you let his buddies write out their statements first? The entire process is transparently designed to ensure the officer has the best possible chance of not facing repercussions.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:23
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SedanChair posted:Racial hiring quotas *sinister music plays* B-b-but that would be... reverse racism! The worst kind of racism!
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Apr 14, 2015 17:47
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DARPA posted:The issue isn't coaching an officer to lie. It's giving him time to get his facts in line with the investigation. How long would you wait before questioning a civilian shooter? Do you tell him to head home and relax for a couple days while you let his buddies write out their statements first? The entire process is transparently designed to ensure the officer has the best possible chance of not facing repercussions. Now a police officer is unlikely to tell a non-cop shooter to take a few days to compose themselves (although technically I guess they'd have to/should mirandize the shooter), but I don't know if that means the process is designed to give extra protection to police shooters.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:49
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Lemming posted:B-b-but that would be... reverse racism! The worst kind of racism! The only kind of racism.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:50
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Yeah the difference is that police officers want shooters to give them an inconsistent story before they've had time to calm down. Unless it's a cop.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:52
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ActusRhesus posted:Incorrect. The military as a whole has higher test scores and possesses a higher average education level that the population writ large. Even if you exclude the officers corps where a bachelors degree is a minimum requirement for line, advanced degrees are required for most staff, and graduate coursework is needed for promotion, there is a 20% high school drop out rate in this country which is a disqualifier (unless you have a GED and some college) and of those who graduate high school, many can't pass the ASVAB. I'm not saying everyone in the military is a genius. But our general population is pretty loving stupid. A major component of the problem is that significant chunks of our population are willfully, deliberately stupid. Among conservatives being as uneducated as possible is seen as a good thing because that makes you a salt of the earth good old boy with common sense unlike those ivory tower nerds with their fancy titles, arrogant attitudes, and loving literacy. Just because somebody has studied a subject for ten years doesn't mean they understand it. Me, I know how the world works so let me tell you how global warming is a hoax...
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Apr 14, 2015 18:22
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I'm not so sure stupidity and ignorance are limited to any one political ideology.
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Apr 14, 2015 18:35
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ActusRhesus posted:How do you assess "smarter" if not through entrance exams? I agree standardized tests are not always an accurate predictor of intelligence, but when you say they should hire "smarter" how will that decision be made in a way that stands up to the objectivity requirements of public employment? I think most people in here don't actually know what they want. They don't actually want "smarter" cops per se, but cops that are better able to handle stressful situations and deescalate instead of continuing to escalate. This is a cultural and training problem, and probably requires significantly more training than US police departments can afford.
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Apr 14, 2015 19:26
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