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Ferrinus posted:Good ole Demon. I believe that the reason this happened was that, among other things, Stamina + Survival was the general "how much raw elemental power can you channel" dicepool, so it was what you rolled to summon fire or water or wind or- Yeah, something like that. Lore of Flame and of the Winds are both 4/5 stamina and 5/5 survival. Earth is 4/5 survival again, but with strength, then Paths and Wild are both all survival. It seems like there was some attempt to diversify the skills involved, but I don't know if it was just "let's try to make these not all roll the same thing" or if there was any careful number-shuffling involved. I'd guess the former. Between the low number of lore dots each character gets and the greatly variable power of one lore compared to another, having a big chunk of them rely on survival is only a relatively minor sin.
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Apr 15, 2015 13:53
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So they just posted this. I guess "families" are like Vampire clans or Werewolf tribes, but if they are meant to evoke specific themes, I think they're very vague (at least from how they're described in the blog post). Also I wouldn't say that one out of five of the primordial fears of mankind is the sky, but what do I know. I haven't checked the leak, could anyone who has let us know if families are better described and somewhat more specific in the corebook?
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Apr 15, 2015 16:00
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quote:Beasts are fundamentally a part of the World of Darkness. They seek out the unseen, the strange and arcane, not because they wish to solve the mysteries (which would be rude), but because they feel that they should be involved. If the extended family is up to something out in the dark, well, maybe one of the Children can be of some assistance? Or, at least, can share in the bounty? Guys, where are you going? I swear we're important, too! Hey, stop kidding around, let me in the clubhouse, come on, you said it was cool this time-
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Apr 15, 2015 16:15
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Families are exceptionally broad. Anakim/Giants represent fears of helplessness, particularly before authority or strength. Their lairs tend to be Echoing, Jagged, have Sealed Exits, Toxic or Unstable. They are associated with the Atavisms Cyclopean Strength, Looming Presence, Mimir's Wisdom and Titanic Blow. Once per scene, they can automatically smash through a physical obstacle in their way in a single turn, though if it's magical in some way it takes a point of Satiety. Eshmaki/Lurkers represent fears of destruction, and they tend to be sneaky and hidden until the moment when they strike. Their lairs tend to be Cramped, have Darkness, Extreme Cold, Mirages or Stench. They are associated with the Atavisms Dragonfire, From the Shadows, Limb From Limb and Relentless Hunter. When they successfully execute a melee attack on someone unsuspecting, they can automatically inflict a Tilt like Arm Wrack or Leg Wrack, or choose to do damage and initiate a grapple at once. Makara/Leviathans represent fears of the depths, water, drowning and so on. Their lairs tend to have Crushing Pressure, Currents, Downpour, Flooded or Undergrowth. They are associated with the Atavisms Alien Allure, Embrace of the Deep, Heart of the Ocean and Siren's Treacherous Song. They can breathe underwater and are immune to any ill effects from water pressure or changes in water pressure. Namtaru/Gorgons represent fears of revulsion, disgust and isolation. Their lairs tend to be Echoing, Gluey, full of Noxious Gases, Poor Light or Swarms. They are associated with the Atavisms Basilisk's Touch, Infestation, Shadowed Soul and Unbreakable. Once per scene, they can automatically inflict the Shaken or Guilty conditions or another, similar one on someone. Ugallu/Raptors represent fears of exposure, sky and terror from above. Their lairs tend to have Crosswinds, Exposed, Fog, Thin Air or Thunderous. They are associated with the Atavisms Feral Cry, Needs Must, No Escape and Storm-Lashed. They can leap the same distance they can run in a turn without needing to roll, either vertically or horizontally. That's pretty much all the mechanical and thematic weight that Families have, but they tend to shape what your Soul looks like - Giants tend to be huge things, Lurkers tend to be vicious monsters that can hide in the dark, Leviathans tend to be sea monsters, Gorgons tend to be hideously ugly things and Raptors tend to be flying things. The rest of the Family stuff is character seeds, monsters that resonate with them and stereotype lists.
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Apr 15, 2015 16:17
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I like how they ran out of ideas after Powerlessness, Destruction, Depths, and Revulsion, so they added...Skies? Referencing, of course, Man's primal fear of the sky, and birds.
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Apr 15, 2015 16:18
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tatankatonk posted:Guys, where are you going? I swear we're important, too! Hey, stop kidding around, let me in the clubhouse, come on, you said it was cool this time-
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Apr 15, 2015 16:18
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It's got great "someone new joined the gaming group so let's all just pretend their character fits in until they've been fully integrated" feel
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Apr 15, 2015 16:23
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If Raptors had a stronger element of being the sort of secret-revealing, naked-in-front-of-the-classroom, we-know-where-you-live fear, it'd be a stronger family in our post-NSA world. As now, it's the family of birds.
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Apr 15, 2015 16:26
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Gerund posted:If Raptors had a stronger element of being the sort of secret-revealing, naked-in-front-of-the-classroom, we-know-where-you-live fear, it'd be a stronger family in our post-NSA world. As now, it's the family of birds. They'd definitely do better to play up the fears of exposure and the truth and such
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Apr 15, 2015 16:47
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Gerund posted:
Ugallu are about the fear of exposure, both in the sense you describe and in the sense of being stranded in a vast, open place with no shelter or means of survival. Knowledge, observation, and spying are often metaphorically associated with height, towers, and being "above" (hell, that's what the word "surveillance" literally means), and wide open deserts with no place to get underground or inside are natural hunting grounds for giant, winged things. The whole "winged monstrosity" theme also ties into nightmares of plummeting from a tremendous height, which absolutely is a fundamental nightmare built into the human brain. The conceptual link seems pretty clear and interesting to me. Admittedly maybe calling them "Nightmares of Exposure" would get that across better in a slugline than "Nightmares of the Skies," but there's a little more to them than "and also birds, I guess."
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Apr 15, 2015 16:50
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Unfortunately, I would say that the book plays up the actual exposure themes a lot less than it plays up BIIIIIIRDS, HIGH ABOVE YOU!!! Similarly, with Makara, it plays up WAAAATEEEER OOOOO a lot more than feeling crushed, out of control and overwhelmed. And the stereotypes are terrible but when are they ever not?
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Apr 15, 2015 16:53
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Mors Rattus posted:And the stereotypes are terrible but when are they ever not? When they take the form "[splat] may think they [possess trait], but nothing is more [trait] than Satan."
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Apr 15, 2015 17:02
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Can we not cheapen soul loss by allowing it to be inflicted as an uncontested instant action, though.
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Apr 15, 2015 17:04
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In the World of Darkness, talk is cheap. But souls are cheaper. e: I'm just going to make sure that all of my posts from now on could immediately be followed with "With this power, the Lucifuge can-"
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Apr 15, 2015 17:05
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Attorney at Funk posted:In the World of Darkness, talk is cheap. But souls are cheaper.
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Apr 15, 2015 17:11
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GimpInBlack posted:Ugallu are about the fear of exposure, both in the sense you describe and in the sense of being stranded in a vast, open place with no shelter or means of survival. Knowledge, observation, and spying are often metaphorically associated with height, towers, and being "above" (hell, that's what the word "surveillance" literally means), and wide open deserts with no place to get underground or inside are natural hunting grounds for giant, winged things. The whole "winged monstrosity" theme also ties into nightmares of plummeting from a tremendous height, which absolutely is a fundamental nightmare built into the human brain. The conceptual link seems pretty clear and interesting to me. Admittedly maybe calling them "Nightmares of Exposure" would get that across better in a slugline than "Nightmares of the Skies," but there's a little more to them than "and also birds, I guess." I'd buy that there was more to the family than birds doing bird things if their special ability wasn't "leap really far vertically or horizontally, because birds". Rename them to be Nightmares of Exposure and grant them the ability to learn a secret from a target they see instead.
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Apr 15, 2015 17:37
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the atavistic horror of Splash starring Tom Hank
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Apr 15, 2015 18:03
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:the atavistic horror of Splash starring Tom Hank That does sound horrifying. Where are the rest of the Tom Hanks?
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Apr 15, 2015 18:28
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I got Demon because of the discussion in this thread, and I haven't finished reading it, so maybe this is answered, but can a demon make a deal with multiple people to take the same part of their backgrounds? Like, it's almost certainly a terrible idea, since it'd make the cover super weird and encourage mortal investigation, but can a demon just keep on taking, say, peoples' deceased grandmothers to strengthen their cover, until people go "Oh, it's Mr. White, that guy with fourteen dead grandmothers."?
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Apr 15, 2015 18:34
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Doc Aquatic posted:I got Demon because of the discussion in this thread, and I haven't finished reading it, so maybe this is answered, but can a demon make a deal with multiple people to take the same part of their backgrounds? I'd go with "yes, but it's a compromise the minute somebody notices."
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Apr 15, 2015 18:36
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Doc Aquatic posted:I got Demon because of the discussion in this thread, and I haven't finished reading it, so maybe this is answered, but can a demon make a deal with multiple people to take the same part of their backgrounds? I don't think a cover has anything like equipment slots or whatever mechanically to represent specific stolen backstory elements, so yeah as far as I know this is both possible and extremely unwise
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Apr 15, 2015 18:40
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Attorney at Funk posted:That does sound horrifying. Where are the rest of the Tom Hanks? With this power, the Lucifuge can...
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Apr 15, 2015 18:43
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I think fear of the 'sky' is perfectly valid. It encompasses fear of cosmic entities for one (including aliens). We have those fears because the universe is immense and we know dick all about it, so I think that checks out. The metaphorical bits work too. Mankind has developed all kinds of weird rituals and phobias related to open spaces, the continued rotation of the earth, and the coming of night. Yeah, it looks ridiculous when you think of it in the context of sunny days and birds but there's a lot there to play with. Also the sky is really big. Also metaphorical themes.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:02
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I'm not buying it. A primordial fear should have much more personal, primal insight into the human condition than conscious mental creations like religion and astronomy provide in and of themselves. The "being watched/exposed" angle is far, far stronger than any metaphor the sky itself can exclusively provide, and I'm not sure the sky is the best metaphor for being watched available.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:23
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It should also be noted that the powers Ugallu get best access to are generally not about watching or spying or being good at knowing stuff - they're about movement and weather. The sole exception is Needs Must, which gives you a kind of prey-sense for things that will help satisfy your Hunger. Now, admittedly, each Family only gets four Atavisms in the first place, but for the Ugallu, those are: Summon Animals, Sense Prey, Good At Running Around and Summon Thunderstorm.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:28
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For the record: Anakim: Lift Heavy Things, Be Really Big, Memory Tricks (And Also Anti-Lying) and Break Things. Eshmaki: Shoot Fire, Super Stealth, Nasty Claws and Regeneration. Makara: Really Pretty, Grapple Super Well, Grab Bag Of Water-Theme Powers and Grab-Bag Of Voice-Theme Powers Namtaru: Poison Touch, Made Of Bugs, Made Of Shadows and Super Armor
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Apr 15, 2015 20:32
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The sky is where bombs fall from. The sky is where drones and satellites watch you from. The sky is where chemtrails poison you from. The sky is where dragons and rocs and the like swoop down from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbpUcAI86MY
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Apr 15, 2015 20:44
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None of those things are primal fears.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:48
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Atavisms aren't based on fears - the fear powers are Nightmares, which aren't Family-specific. Atavisms are your 'I am actually a monster, so here is my monster nature' abilities. They're physical tricks that are mostly always-on. But even then, Ugallu only really get one even slightly sensory Atavism.
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Apr 15, 2015 20:54
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I really want to like this, but I think the sole fact that we're trying to get our heads about what the concept of each family is, means they aren't well defined. I mean, you can sum up any of Vampire clans in 3 words and it will say much more to me than those  .Edit: e.g, if I'm afraid of a huge that might kill me, am I afraid of being helpless before strength, of being destroyed, of drowning or of exposure? Cable fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 15, 2015 |
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Apr 15, 2015 22:17
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Honestly, most of that stuff seems pretty clear to me. Yeah there's a bit of a grey area, but w/e that's just being flexible. I agree Fear of the Skies would probably work better as Fear of Exposure, but I automatically made that mental leap when I read it so its close enough for me. I don't really care too much about little nitpicks when there's like legit major issues that need to be addressed.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:33
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I get what they're going for, but it comes across as a sky-type pokébeast with wind-themed moves instead of an embodiment of primal dread. Which might works better with Team Rocket as Heroes.
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Apr 15, 2015 22:41
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I'm pretty okay with the families being a little broad and relatively unimportant. That's okay - they're a little more mechanically relevant than Demonic incarnations, but nowhere near as important as Werewolf tribe, Vampire clan or Mage path. I think Makara and Ugallu are both a little overly focused on the image rather than the metaphor but it is such a minor issue compared to everything about Heroes and the power level of Atavisms.
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Apr 15, 2015 23:51
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moths posted:I get what they're going for, but it comes across as a sky-type pokébeast with wind-themed moves instead of an embodiment of primal dread. White Wolf devs, please replace any description of Heroes from the book with making them Team Rocket from Pokemon. They keep scrounging up resources from somewhere, they cause destruction in their weak, they used to be good people, they keep coming back after being defeated (whether spiritually or actually, in Beast), and they have a pathological need to STALK THOSE KIDS AND GET THAT drat PIKACHU
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Apr 15, 2015 23:55
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Yeah, the families are pointless, but they're at least useful inspiration. That makes them miles above the X-splats for Mummy or Geist, which are blatantly there because White Wolf games have X-splats and serve no useful purpose beyond fitting the games to that mold.
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Apr 16, 2015 00:03
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"The prior edition of this roleplaying game was better." - Ferrinus
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Apr 16, 2015 01:05
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The prior edition of Beast (Changeling: the Dreaming) was certainly worse. EDIT: In reality, though, I'd call most of the 1E->2E transitions lateral moves. They're about half and half on fixing or at least tamping down things that were actual problems, and they introduce some cool material, but they also make a few things worse or dumber and discard a fundamental balance and consistency that kept the 1E games grounded, easy to homebrew for, and safe to intermix. Thus far, it does not look worth it to full-on convert to any of the new editions rather than to simply mine them for ideas, but I'm holding out hope for Mage. Actually, my main fear there is that Mage 2E is going to have an incredible foundation but then a ton of goofy overblown crap that only exists to keep pace with Gauru regeneration and Going Loud and whatever else. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 01:22
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Mors Rattus posted:Having a recurring goal isn't inherently bad. For a game that does it right, again, I point to Werewolf. Werewolves have the same goal every month: find something to Sacred Hunt and then loving murder it. Might be a spirit that's trespassing where it shouldn't, a Claimed up to no good, a Shartha doing Shartha poo poo, or some dude you really don't like. But what we're doing tonight, Pinky, is what we do every night - hunt. Yeah, but that's usually pretty exciting. Fulfilling Satiety usually just involves you being a petty dickhead if you're really hungry or a regular dickhead if you're going for desserts. There's nothing like dealing with politics a la Vampire and Mage or managing your morality like Changeling. As a whole, there's not too much conflict beyond getting a snack every so often and murdering pesky Heroes. Hell, the book doesn't even treat Heroes as too serious of a threat. One of them is literally a loving fedora-tipping nerd who wears a trench coat and says "Milady." SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 01:24
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moths posted:I get what they're going for, but it comes across as a sky-type pokébeast with wind-themed moves instead of an embodiment of primal dread.
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Apr 16, 2015 01:38
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is Demon set in 1450s Constantinople still a thing that's coming down the pipe?
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