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Internet Kraken posted:I've just never understood how it became a fetish in the first place. I can see hoe someone would be attracted to the idea of forbidden love but why not choose one of the countless examples that doesn't result in horrible inbred children? Of course trying to understand this stuff in the first place is a fool's errand. The best explanation I've heard is that it's about people thinking they're Nice Guys who are unfairly not given a chance by strangers. "If they really got to know me, they'd know how nice I was!" Therefore, someone who's forced to grow up in the same house as you will by definition fall in love with you at no risk. Throw in the low birth rate in Japan, and therefore these people not actually having sisters, and it's a perfect storm of narcissistic misogyny.
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Apr 18, 2015 21:17
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They pulled this poo poo in Tales of Legendia with Senel and his sister, who was clearly straight-up in love with him from minute one of the plot. As soon as they pulled the "THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY RELATED YOU GUYS" card, somehow that just made me even angrier and I turned the game off in a blind rage and never played it again. The plot was so painfully, obviously arcing in that direction that I couldn't believe they actually went through with it. Database culture really is the absolute worst. The stock anime personality tropes are so tiring at this point that it just makes me not want to play Japanese games at all anymore when they're clearly cribbing off of that worksheet. How do people not get tired of these things being repeated, for years, without ANY variation or deconstruction? I just...I just don't get it. I really don't get it.
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Apr 18, 2015 22:21
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Clarste posted:The best explanation I've heard is that it's about people thinking they're Nice Guys who are unfairly not given a chance by strangers. "If they really got to know me, they'd know how nice I was!" Therefore, someone who's forced to grow up in the same house as you will by definition fall in love with you at no risk. Throw in the low birth rate in Japan, and therefore these people not actually having sisters, and it's a perfect storm of narcissistic misogyny. I guess that sort of makes sense in an awful way. Having grown up with 3 siblings the idea of loving any of them like that is baffling to me. Even if they aren't related by blood its still really creepy though. Especially here where Nichol thinks they aren't related entirely from a conversation he overheard that Franca doesn't even know about.
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Apr 18, 2015 22:28
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Archaotic posted:Database culture really is the absolute worst. The stock anime personality tropes are so tiring at this point that it just makes me not want to play Japanese games at all anymore when they're clearly cribbing off of that worksheet. How do people not get tired of these things being repeated, for years, without ANY variation or deconstruction? I just...I just don't get it. I really don't get it. Stock characters isn't just a Japan thing. American games have plenty of stock and cliche as well, we're just used to it because of culture. Also, most people don't play every single anime game just because it's anime. The only other RPG I've played recently that's from Japan is Dark Souls.
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Apr 18, 2015 22:37
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David Copperfield posted:I Can't Believe My Fellow Soldier In A Brutal Civil War Can Be THIS Cute? No Matter How You Look At It, It's My War Crimes' Fault I'm Not Popular!
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Apr 18, 2015 22:40
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Tae posted:Stock characters isn't just a Japan thing. American games have plenty of stock and cliche as well, we're just used to it because of culture. Also, most people don't play every single anime game just because it's anime. The only other RPG I've played recently that's from Japan is Dark Souls. Of course stock characters aren't strictly a Japan thing. I'm saying specifically that the stock character archetypes from anime are the ones that bug me. The problem for me is that I vastly prefer the gameplay design and narrative structure of JRPGs compared to their Western-developed brethren, but my god are most JRPG characters in recent years absolutely insufferable. It's like Japanese developers forgot that it's possible to make games that can sell on their own merits, and in doing so convinced themselves that they have to pander to insane otaku in order to make anything these days. The announcement for the new Star Ocean game is already dripping with database culture pandering, and that game's only been a thing for like four days.
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Apr 18, 2015 22:47
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well let's not be disingenuous and pretend star ocean ever had good writing
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Apr 18, 2015 23:03
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It's not like JRPGs are the only case of major pandering to a specific demographic, let us not forget the amount of western "Modern Military Shooter" games (it took some self control to not use Yahtzee's name for the genre) that panders to the right wing nutjobs that fear anyone who isn't a white American. Not that it makes it good, just, try not to write off a whole nation because there is pandering to a demographic within a number of their games. As for the other current major talking point: my hypothesis is that it is due to how they feel they should show their love, most people agree that for Storge love, wanting to protect them is a logical response, separately wanting to protect those you love in an Eros fashion also makes sense. The issue may be that he is conflating the two. Tis but a hypothesis though, and it has been shown that the writers put most of their though into how large each character's bust size should be but, well I like hypothesizing and playing devils advocate.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:25
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Cake Attack posted:well let's not be disingenuous and pretend star ocean ever had good writing It's still announcing a game by using a paint-by-numbers character composed of tropes reused in previous SO games.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:26
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Sylphosaurus posted:I'm not american, so we have plenty of names that just means simple stuff like"Wolf", "Wood", "River" and stuff like that. Ain't nothing weird with them, it's the kind of dramatic anime nickenames such as "the red-golden wolf of disaster" or some crap like that when my eyes roll over in my head.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:42
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SSNeoman posted:It's still announcing a game by using a paint-by-numbers character composed of tropes reused in previous SO games. Exactly - some of the tropes in Star Ocean 5 seem to be outright copy-pastes of tropes they just used in SO4. There's a difference between clunky writing and outright recycling bad tropes you've already used before in the previous installment of your series. That's kind of the problem. Tropes are usually not that bad on their own - all writing, even good writing, relies on them to some degree - but when you see the carousel spin around and the exact same riders are on the exact same horses every single time, you kinda lose any reason to keep going back to the carnival.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:50
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Hell, if they wanted to be vaguely historical they coulda just made them cousins; that poo poo was basically allowed forever and while creepy today, would be just strange in the not-European timeframe of the game. Btw, the mentions of actual wines and cheeses in the fake European country is really breaking my willing suspension of disbelief. The anime sord-fightan is something that you eventually learn to bear but that is just too much.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:55
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Intermarriage between cousins is still allowed in most of the world. Things haven't really changed all that much. Also Japan.
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Apr 18, 2015 23:59
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Archaotic posted:Exactly - some of the tropes in Star Ocean 5 seem to be outright copy-pastes of tropes they just used in SO4. There's a difference between clunky writing and outright recycling bad tropes you've already used before in the previous installment of your series. Credit where credit's due: they're copy pastes of tropes from all the Star Oceans except 4. Even Tri-Ace recognizes SO4 as a horrible mistake that should never be repeated. Like I'm pretty sure they've explicitly had press releases to that effect. Neddy Seagoon posted:The real question is who didn't? Valkyria Chronicles 1 did the siblings-not-by-blood thing too and amazingly had the good sense not to go down this road with it. It also had the Perons, who basically did go down this road but had the good sense of pushing it completely over the top into outright absurdity. So god only knows how they screwed it up this time.
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Apr 19, 2015 01:40
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  *Jarde flies*  *happy tweeting* Ngah?! What gives, Jarde? You totally dive bombed me! *flies around, tweets more* What, you want in on this bread? Well tough luck, pal. It's mine! It's a proud day in human history that sees a man fighting a bird for food. Ha ha! Looks like Avon and Jarde both think with their stomachs.*door slams open*   The rebels are headed to the Diebal Mountains on a Darcsen purge. What?! All right, let's get ready, double time!  What do you mean, Juliana? The Darcsens left Europa scorched and barren. What sort of person would willingly put themselves in harm's way for them? The Darcsen Calamity. I'd have thought you too smart to believe in myths. If it is a myth, why don't your people work to make the truth known? They refuse to stand up for themselves, preferring to wallow in self-pity! Hmm... And you respond with silence. How very Darcsen of you! You're a people well suited to the dark, dingy mines.  ...Presumptuous girl! How dare you?! Zeri is our friend, and a member of Class G! You have no right to say that to him, or to anyone else for that matter! Cosette, you didn't have to do that...  Zeri's not who he is because he's Darcsen, he's just him. You're you, right?*bell rings*  Rgh...*leaves* A-Avan, what should I do? I accidentally hit her! Well, not accidentally-- But I really didn't mean to! I just got so mad... I'll go apologize later. You really have no impulse control at all, do you? I'm so sorry, you two. Huh? Why are YOU sorry? You haven't done a thing wrong, Zeri! Now, c'mon. let's go get suited up and ready to go!*Moments later*   The rebels have already begun their assault on the Diebal region. The Darcsen settlements that dot the area are taking significant fire. Well, we're about to to share some of our own ammo with those rebels! Lanseal's bell has tolled. Squad G, move out!*Class G arrives at the site*  Rgh, they beat us here! gently caress, man How could they do this to people who aren't even resisting? Why? Cosette? Honey, you're shaking! Are you okay? Huh? Y-Yeah. I'm fine! I don't get it. How come the Darcsens don't do anything? Are they just going to sit there and get massacred? The Darcsen do not retaliate. Returning violence for violence would tarnish our pride as a people. Well, I'm not about to let these rebels do this! Let's put a stop to it! We're right behind you! The mission is in a new, snowy area with the objective to capture and hold 3 bases. For whatever reason, Baldren is participating in the daily Darcesn genocide and he is...difficult, shall we say.  Anisette and Erik will do their typical guard duty, but otherwise the slots are open for adaptation. Let's move.   Snow can be very dangerous for a long, drawn out battle. Units can't recover their health that occurs at the start of the turn during these kinds of maps, except in base auras. This puts base-hopping at a bigger deal than usual because units running amok doesn't last as long.  This map is usually the back gate, but this is the last you'll see of it in this mission.  Zeri's going to go up the ladder made by Lavinia, shoots the nearby soldier, and captures the first required base.  Now, 99% of the time, dead bodies don't matter. However, going over them makes them disappear from the map. I'm only doing it now because of a very specific gimmick that happens with Baldren.  Reiner is going to do a hit and run to kill that medium tank up ahead.  Helmut kills a Scout along the way and gets working to capture another base, for hopping purposes.  Lavinia deploys in the new area to construct another ladder and guard the base afterwards.  Welp, Nichol spotted Baldren, so he's going back down the ladder and guard the base, too. Turn 1 ends.  So remember how last month's mission was a super spike in difficulty? It spiked again, because I'm pretty sure 99% of people got destroyed by this gimmick if they never knew of it. Recall revives all the dead bodies in the entire mission, like a goddamn necromancer. And for less CP than half of Avan's spells.  Also, Baldren is an Armor Tech with a billion HP and billion AP.  That's a goddamn Maul he has, luckily Nichol dodges the blow and protects the base.  NOPE. His second Order allows him to travel through bases regardless if it's the rebels or ours.  Nichol tries again to capture the base, but is met with a giant rear end Gatling Turret. He manages to throw a grenade at the Scout's sandbag before almost dying.  Avan busts out his only cheap spell to give Nichol that extra second to fire and kill the Scout. Still can't capture the base though, because of the the turret planted there.  Reiner takes advantage of Nichol's sacrifice and blasts the turret in its weakspot, capturing the 2nd base we need.  Helmut goes behind the house to sneak up and capture the top base, giving access to the final map of the mission.  Avan will take the stage and gets ready to take the final base. Distance isn't the problem, it's getting someone that can reach there without dying.  Swords go WAY far. Basically Shocktroopers at the distance they can kill, with the added benefit that you can oneshot even sandbag/grass enemies.  Seriously, only Avan can survive this.  Another advantage of Fencers.  Double kill  You have 4 turns to A rank this mission, but just avoid Baldren as much as possible.   Lord Baldren! A wire from the vanguard unit crossing the pass, sir! Our forces have purged a majority of the settlements in the region. The commander has ordered all troops to fall back, sir.gently caress...  Fall back?! Father would have me retreat while these kids still face us?! B-But, sir! It is a direct order from the commander... Fine, then! This region has been purged of Darcsens anyway. All troops, fall back! All right! There may be survivors around, guys. Let's give them some help! Right!*later that day* Phew! That takes care of the first wave. Hey, where's Zeri? I saw him walking up that hill at the edge of town. He looked like he wanted some time alone, so I didn't stop him. I'll go check on him.*A moment later* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DbYVmmwx6c  Hey, man. Everything okay? Do you know why this had to happen? What? It's because we're Darcsens. We're hated for supposedly leaving Europa in ashes thousands of years ago. They taught us, growing up. Darcsens never retaliate. That the cycle of revenge only hurts us in the end. Why? What'll you do?   I believe it, man!And this is why, despite being a poo poo at times and starting fights with Avan for no reason, I can never really hate Zeri. He could've done a cliche thing and swore revenge against the rebels for blood, but he took the big picture approach all along: Change the perception of Darcsen, change the future for all.  Zeri learns a new Potential that raises his accuracy, a dangerous tool to give a Shocktrooper. 
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Apr 19, 2015 03:14
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For the record, mauls are anti-armor weapons, so Baldren can just walk up and one-shot your APC if you're not careful.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:23
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This mission took me for god-damned ever. Baldren is a complete beast and between his two orders he can easily wipe out a ton of progress then disappear into thin air. Dude is bullshit.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:42
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VC2 is weird because while I really hate its really constant attempts at comedy which form 90% of the plot, it still does some scenes(like this chapter) really well. I like Zeri's character when he's actually talking about his emotions instead of just brooding. Like they actually go cool places with him, we just don't get to see that too often because they use him for comedic relief with Avan too often. Kind of wish he was the protagonist. It feels like there's some good writing beneath all the cliches, struggling to get out.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:42
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Zeri is another character who would've made a better focus than Avan. Avan doesn't really DO anything for the plot. With the original war won and the enemy within as the new antagonist, someone on the margins would've been a good choice for a main character. Instead we get zany anime highschool and then ethnic cleansing.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:50
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If Dahau was still around it would have mixed things up. Another revolutionary movement who defends the Darscens as Lanseal also have to shut them down. Zeri would have seen him as the beacon of hope.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:50
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Night10194 posted:Zeri is another character who would've made a better focus than Avan. Avan doesn't really DO anything for the plot. With the original war won and the enemy within as the new antagonist, someone on the margins would've been a good choice for a main character. Avan is dumb, but charismatic and willing to push others to their potentials in his own way. As much as Zeri has better motivations than "I'm going to be as good as my brother," he wouldn't have the ability to change over 20 rejects into elite soldiers. After all, the only reason why they're getting missions at all is because Avan took charge and became the leader.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:53
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Pictured: The most damage an Engineer will do in or out of combat. Save for the bullshit of that mission, if most of the game was like this update, I would play it in a heartbeat. There was character development and if I wanted to punch someone it was because they were being a huge tool and not because of a "god damnit Japan" reflex.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:56
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Tae posted:Avan is dumb, but charismatic and willing to push others to their potentials in his own way. As much as Zeri has better motivations than "I'm going to be as good as my brother," he wouldn't have the ability to change over 20 rejects into elite soldiers. After all, the only reason why they're getting missions at all is because Avan took charge and became the leader. It's just a minor rewrite. Zeri has all the same motivations he has now, gets unfairly thrown into Class G because of his race, and works his rear end off to whip them into shape. ...which is pretty much the exact same premise as VC3.
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Apr 19, 2015 03:56
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Night10194 posted:Zeri is another character who would've made a better focus than Avan. Avan doesn't really DO anything for the plot. With the original war won and the enemy within as the new antagonist, someone on the margins would've been a good choice for a main character. It kinda feels like there was like one or two dudes on the writing staff who wanted to do interesting things with it, then got overridden by their higher ups. "I got this idea for a guy whos being held as a political hostage" "Sweet, im writing up a character whos part of an oppressed culture, theyll work well of each other" "  HEY GUYS, PERSONA SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES, THIS SHITS GOIN TO HIGH SCHOOL "
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Apr 19, 2015 03:57
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Agean90 posted:It kinda feels like there was like one or two dudes on the writing staff who wanted to do interesting things with it, then got overridden by their higher ups. Would it improve with HBO style drama? You guys would prefer a gritty JRPG with sex, gore and rear end in a top hat protags you want to see die.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:01
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Helmut or Zeri would make interesting 'outsider' protagonists, and the other thing is, like I effortposted earlier, AVAN could be a good character! He could. He just needs to not be an idiot. Just a guy from the lower classes who made his way into officer school and got poo poo on by the ranking system because he's lucky he knows how to read coming in, but who's bright and charismatic and a fast learner. Also, I don't want assholes, I want characters. Not loving cutouts. Also, it's a little late to avoid gritty when one of the main goals of the antagonists is, again, GENOCIDE. They are actively devoting military resources to 'purges'. They're an indigenous Fascist rebellion and poo poo. This is not the place for happy bouncy high school. The characters should at least treat the situation with some degree of dignity. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 04:03
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gyrobot posted:Would it improve with HBO style drama? You guys would prefer a gritty JRPG with sex, gore and rear end in a top hat protags you want to see die. This is false because Avan is an rear end in a top hat protag I want to see die and this does the opposite of improving the game for me.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:14
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Tae posted:Avan is dumb, but charismatic and willing to push others to their potentials in his own way. As much as Zeri has better motivations than "I'm going to be as good as my brother," he wouldn't have the ability to change over 20 rejects into elite soldiers. After all, the only reason why they're getting missions at all is because Avan took charge and became the leader. I feel like Cosette could take that role as well. Instead she gets shoved into the clumsy cheerleader role which is never really needed. I was actually pretty shocked that she stood up to Julianna in such a direct manner. I expected her to sit back doing nothing for basically the whole game, as characters of her archetype are prone to doing. I guess at the end of the day the main problem is that the game's protagonist is Avan, and Avan just isn't likeable.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:29
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gyrobot posted:Would it improve with HBO style drama? You guys would prefer a gritty JRPG with sex, gore and rear end in a top hat protags you want to see die. Night10194 said it better than I could. I just want characters that have more to them than a quirk.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:29
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Krumbsthumbs posted:Pictured: The most damage an Engineer will do in or out of combat. God drat, man.  Agean90 posted:It kinda feels like there was like one or two dudes on the writing staff who wanted to do interesting things with it, then got overridden by their higher ups. That's what I was thinking too. Cake Attack posted:this is actually a thing, called Database Culture. Here is forums poster ImpAtom, who I respect above all others for his knowledge of japanese video games, on the subject (with respect to Senran Kagura specifically.) Wow, that was a really fascinating read. Incidentally, I can actually give an example of it. Meet the main characters from Gundam: Build Fighters Try  . Though Fumina, the girl, is actually pretty badass.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:
Jesus loving christ.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:36
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This... You can't be serious...
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Apr 19, 2015 04:45
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Night10194 posted:Also, I don't want assholes, I want characters. Not loving cutouts. Also, it's a little late to avoid gritty when one of the main goals of the antagonists is, again, GENOCIDE. They are actively devoting military resources to 'purges'. They're an indigenous Fascist rebellion and poo poo. This is not the place for happy bouncy high school. The characters should at least treat the situation with some degree of dignity. This is exactly how I feel as well. Characterization - even of characters I don't like - trumps rigid, two-dimensional tropery any day.
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Apr 19, 2015 04:59
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Neddy Seagoon posted:
Comparing Avan to Sekai is insulting to Avan.
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Apr 19, 2015 05:02
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Oh! Oh! I got one! This is the cast of Digimon Savers/Data Squad There is Daimon Masaru in the middle, the hot-blooded protagonist who is dumb, gets into trouble at school and gets into fights. He...is admittedly pretty awesome actually because he solves problems by punching them in the face. Talking monster giving him lip? Punch it in the face! Annoying partner not shutting up, punch him in the face! Giant fire golem digimon is on a rampage? Punch it in the face! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrHdXHdVJ8w Speaking of, there is also Thomas H Norstein, a stuck up rich boy. He is cold and calculating and looks down on Masaru's hot-blooded approach. He is also voiced by Crispin Freeman and has a thing for Masaru's mom. And finally there's Yoshino Fujieda. She's the Girl. She uhhhh...chews out Masaru sometimes I guess.
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Apr 19, 2015 05:27
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The best part of that mission, and the reason I will never forget Baldren Gassenarl's name is the voice clip he has when he uses any order:Baldren Gassenarl posted:I AM BALDREN GASSENARL! HEAR ME AND OBEY! Every. Time. He. Does. Anything.
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Apr 19, 2015 05:28
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Senerio posted:The best part of that mission, and the reason I will never forget Baldren Gassenarl's name is the voice clip he has when he uses any order: Liam O'Brien chewing scenery never does get old.
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Apr 19, 2015 05:40
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Uh, I hate this mission. Although, I do have one funny story about it. Baldren was running to my starter base, where my tank was hanging out. He proceeds to take down my tank with a single strike, so I am freaking out. I bring out Alexis to try to survive a hit from him, but I wasn't optimistic. He attacks... and Alexis drops to the ground and dodges. Baldren then proceeds to use all of his movement to run away from the base, and then uses another turn to run even further away. I actually managed to win that battle because of that.
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Apr 19, 2015 06:28
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So is it at all possible to defeat the named commanders that are showing up now if you grinded a ton/cheated? I assume nothing significant happens but I'm wondering if the game will even let you hurt them.
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Apr 19, 2015 06:30
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yeah you can
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Apr 19, 2015 06:31
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