Cultural Appropriation

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Cultural Appropriation

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

CarrKnight posted:

Can I stil llisten to Jamiroquai?

You can do as you please. But if you don't listen to Morris Day and the Time or Sly and the Family Stone I reserve the right to find you laughable.

# ? Apr 20, 2015 03:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 23, 2024 11:18

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

VitalSigns posted:

Can't we discuss issues and ideas in more depth and complexity than it takes to explain to a football fan that his indian war chants are really insulting?

When we try to convince someone that anti-abortion laws hurt women, do we drag out our undergrad textbooks and launch into a discussion of virtue ethics and how they compare to utilitarianism as a framework for the legal system, and ask him to defend the repugnant conclusion in light of his pro-life stance? No, those terms aren't much use in arguing with picketers outside a clinic, are they good for anything then?

Depth isn't complexity. Even in the study of ethics, the goal isn't to make things needlessly complex, it's to understand the subject (and humans) better. It's as simple as something that covers what it does could be. Does CA add to that? As a placeholder for 'diffusion which is bad (see: reasons it can be bad)', it might save some paper. Beyond that, its questionable. I certainly don't think it adds structure to the social rules we follow. But that's how it's been used.

Like it's strange that you would claim CA is both this kind of context-probe, this generally useful device, and then claim it's too deep or complex for the lowest common denominator.

rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Apr 20, 2015

# ? Apr 20, 2015 03:29

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Most ideas have too much depth and complexity to appeal to the lowest common denominator. "How many words can you get out before a Rush Limbaugh caller tells you to move to Russia, you commie" is not the highest of bars.

"What if being born into a poor black family is random and not a punishment from God for your future laziness" is a bit too complex.

# ? Apr 20, 2015 03:37

Pauline Kael: Oct 9, 2012; by Shine

SedanChair posted:

You can do as you please. But if you don't listen to Morris Day and the Time or Sly and the Family Stone I reserve the right to find you laughable.

Why you? What is your special hook into those particular groups?

# ? Apr 20, 2015 16:55

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Pauline Kael posted:

Why you? What is your special hook into those particular groups?

Why not me? I have opinions like everybody else. If you don't agree, discount me.

# ? Apr 20, 2015 18:49

Voyager I: Jun 29, 2012; This is how your posting feels.
🐥🐥🐥🐥🐥

SedanChair posted:

Why not me? I have opinions like everybody else. If you don't agree, discount me.

Way ahead of you, friend.

# ? Apr 21, 2015 00:09

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Indeed, considering how everyone has them, opinions are like assholes.

# ? Apr 21, 2015 08:03

Lame Devil: Mar 21, 2013; Heroes of the Storm
Goon Tournament Champion

dk2m posted:

I'm just pointing out that cultural appropriation is an idealistic theory that is not an objective fact. How can you defend something like that? It's a distraction from more pressing issues - systematic racism, overt prejudice, economic inequality. These are all things that no one can deny because they are based on reality, on statistics and evidence.

Again, the dominant/subordinate group ideology is prevalent in Sociology. In terms of power relations, cultural appropriation is supposed to further subjugate the subordinate group. If you buy into the idea that you can view the entire structure of society in terms of competing groups with a currency based on power, then you can make an argument that a subjugated group is exoticized in a manner that trivializes legitimate claims. Perhaps this is considered cultural appropriation.

Let's look at this further. Assuming that the dominant group does indeed subjugate a subordinate group based on race, we can ostensibly classify that as systematic racism. There is no counter argument to that. Even if you disagree with the idea of power and classes, there is tangible evidence through statistics and history to prove the point that a group of people are not part of the national narrative in a meaningful way.

If that group is then exoticized on an individual basis, that is prejudice. If they are exoticized en-masse through media, entertainment, social relations - that is still systematic racism.

Those people are now reduced to a status of trivialization - they do not have political power, nor do they have cultural cache. They are targets of humiliation and prejudice, both in a macro and micro setting. This again sounds like institutional/systematic racism and personal prejudice to me.

Where does cultural appropriation take place here? It's a smoke screen that is directing valuable attention away from the larger issue of racism. Not only that, but it alienates people who do not share a world-view consistent with Marxist thought. Why would you do that? There are no statistics to prove it exists, there are no guidelines or external signs of them. It's easy to confuse it with actual systematic racism and you have to analyze events on a case-by-case basis to determine whether they meet the definition of cultural appropriation or not. It seems like a pretty useless and subjective tool to me. The fact that it derives it's entire value on subjective interpretations of the world is its downfall for me.

I'd honestly like to hear a counter argument to this - perhaps I'm completely wrong and there is some worth to it.

I think CA takes place as a factor that contributes to systematic racism. I understand your point on the usefulness of it to convince, but if we are trying to understand factors that contribute to exoticization wouldn't CA be one? Good post by the way.

# ? Apr 21, 2015 17:55

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Lame Devil posted:

I think CA takes place as a factor that contributes to systematic racism. I understand your point on the usefulness of it to convince, but if we are trying to understand factors that contribute to exoticization wouldn't CA be one? Good post by the way.

Why would CA contribute to exoticization? If anything, appropriating anything and everything from another culture should make it (or a modified copy of it) less exotic and more a barely-noteworthy part of everyday life to the appropriators.

# ? Apr 21, 2015 19:36

Lame Devil: Mar 21, 2013; Heroes of the Storm
Goon Tournament Champion

blowfish posted:

Why would CA contribute to exoticization? If anything, appropriating anything and everything from another culture should make it (or a modified copy of it) less exotic and more a barely-noteworthy part of everyday life to the appropriators.

I'm no sociologist, but I don't think exoticism correlates indirectly with familiarity. You can constantly expose a public to something, and, every time you do, it could reinforce that the thing is 'other.' I don't think all CA reinforces that the thing is 'other,' but it seems like the paradigm example of the headdress does. Maybe someone more learned can speak on that relationship.

edit: indirectly, not directly.

Lame Devil fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Apr 22, 2015

# ? Apr 22, 2015 00:15

Let us English: Feb 21, 2004; Actual photo of Let Us English, probably seen here waking his wife up in the morning talking about chemical formulae when all she wants is a hot cup of shhhhh

Lame Devil posted:

I'm no sociologist, but I don't think exoticism correlates indirectly with familiarity. You can constantly expose a public to something, and, every time you do, it could reinforce that the thing is 'other.' I don't think all CA reinforces that the thing is 'other,' but it seems like the paradigm example of the headdress does. Maybe someone more learned can speak on that relationship.

edit: indirectly, not directly.

In this thread it seems to be related to familiarity. You can look through it and see people are happy to engage in Orientalism to support their argument while posters that actually live in East Asia shake their head. As for the headdress thing, I think that has to do with familiarity with the cultures at hand. I'm willing to bet most of the hipsters wearing headdresses don't have any regular contact with natives. People who grew up in an area with a high native population don't exoticise the headdress because seeing them worn at PowWows and other events is just what goes on from time to time, their not some exotic style of dress only seen in movies. That's just a hunch though, and I could be mistaken, but I grew up in a state with many different native tribes and I can't imagine anyone that I grew up with wearing a headdress at a concert. It seems much easier to paint a culture you have no contact with as exotic.

# ? Apr 22, 2015 01:12

VideoGames: Aug 18, 2003

i used to think different people meeting, talking, sharing and propagating their learnings was chill and cool.

but now I have come to understand that it is actually offensive to everyone constantly and that severe wrongdoings and injustice is the norm. i think we should live in colourless cocoons from now on to save us from this barrage of offense.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 14:57

Pauline Kael: Oct 9, 2012; by Shine

VideoGames posted:

i used to think different people meeting, talking, sharing and propagating their learnings was chill and cool.

but now I have come to understand that it is actually offensive to everyone constantly and that severe wrongdoings and injustice is the norm. i think we should live in colourless cocoons from now on to save us from this barrage of offense.

Agreed. Any sort of cultural/scientific/technological progress must be kept within the border of the nation or ethnicity from whence it sprung. This is surely the only way to protect the downtrodden and make sure that nobody inadvertently (or vertently!) causes offense, to anyone, ever. Now what the hell am I going to do with this case lot of rubber tomahawks?

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:03

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Anything will offend someone, somewhere to the core of their being. Accordingly, everyone should do nothing.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:13

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Source your :freep:

-quotes y'all, it's not funny if we can't go read the whole FR thread

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:14

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Source your LF-quotes y'all, it's not funny if we can't go read the whole offsite forum

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:15

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

blowfish posted:

Anything will offend white folks, everywhere to the core of their being. Accordingly, everyone should not worry too much about it.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:20

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

"Basic respect for others" is an evil plot by the Red Man to destroy all culture and imprison the white race in colorless sensory deprivation.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:27

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

SedanChair posted:

Anything will offend [...]. Accordingly, everyone should not worry too much about it.

VitalSigns posted:

"Basic respect for others" is an evil plot by the Red Man to destroy all culture and imprison the white race in colorless sensory deprivation.

i have low esteem for others

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:27

VideoGames: Aug 18, 2003

Pauline Kael posted:

Agreed. Any sort of cultural/scientific/technological progress must be kept within the border of the nation or ethnicity from whence it sprung. This is surely the only way to protect the downtrodden and make sure that nobody inadvertently (or vertently!) causes offense, to anyone, ever. Now what the hell am I going to do with this case lot of rubber tomahawks?

holy poo poo at all the retarded stuff Effectronica was saying to you earlier in the thread. goddamn that guy is a loving idiot

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:35

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

Is Effectronica a rename of the guy that threw a tantrum last year about Parmesan cheese not actually being from Parma?

Baron Porkface fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Apr 23, 2015

# ? Apr 23, 2015 15:41

Morkies: Apr 19, 2015; by zen death robot

i think effrontica is trolling, or at least half trolling

# ? Apr 23, 2015 16:49

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

Baron Porkface posted:

Is Effectronica a rename of the guy that threw a tantrum last year about Parmesan cheese not actually being from Parma?

pta is still here.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 17:17

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Baron Porkface posted:

Is Effectronica a rename of the guy that threw a tantrum last year about Parmesan cheese not actually being from Parma?

PT6A, and he is much less insane than Effectronica when talking about anything except cheese terroirs.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 17:22

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

blowfish posted:

PT6A, and he is much less insane than Effectronica

He praises GM automobiles and trashes superior European and Japanese automobiles. Pretty close.

# ? Apr 23, 2015 21:21

ChairMaster: Aug 22, 2009; by R. Guyovich

I'm pretty sure only white people have ever been offended by appropriation of anything, people from other races have better things to worry about, like getting shot by police or heating the reservation or that kind of thing.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 02:27

CarrKnight: May 24, 2013

ChairMaster posted:

I'm pretty sure only white people have ever been offended by appropriation of anything, people from other races have better things to worry about, like getting shot by police or heating the reservation or that kind of thing.

Explain it to the cornrows lady.

Or this random dude on tumblr

(or pretty much anything on TumblrInAction)

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:07

PerpetualSelf: Apr 6, 2015; by Ralp

Why the gently caress would anyone seriously read tumblrinaction?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:18

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

PerpetualSelf posted:

Why the gently caress would anyone seriously read tumblrinaction?

Some people like to laugh at stupid people who say speaking more than one language is cultural appropriation.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:28

CarrKnight: May 24, 2013

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Some people like to laugh at stupid people who say speaking more than one language is cultural appropriation.

It is absolutely entertaining.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:43

TheImmigrant: Jan 18, 2011

CarrKnight posted:

Explain it to the cornrows lady.

Or this random dude on tumblr

(or pretty much anything on TumblrInAction)

This is what happens when you abandon a reasonable-person standard for offensiveness, and instead defer to the shrillest seekers of offensive in existence.

And really, wouldn't the Hispanic dude be committing cultural appropriation too, by responding to the Anglo guy in English? Hmmmm.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 03:46

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

No this is what happens when you find the most insane parody view possible to validate your persecution complex and crow "I knew it, the feminists/injuns/negras/mexicans/scary folk want to kill white Christian men! :cry:

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:04

CarrKnight: May 24, 2013

VitalSigns posted:

No this is what happens when you find the most insane parody view possible to validate your persecution complex and crow "I knew it, the feminists/injuns/negras/mexicans/scary folk want to kill white Christian men! "

Yeah, one should not read too much into it. It's has entertainment value but one should not look at those corner cases as representative of anything.

CarrKnight fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 24, 2015

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:06

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

ChairMaster posted:

I'm pretty sure only white people have ever been offended by appropriation of anything, people from other races have better things to worry about, like getting shot by police or heating the reservation or that kind of thing.

Ah yes, the usual dismissal anytime minorities want to talk about something. They don't really care about what they're saying, it's all white Yankee liberals coming in and stirring up trouble where there weren't none before.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:12

Morbus: May 18, 2004

dk2m posted:

I'm just pointing out that cultural appropriation is an idealistic theory that is not an objective fact. How can you defend something like that? It's a distraction from more pressing issues - systematic racism, overt prejudice, economic inequality. These are all things that no one can deny because they are based on reality, on statistics and evidence.

Again, the dominant/subordinate group ideology is prevalent in Sociology. In terms of power relations, cultural appropriation is supposed to further subjugate the subordinate group. If you buy into the idea that you can view the entire structure of society in terms of competing groups with a currency based on power, then you can make an argument that a subjugated group is exoticized in a manner that trivializes legitimate claims. Perhaps this is considered cultural appropriation.

Let's look at this further. Assuming that the dominant group does indeed subjugate a subordinate group based on race, we can ostensibly classify that as systematic racism. There is no counter argument to that. Even if you disagree with the idea of power and classes, there is tangible evidence through statistics and history to prove the point that a group of people are not part of the national narrative in a meaningful way.

If that group is then exoticized on an individual basis, that is prejudice. If they are exoticized en-masse through media, entertainment, social relations - that is still systematic racism.

Those people are now reduced to a status of trivialization - they do not have political power, nor do they have cultural cache. They are targets of humiliation and prejudice, both in a macro and micro setting. This again sounds like institutional/systematic racism and personal prejudice to me.

Where does cultural appropriation take place here? It's a smoke screen that is directing valuable attention away from the larger issue of racism. Not only that, but it alienates people who do not share a world-view consistent with Marxist thought. Why would you do that? There are no statistics to prove it exists, there are no guidelines or external signs of them. It's easy to confuse it with actual systematic racism and you have to analyze events on a case-by-case basis to determine whether they meet the definition of cultural appropriation or not. It seems like a pretty useless and subjective tool to me. The fact that it derives it's entire value on subjective interpretations of the world is its downfall for me.

I'd honestly like to hear a counter argument to this - perhaps I'm completely wrong and there is some worth to it.

There is nothing wrong with your argument. The reason issues like cultural appropriation are singled out and separated from the more general and valuable context of systematic racism is that it gives indignant holier-than-thou faux-acivists something to find Problematic and poo poo out words about, without actually doing anything important or performing any real introspection.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:13

TheImmigrant: Jan 18, 2011

VitalSigns posted:

No this is what happens when you find the most insane parody view possible to validate your persecution complex and crow "I knew it, the feminists/injuns/negras/mexicans/scary folk want to kill white Christian men! "

You sound like you are feeling persecuted.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:19

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

PerpetualSelf posted:

Why the gently caress would anyone seriously read tumblrinaction?

I've never heard of goons circle jerk about posts from crazy people before.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 04:28

ChairMaster: Aug 22, 2009; by R. Guyovich

VitalSigns posted:

Ah yes, the usual dismissal anytime minorities want to talk about something. They don't really care about what they're saying, it's all white Yankee liberals coming in and stirring up trouble where there weren't none before.

White people aren't a minority.

# ? Apr 24, 2015 05:46

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

VitalSigns posted:

No this is what happens when you find the most insane parody view possible to validate your persecution complex and crow "I knew it, the feminists/injuns/negras/mexicans/scary folk want to kill white Christian men! "

I like how you assume nobody on your side could be stupid enough to say something like that so it's obviously a False Flag.

Is there a term for this phenomenon?

# ? Apr 24, 2015 06:01

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 23, 2024 11:18

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

There's an amusing tension here between the person claiming everyone who talks about cultural appropriation is a liberal WASP and the people claiming this tumblr hispanic guy telling anglos not to speak spanish is a totally forserious realpost. It's got to be one or the other, right?

Anyway "Anglos aren't allowed to speak Spanish" is pretty obvious parody, but even if it's not and you're quoting a genuine idiot, you're doing the equivalent of driving around a protest looking for someone in a Guy Fawkes' mask to say something idiotic so you don't have to think about anything.

I don't know why you're trawling tumblr here instead of the tumblr mock thread, but we do have a freep mock thread in D&D so it's only fair I suppose. Both sides.

E: Come to think of it, the tumblr screencaps are the funniest part of this thread, so don't stop on my account

VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Apr 24, 2015

# ? Apr 24, 2015 06:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Cultural Appropriation

«‹›63 »