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Waterhaul posted:Continuity wise I'm sure there will be plenty of ways that people will try to rationalize how this could/couldn't work though they've seperated these versions from the original characters that it shouldn't matter. Before leaving Bendis wanted to make his mark and make one of the original characters gay and that's fine. The scene itself is nice and it'll be more telling how people try and handle the issue further down the road with present day Bobby Except, as others have noticed, There are rather unfortunate implications if Young Bobby is gay and old Bobby is straight-there's not been consistent implications of Old Bobby's sexuality the way there was for Northstar, or Kitty. This feels like it came out of nowhere.
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Apr 21, 2015 10:41
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Yvonmukluk posted:Except, as others have noticed, There are rather unfortunate implications if Young Bobby is gay and old Bobby is straight-there's not been consistent implications of Old Bobby's sexuality the way there was for Northstar, or Kitty. This feels like it came out of nowhere. If is the main word. As i said it all depends on how people deal with future Bobby since they've yet to give their opinion or even say they were straight. The scene itself is fine, it depends on how it's expanded on in future issues.
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Apr 21, 2015 10:52
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Waterhaul posted:If is the main word. As i said it all depends on how people deal with future Bobby since they've yet to give their opinion or even say they were straight. The scene itself is fine, it depends on how it's expanded on in future issues. Except it says Bobby 'Put Away' his homosexuality? Why wouldn't old Bobby have come out before, since homosexuality is no longer taboo? How come Teen Jean is the one to learn this, when other telepaths have been in Bobby's head and never noticed? And then they pretty much immediately dismiss any possibility of him being Bisexual out of hand. Plus the FLAGRANT VIOLATION OF HIS PRIVACY by wandering around in his head without permission. Honestly, there's a right way to have a character come out as gay (Striker in Avengers Academy leaps to mind) and a wrong way, and this is clearly the latter. Plus I have a massive dislike for writers wanting to 'leave their mark' on books if they're just throwing something into the mix and walking away. If you're going to make a major change to a character like this, it's your job as a writer to actually explore the ramifications on the wider mythos, instead of leaving other writers to wrap up the mess-especially if it marks a break with what came before.
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Apr 21, 2015 11:32
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Being gay is still taboo and there is no wrong way to come out. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions about future Bobby when as of yet nothing has been shown of it. Maybe other telepaths did find out and didn't want to tell him, maybe nobody went looking. People suppress their sexuality all the time, all of it just depends on how the issue is followed up on.
Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 11:39
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This all sounds very poorly thought out.
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Apr 21, 2015 11:47
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Lurdiak posted:This all sounds very poorly thought out. It's a Bendis comic. I love that this needs to be implied. It's always poorly thought out. The fact the man thinks he needs to leave a mark (because he hasn't left enough as is) and that mark is to change an established character's identity completely at random is just pathetic. No, it is not "fine" as someone said above. It's pathetic. It's the "so edgy" attitude of the 90's but evolved for our age. And you just know he picked Bobby randomly because he was the least used character in his run other than Warren, but Warren had teen sex with X23, so it couldn't be him, oh no. Urgh. Speaking of the 90's, at one point Emma Frost shared Bobby's mind with him for a longass time. When she "returned" to her own body, the first thing she did was to flirt with him. She sure knew he was gay. If he wanted to do this properly he would probably have picked Kitty Pryde. Except Bendis has a boner for her, so she's clearly straight.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:05
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Waterhaul posted:Being gay is still taboo and there is no wrong way to come out. Well why has nobody else noticed this until now? Emma Frost once was in Bobby's head and wound up using his powers better than he could, you'd think she might have noticed that little tidbit. Plus Bendis slamming the door on the possibility of Bobby's bisexuality is kind of unfortunate, since isn't some people dismissing bisexuals as homosexuals still in denial an actual problem? I mean I get Bendis is trying to stop future writers from ignoring this outright, but it kind of has unfortunate implications. Actually someone's already pointed that out-I'd post a link, but it also has scans of the pages in question so I'm guessing that'd be a no-no. Plus I'm fairly certain (jokes aside) there's never been serious hints Bobby is gay, the same way one could argue that Kitty is lesbian/bisexual. When the only explanation for a plot hole brought about by a new revelation is 'because the writer only just decided this', that's usually the sign of a bad retcon. It's why Striker worked-there were hints going right back to the first issue of Academy he was gay. While Bobby has now apparently always been gay, right back to when Stan created him 50 years ago, because Bendis says so. If he'd chosen Kitty or Ilyana, that would make some sense, since Claremont wrote them in such a way one could easily interpret their behaviour in that light (and several people already have).
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Apr 21, 2015 12:10
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Lurdiak posted:This all sounds very poorly thought out. Make him bisexual (far too few characters in comics anyway) and the whole thing works fine.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:15
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Decius posted:Make him bisexual (far too few characters in comics anyway) and the whole thing works fine. It would make a lot more sense if time travel wasn't involved. Or if he picked a character who had something resembling a hint of homosexuality, or at least of having insecurity in that department. Hell, Bobby coming out as trans would make more sense than his past self being told he's gay. This is just Bendis slamming a square peg into a round hole like he always does... no pun intended. I really shouldn't get bogged down discussing the specifics like this, though. The idea is stupid on its face and it's obvious where it's coming from.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:20
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Yvonmukluk posted:I mean I get Bendis is trying to stop future writers from ignoring this outright I love how Bendis completely ignores everything anyone has ever written about the X-Men, even to the point of outright disregarding it on purpose like Corsair's "I got better" (as one example), but he can put his "mark", leave, and it will be considered bad form for whoever comes later to change or ignore his "developments". This is very professional. John Byrne professional, even.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:22
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Lurdiak posted:I really shouldn't get bogged down discussing the specifics like this, though. The idea is stupid on its face and it's obvious where it's coming from. Which is really the main point. It's comics, dumb retcons are happening weekly, this one may actually just do some good.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:23
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Waterhaul posted:Which is really the main point. It's comics, dumb retcons are happening weekly, this one may actually just do some good. I highly doubt that.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:23
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How could a badly thought out retcon do any good? This is not a good argument to have. This isn't Northstar's Wedding, because that was progressive. This new "development" is just "because".
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Apr 21, 2015 12:26
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There are plenty of gay kids that read comics and there are less than a handful of gay characters. The more the better, especially if they do something with them since Bobby is a founding X-Men and one of the few the general public knows. EDIT: Also calling Northstar's wedding progressive is laughable. Where is that character now? What books are they in? What have they ever done? Who outside of X-Men fans know who the character is? It was a publicity stunt for a book that wasn't selling and nobody cared about it after it was done. Should the All New team stay around you will have a gay teen character on the main X-book. That's something, that's something for gay teens and kids to look at and feel good about. Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 12:27
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Pfff. Ticking boxes is hardly an excuse for bad writing, especially when the way this is written is pretty insulting all around. Yeah, the Marvel U has too many white straight men and too few anything else, but there were a million better ways to do this, even if you were dead set on having someone established come out instead of creating a new character. Cuz we all know Ms. Marvel is selling like poo poo and getting no media attention compared to the latest reinvention of Established Character Moon Knight.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:32
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I never said it excused bad writing. I just said that it was a good thing to have more gay teen characters and the main thing will be how future writers handle the issue and interactions with future Bobby.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:38
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I dunno. To me this is so inelegant and patronising that it's almost like if Punisher had stayed black and we decided to count that as a win since it adds diversity.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:45
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Waterhaul posted:EDIT: Also calling Northstar's wedding progressive is laughable. Where is that character now? What books are they in? What have they ever done? Who outside of X-Men fans know who the character is? It was a publicity stunt for a book that wasn't selling and nobody cared about it after it was done. Should the All New team stay around you will have a gay teen character on the main X-book. That's something, that's something for gay teens and kids to look at and feel good about. Can you really not see the huge contradiction on your argument here? Yes, Northstar's wedding was partly a publicity stunt, but mostly it was Marjorie Liu who requested it and the tons of media attention it got is what made it progressive. "It's not wrong for a gay character to have a healthy relationship and even marry!", it said. Turning Bobby gay "because" won't even be touched by the press as they wouldn't even be able to explain it to their audience other than "look, he's now gay because the writer said so!". If other writers don't really want to touch Northstar and his husband, that's a completely different problem (he's supposedly still around in one of the X-Men teams). Forcing a new status quo for Bobby doesn't change that, like, at all. Some writer who doesn't like it will make his own version of "he got better" and retcon that away. Or just put the character on the background until people forget he exists. Gay teenagers won't look into Bobby's new status quo and just go "I see myself in him" -- I imagine any with a brain in their heads will be disgusted at this forced attempt to make a character gay, because there's nothing worse than introducing token characters out of nowhere or forcing an existing one into becoming a token character. That poo poo is not progressive at all. It's amazing you can't see the difference. Edit: and Jesus, are we forgetting Anole?? He's a gay, teen character. He's around as much as yet another teen X-Men character can be around. If Bendis had actually a progressive agenda he would use Anole, but no, instead he's turning an established character gay because it will leave a "mark". This is bad no matter how one looks at it. Saoshyant fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 12:54
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Waterhaul posted:Which is really the main point. It's comics, dumb retcons are happening weekly, this one may actually just do some good. I wish I shared your optimism that it may do some good. Again, I find the implication that the X-Men inadvertently served as Bobby's conversion therapy to be immensely troubling. I could be wrong. This could all be handled well and carefully and respectfully and it will be awesome. I just don't know that I have enough faith that it will be handled that way.
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Apr 21, 2015 12:59
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I'm a big Bendis fan, I love this series, and while I've not seen the panels in question and won't until the book comes out this all sounds really dumb in theory. I'll wait until I've actually read the issue and gotten the full story of what's going on though before I comment more as I really need some actual context and not just a random leaked page or more accurately people's thoughts on a random leaked page.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:01
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Waterhaul posted:I never said it excused bad writing. I just said that it was a good thing to have more gay teen characters and the main thing will be how future writers handle the issue and interactions with future Bobby. He created a bunch of new characters for X-Men, why didn't he make one of them gay?
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Apr 21, 2015 13:08
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Maybe Bobby is actually Mormon
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Apr 21, 2015 13:14
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Yvonmukluk posted:He created a bunch of new characters for X-Men, why didn't he make one of them gay? If that was written out though, I don't know, I stopped following Bendis X-men.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:14
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I wish I shared your optimism that it may do some good. Again, I find the implication that the X-Men inadvertently served as Bobby's conversion therapy to be immensely troubling. Nah I know it can be handled horribly. It can go tone deaf, all the interactions with Future Bobby could be horrible as well as Future Bobby explaining why he hid or supressed things, this could just confirm the past X-Men are just alternate universe versions of the characters and not really the past versions so it doesn't "really matter". Future Bobby could legit be straight and "turned" at some point which is the worst possible outcome. There's a million different ways things could go wrong but I'd like to think it won't. All depends on what post Secret Wars X-Men turns out to be but I've seen a lot of positive reaction on gay sites and tumblr and that from gay teens so I'm going with the positives for now. Yvonmukluk posted:He created a bunch of new characters for X-Men, why didn't he make one of them gay? He did. And this is projecting on Bendis but there are gay characters in X-Men, he's created new gay characters himself throughout the years. Changing an established household name character like Bobby means there is a well known X character that won't disappear that is gay. There's a reason it's one of the original five and not a different X-character
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Apr 21, 2015 13:26
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Saoshyant posted:I love how Bendis completely ignores everything anyone has ever written about the X-Men, even to the point of outright disregarding it on purpose like Corsair's "I got better" (as one example), This is a lovely example. When bringing Corsair back, it would have been distracting to the story to have to explain away why he was alive. Then it was followed up on later in a story that did matter and was a large plot point, just like it should have been.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:33
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I just really wish he'd allowed for the option of Bobby being bisexual. Kid even brings it up himself! I could see present Bobby being bi and just having suppressed that and gone out with women all the time as a 'path of least resistance' thing and to avoid censure, sure. I guess bi Bobby would be way easier to ignore, though.  Which is a bummer, but there you go. I'll probably buy/read the issue anyway, because whatever. It does feel a little patronizing that like, the only reason he's not lusting after teen Jean like literally everyone else is because he's gay, but whatever, fine. Also, Northstar is still around and in Amazing, isn't he? I've fallen behind on that series but I'm pretty sure that dude's still doing things, even if those things don't really involve his husband and he's not a focal character. I liked Liu's issues of Astonishing with him a lot. That was the first I'd really read of the character. Ultimately I guess I do want to see it in full context in my hands so there's no way anything was misconstrued without context, or edited in Photoshop or whatever.  And hey, this has the X thread more active than it's been in ages!
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Apr 21, 2015 13:37
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Codependent Poster posted:This is a lovely example. It's the first that came to mind. Cheapening a recent character death, because it's comics is lovely enough but that laissez-faire attitude about it was just filth. Codependent Poster posted:Then it was followed up on later in a story that did matter and was a large plot point, just like it should have been. I don't know this story. Which comic was this on?
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Apr 21, 2015 13:48
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Saoshyant posted:It's the first that came to mind. Cheapening a recent character death, because it's comics is lovely enough but that laissez-faire attitude about it was just filth. Cyclops. A great series.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:51
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He died in 2007. That's a lifetime in comics.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:55
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That's Greg Rucka's, though. The guy was making it a point that Bendis addressed that retcon properly, which, surprise surprise, he didn't. Of course Rucka would have to address why one of his main characters was alive and kicking when he shouldn't. I'll be getting the trades for Cyclops. Supposedly the writer that came after Rucka also kicked it out of the park. Saoshyant fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 13:55
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How long has the actual Jean Grey been dead now? Over a decade now isn't it?Saoshyant posted:That's Greg Rucka's, though. The guy was making it a point that Bendis addressed that retcon properly, which, surprise surprise, he didn't. Of course Rucka would have to address why one of his main characters was alive and kicking when he shouldn't. The point he was making was that the details of the resurrection of Corsair didn't matter in the moment when he showed back up. And he's right, it didn't. It was addressed later in full as it should have been.
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Apr 21, 2015 13:57
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Also there is no Future Bobby. There's Past Bobby and Present Bobby. There was a Future Bobby and he's Ice Gandalf but he's not around right now.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:00
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Deadpool posted:The point he was making was that the details of the resurrection of Corsair didn't matter in the moment when he showed back up. And he's right, it didn't. It was addressed later in full as it should have been. And my point was that it's pretty disrespectful to completely disregard anything written previously that didn't fit into Bendis' ill conception of what a plot should be. Hell, I also said that was the first detail I remember like that. How do people feel about Xavier marrying Mystique? Or X23 apparently pulling a 180º on her incapacity to deal with human emotions going from having a out of nowhere crush on young Scout to suddenly telling Warren to bring her to a night club and suddenly being a couple afterwards? Or Dark Beast returning from AoA for no good reason? Or a bunch of other retarded stuff that many a time reads like bad fanfiction, but to the guy feel like amazing ideas that are going to be such shocking twists. Deadpool posted:It was addressed later in full as it should have been. By another writer. This argument only makes sense if it had been Bendis himself addressing it, even if it was on Guardians of the Galaxy or whatever.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:10
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Saoshyant posted:And my point was that it's pretty disrespectful to completely disregard anything written previously that didn't fit into Bendis' ill conception of what a plot should be. Hell, I also said that was the first detail I remember like that. How do people feel about Xavier marrying Mystique? Or X23 apparently pulling a 180º on her incapacity to deal with human emotions going from having a out of nowhere crush on young Scout to suddenly telling Warren to bring her to a night club and suddenly being a couple afterwards? Or Dark Beast returning from AoA for no good reason? Or a bunch of other retarded stuff that many a time reads like bad fanfiction, but to the guy feel like amazing ideas that are going to be such shocking twists. You act like the other writer picked up the story a year later. It happened within a month or two after. They obviously planned it out so the other writer would pick up that plot line. How Corsair resurrected didn't matter at all at the time because they were in the middle of trying to rescue Jean. As soon as that wrapped up the Cyclops series started and the first arc is about that. Bendis knew Rucka was doing the series and Rucka knew that Bendis was bringing Corsair back. If Corsair disappeared for a year without any reference to it all you might have a point. But since the plot was immediately picked up you don't. It being a different writer in a different series doesn't matter at all.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:15
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Waterhaul posted:Nah I know it can be handled horribly. It can go tone deaf, all the interactions with Future Bobby could be horrible as well as Future Bobby explaining why he hid or supressed things, this could just confirm the past X-Men are just alternate universe versions of the characters and not really the past versions so it doesn't "really matter". Future Bobby could legit be straight and "turned" at some point which is the worst possible outcome. There's a million different ways things could go wrong but I'd like to think it won't. All depends on what post Secret Wars X-Men turns out to be but I've seen a lot of positive reaction on gay sites and tumblr and that from gay teens so I'm going with the positives for now. You know, I do get it. It's a nice idea to put a little more LGBTQ representation into any franchise. The whole way he's doing it just really awful. Like others have mentioned the double minority suppression thing just hits a little too close to gay conversion therapy here, and the implication that it actually did work on present Iceman (again, telepaths have been in present Iceman's head a couple of times) is a really disturbing idea because, frankly, it does not loving work in real life.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:16
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Waterhaul posted:Nah I know it can be handled horribly. It can go tone deaf, all the interactions with Future Bobby could be horrible as well as Future Bobby explaining why he hid or supressed things, this could just confirm the past X-Men are just alternate universe versions of the characters and not really the past versions so it doesn't "really matter". Future Bobby could legit be straight and "turned" at some point which is the worst possible outcome. There's a million different ways things could go wrong but I'd like to think it won't. All depends on what post Secret Wars X-Men turns out to be but I've seen a lot of positive reaction on gay sites and tumblr and that from gay teens so I'm going with the positives for now. quote:He did. And this is projecting on Bendis but there are gay characters in X-Men, he's created new gay characters himself throughout the years. Changing an established household name character like Bobby means there is a well known X character that won't disappear that is gay. There's a reason it's one of the original five and not a different X-character Because he couldn't have bit the bullet and have Kitty come out, could he? That would at least make sense and the subtext has been there for years, not to mention she's more popular than Bobby. But I guess that'd get in the way of having her hook up with Star-Lord or whatever.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:21
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I really don't get Bendis sometime. I'll reserve my judgment until I can read the full story but it seems like it would be a way better choice to make Magik lesbian if he wanted to make a 'classic' character homosexual since that would both make sense and not cause a ton of questions.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:22
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It could just be that modern iceman is bisexual or otherwise closeted and any mind-readers who have been inside his head have the common loving courtesy to not out him without his permission, gently caress you jean grey and your whole mindreading-without-permission gimmick
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Apr 21, 2015 14:23
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Kelp Plankton posted:It could just be that modern iceman is bisexual or otherwise closeted and any mind-readers who have been inside his head have the common loving courtesy to not out him without his permission, gently caress you jean grey and your whole mindreading-without-permission gimmick Bendis sure writes beloved female characters well.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:27
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Yvonmukluk posted:Well I've seen at least one individual disagree (I'm holding off on posting it until the issue is actually released, though). And they already established the ANXM are in fact the past versions back in BotA, remember? Another situation where bisexuality would fix everything? You don't say! I've also seen a lot of disagreement within the lgbt comics fan community such as it is. I'm in the wait-and-see camp myself.
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Apr 21, 2015 14:28
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