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Ambi posted:I thought this was the whole purview of the Cell level of play, roughly similar to Street level games of Unknown Armies? Cells don't get endowments afaik, are generally sprung up around a specific cause or small group of people, and then go on from there. Not everything necessarily needs to play at the Compact or Conspiracy level in order for it to be a Real Hunter Gametm. As far as I'm aware, cell-level play is basically WoD Mortals with access to the Profession Merit (and probably one or two other merits that escape me at the moment). Maybe you start with more XP to spend? I forget. The Profession Merit is pretty strong, but it's still just a merit. And my point isn't that he's gaming wrong or anything; indeed, he ISN'T gaming, that's why he made the post, and what I'm saying is maybe the reason none of his friends want to play Hunter is because they have this misapprehension that Hunter is entirely about cell-level or Union compact play, when that's really not the full game at all. Hunter both provides cool powers and the ability to not die when you get shot (with caveats to both). But not if you're playing it street-level without endowments, which was his pitch. It doesn't sound like a system fit problem but an expectations problem.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:57
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Crion posted:As far as I'm aware, cell-level play is basically WoD Mortals with access to the Profession Merit (and probably one or two other merits that escape me at the moment). Maybe you start with more XP to spend? I forget. The Profession Merit is pretty strong, but it's still just a merit. And my point isn't that he's gaming wrong or anything; indeed, he ISN'T gaming, that's why he made the post, and what I'm saying is maybe the reason none of his friends want to play Hunter is because they have this misapprehension that Hunter is entirely about cell-level or Union compact play, when that's really not the full game at all. Hunter both provides cool powers and the ability to not die when you get shot (with caveats to both). But not if you're playing it street-level without endowments, which was his pitch. It doesn't sound like a system problem but an expectations problem. You also get risking willpower, practical experience, and Tactics in tier one. You can also use The Code, it's optional but why the hell wouldn't you, it's a great story tool.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:01
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You get access to the WP-risking mechanic that no one ever remembers. I can't wait for the inevitable Hunter 2e, by the way, so we can get cleaned up compacts/conspiracies (some of 'em really need it) and a reworked take on the Code to handle Integrity.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:01
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I think you're thinking of Apocalypse, which more or less was. That's unfair, crude racial stereotypes went far beyond big chief sitting wolf, the Celts were drunk and magic, the Eastern ones where evil ruthless scumbags and the Germanic ones where nazis. Not to mention the 90's hokey mysticism.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:02
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There should be a game of TFV characters who are the judge, clerk, prosecutor, and the single court-appointed defense attorney of the ultra-secret United States Court of Appeals for the Fourteenth Circuit.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:03
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Mors Rattus posted:You get access to the WP-risking mechanic that no one ever remembers. I can't wait for the inevitable Hunter 2e, by the way, so we can get cleaned up compacts/conspiracies (some of 'em really need it) and a reworked take on the Code to handle Integrity. The amount of off-brand repeat-of-corebook-concept conspiracies/compacts hanging around (Ashwood Abbey's Bear Lodge/Hunt Club is easily most the most blatant, but the X-Files Family could do with cleaning up too) is actually kind of startling when you look at it Crion fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 21:05
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Zombiejack posted:That's unfair, crude racial stereotypes went far beyond big chief sitting wolf, the Celts were drunk and magic, the Eastern ones where evil ruthless scumbags and the Germanic ones where nazis. Not to mention the 90's hokey mysticism. TBH I kind of want to play a Black Fury game where the party has to seal an ancient portal into a realm of pure madness, the dreaded "Gamer's Gate."
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Apr 21, 2015 21:05
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Crion posted:The amount of off-brand repeat corebook conspiracies/compacts hanging around (Ashwood Abbey's Bear Lodge/Hunt Club is easily most the most blatant, but the X-Files Family could do with cleaning up too) is actually kind of startling when you look at it In fairness, were I tasked with it I would replace Ashwood entirely with the Bear Lodge.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:06
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Luminous Obscurity posted:TBH I kind of want to play a Black Fury game where the party has to seal an ancient portal into a realm of pure madness, the dreaded "Gamer's Gate." Or fight an evil worker ant.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:06
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:There should be a game of TFV characters who are the judge, clerk, prosecutor, and the single court-appointed defense attorney of the ultra-secret United States Court of Appeals for the Fourteenth Circuit. It was really inconsiderate of them to not just stop at the Twelfth Circuit, when you think about it
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Apr 21, 2015 21:10
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Ambi posted:I thought this was the whole purview of the Cell level of play, roughly similar to Street level games of Unknown Armies? Cells don't get endowments afaik, are generally sprung up around a specific cause or small group of people, and then go on from there. Not everything necessarily needs to play at the Compact or Conspiracy level in order for it to be a Real Hunter Gametm. Basically this. I've basically only ever played it at Cell level into really early stages of compacts. At that point the only thing that separates you from regular mortals is you think you're prepared to look into the abyss. Mechanically, at Cell level even if you don't have the endowments you still have an edge on regular mortals since you've got Willpower risking, practical experience/beats/tactics and your hunter specific merits. You don't have the backup of a Compact or Conspiracy and you're not really sure how deep the supernatural rabbit hole goes. If poo poo goes bad you have no backup, almost non-existent support structures, and everyone you know and love becomes a potential target for counter attacks. Knowing this, you have no option to proceed anyways, because your cell is the only one that knows that old man Willhelm is an Elder Vampire who gets his jollies torturing his victims before he ends the lives of the victim and anyone the victim has ever held dear and HE'S SEEN YOUR FACE. On top of this, any victory you have is pyrrhic because even if you do ash him, his progeny will come to avenge him and they come hungry. I'm also fully prepared to state that my gaming group probably just isn't the sort that would dig into Cell level hunter or even core nWoD, since they veer more toward powergamer mindsets. Why be a pack of shotgun wielding normies when you can pop super vampire strength and throw a manhole cover like a frisbee and punch through a wall like the kool-aid man.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:19
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Crion posted:It was really inconsiderate of them to not just stop at the Twelfth Circuit, when you think about it Naming new ones gets tricky anyways because you have 1-11, then DC, then the Federal Circuit so you're either at 12 or 14, maybe in the backstory of this game it would turn out that there had been other previous Courts established for paranormal affairs but they were disbanded and the names abandoned for Some Reason. who fuckin knows I'm just throwing poo poo at the wall here
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Apr 21, 2015 21:26
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:There should be a game of TFV characters who are the judge, clerk, prosecutor, and the single court-appointed defense attorney of the ultra-secret United States Court of Appeals for the Fourteenth Circuit. There's the Barrett Comission.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:55
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Luminous Obscurity posted:TBH I kind of want to play a Black Fury game where the party has to seal an ancient portal into a realm of pure madness, the dreaded "Gamer's Gate." considering the 'interesting' rants I've seen on various RPG forums and 20th editions digs at Anon it wouldn't surprise me if this came up somewhere somehow. The Anon section was embarrassing enough so why not? ah yes black furies, oWoD loved its girls only groups. I remember one of the big issues the Werewolves had was breeding issues. Such as say.....only accepting one gender. I would have liked this tribe better if they'd been matriarchal rather than stupid.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:06
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Ormi posted:Powerful shadowy organizations pulling experienced monster hunters into their employ is cool. I like Cheiron, and I think TF:V and The Ascending Ones would work as that with minor tweaking. The general idea behind Conspiracies is sound, but they're too disconnected from the other tiers, I only remember throwaway lines about how they started off "just like you!" in the distant past, if that. They kind of revise the "why" of the Vigil. Malleus isn't about playing a Hunter who discovers and practices her Vigil on her own terms as it is about playing an Endowed agent of the Catholic Church. And they're all kind of like that. Compacts are more about the "how", and still feel organically connected to tier one even if some of them get left out in the cold in terms of support for what they do. Man, the Conspiracies are all about shucking off the idea that you're an ordinary human defending other humans, except the one that's all about couriering between monsters and the one that's about being Spirit-Claimed. Like, when you think about what VASCU is really testing for, it's drat disturbing.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:09
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Wait, what is VASCU testing for if not psychic potential?
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Apr 21, 2015 22:21
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PantsOptional posted:Wait, what is VASCU testing for if not psychic potential? Teleinformatics began as a program for better profiling of slashers. Testing for the Wintergreen Process tests how well you can think like a slasher. Which is heavily implied throughout the VASCU section.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:36
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Effectronica posted:Teleinformatics began as a program for better profiling of slashers. Testing for the Wintergreen Process tests how well you can think like a slasher. Which is heavily implied throughout the VASCU section. What's a slasher? Are there yet more magic serial killers in WoD?
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Apr 21, 2015 22:45
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Different Tiers and groups call for different tones. This is one of the strengths of World of Darkness games, you can do various levels of horrific or gritty or whatever depending on who or what you're playing. On the flipside, it's why Promethean is so hard to play, part of why Geist crapped out, and one of the things that's worrying me about Beast. Now what the hell happened to Effectronica's avatar? Night10194 posted:What's a slasher? Are there yet more magic serial killers in WoD? Short answer: Very yes. Slashers are horror movie villains.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:49
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Crion posted:The amount of off-brand repeat-of-corebook-concept conspiracies/compacts hanging around (Ashwood Abbey's Bear Lodge/Hunt Club is easily most the most blatant, but the X-Files Family could do with cleaning up too) is actually kind of startling when you look at it While this is true in large strokes I will shank you if you try to get rid of the Barrett Commission or VASCU because both of them own bones. As has been said, one of the greatest things I love about nHunter is that there's so much room for scope and tone shifts. Cell/Compact/Conspiracy allows you to tweak the level of empowerment you've got as a baseline, and the sorts of themes you want to deal with, while tonally there's honestly room for anything between the most bone-chillingly bleak meditations on the inevitability of death and monstrosity to taking a break from fighting supernatural PMCs to play some sick guitar riffs as a squadron of F-16s shoot down the private jet of a scheming vampire mastermind as a superimposed American flag waves. Night10194 posted:What's a slasher? Are there yet more magic serial killers in WoD? Yes, though they're some of the most literal encapsulations of the idea. Slashers are effectively serial killers who get so good at killing that it's a form of supernatural prowess, through unknown means (and every Compact/Conspiracy has their own explanation). They effectively embody the archetypes of serial killers in cultural myth and popular media - the avenging victim, the mindless, mute killing machine, the sociopathic charmer, the amoral genius, and the like. They start as Rippers, where their prowess is basically just being really, really good at killing people, and if they are active long enough, had some sort of experience with supernatural stuff before (cough cough HUNTERS cough), or through other unknown factors, become Scourges, where no reasonable explanation can explain the poo poo they can pull off. For instance, the Jason-style killers, Brutes/Masks, eventually become so unstoppably tough that they can only take a single point of damage from any attack, no matter how many successes it got. It is outright stated that most Hunters are doomed to become Slashers if they operate long enough because of the poo poo that the Vigil does to their minds (and souls, in some cases). A Hunter who's changed their moral views with the Code enough are more or less indistinguishable from a lot of Slashers anyway.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:54
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There is no splat that cannot be used to play serial killers, but some are more serial killer-y than others. Hunter was probably the most until we got Beast, though Werewolf was conceivably up there too.Daeren posted:While this is true in large strokes I will shank you if you try to get rid of the Barrett Commission or VASCU because both of them own bones. Yeah, they're not bad, they're just kinda redundant. It's not impossible to imagine a world where TF:V, Barrett Commission, VASCU and Division Six all exist, but it is tough to imagine them all being distinct, independent of, and presumably secret from each other. Retreading ground like that crowds out the potential for good new ideas. But then, when given that opportunity we got the Buffy compact and the Bioshock conspiracy, so. Crion fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 22:55
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Effectronica posted:Man, the Conspiracies are all about shucking off the idea that you're an ordinary human defending other humans, except the one that's all about couriering between monsters and the one that's about being Spirit-Claimed. Like, when you think about what VASCU is really testing for, it's drat disturbing. But conversely, the VASCU is the FBI. Like ok, you'll have to deal with some crazy magic poo poo, but you'll be trying to put it into jail. You are a real agent, you have a real badge. And again, it's magic jail, but jail. And sometimes it's some crazy rear end mutant that is eating people and making clothes out of their skin and you have to put it down, but it's never really the objective. You'll do paperwork about it, and you'll have to deal with assholes at TFV taking over cases, and you are in all ways just a 'regular' agent. And a lot of the time you'll just get roped into regular everyday cases. And it's somewhat of an open secret what you do at the FBI, and wider agencies and local law enforcement know if you have an....interesting case this is who you call. In so many ways their job is really only as disturbing as people that have to deal with regular serial killers and kidnapping cases, which isn't exactly a picnic. It is to some degree the most "life goes on" of all the Hunter groups, because things like the Union are inherently carrying on with a level of vigilantism. The system can't deal with your problems, or the system is co-opted by the problem, and you take it into your hands to get the job done. The VASCU is the magic police. They are magic, they deal with magic, and as best as they can without causing mass hysteria they just...do their job. It is in many ways the most terrifying thing the monsters can imaging happening when they think of humans finding out. Witch hunts and insanity and some grand conflict is romantic in a lot of ways. What if everyone found out what you were and didn't care? What if you weren't some grand gothic monster, you were just some weird sex pervert they put in a cell? Like you aren't mythic, you are a case number and a short bitching session about how they hate flying into Denver, and then you are totally forgotten. When the guys that can literally copy every aspect of your mind to question at will don't know a lot about your grand societies because it honestly doesn't help that much for dealing with the crimes you commit.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:00
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Boogaleeboo posted:But conversely, the VASCU is the FBI. Like ok, you'll have to deal with some crazy magic poo poo, but you'll be trying to put it into jail. You are a real agent, you have a real badge. And again, it's magic jail, but jail. And sometimes it's some crazy rear end mutant that is eating people and making clothes out of their skin and you have to put it down, but it's never really the objective. You'll do paperwork about it, and you'll have to deal with assholes at TFV taking over cases, and you are in all ways just a 'regular' agent. And a lot of the time you'll just get roped into regular everyday cases. And it's somewhat of an open secret what you do at the FBI, and wider agencies and local law enforcement know if you have an....interesting case this is who you call. In so many ways their job is really only as disturbing as people that have to deal with regular serial killers and kidnapping cases, which isn't exactly a picnic. Paging Ronwayne to the thread to talk about his former Hunter PC that is exactly this, to the letter and it was the greatest thing, especially because he was stuck with a pack of sketchy vigilante murderhobos (and literal hobos)
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Apr 21, 2015 23:05
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Between Scarecrow ministry members, Gentry, Slashers, Beasts, Predator Kings and pretty much any Vampire with a lovely attitude are their any actual human serial killers in WoD? Some guy who hates women because he was locked in a basement as a boy?
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Apr 21, 2015 23:06
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Kavak posted:On the flipside, it's why Promethean is so hard to play, part of why Geist crapped out, and one of the things that's worrying me about Beast. I am sorry, I can't quite follow the cause-effect relationships between those and the adaptability of WoD. Could you elaborate?
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Apr 21, 2015 23:11
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You don't need special rules to have John Wayne Gacy in a game.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:11
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Yeah, it's easy to forget that monsters of all kinds are pretty rare even in the nWoD, it's just what we have all these rules for because they're what the game is about.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:14
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Zombiejack posted:Between Scarecrow ministry members, Gentry, Slashers, Beasts, Predator Kings and pretty much any Vampire with a lovely attitude are their any actual human serial killers in WoD? Some guy who hates women because he was locked in a basement as a boy? Of course there are. Not every permutation of every idea exists in every game but I think the WoD would lose something if you didn't have just, regular-rear end humans doing things, good or bad.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:16
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My assumption is there are fewer mortal serial killers than there might otherwise be simply by dint of some of them becoming supernatural serial killers and others getting taken out by Hunters who either misapprehended them as their targets or viewed them as competition. Supernaturals sort of turn serial killing from a cottage industry into a fully-developed sector of the WoD human economy. Like if you actually are running a WoD where all splats are simultaneously present and simultaneously true where they don't conflict, you're running a game in a world that only looks like ours because looking like our world is one of the pre-conditions for its existence. Crion fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 23:16
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There is the other question of 'if someone is stalking, kidnapping and ritually murdering young women in your neighborhood, does it really matter what flavor of humanoid they are?'
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Apr 21, 2015 23:17
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Crion posted:Yeah, they're not bad, they're just kinda redundant. It's not impossible to imagine a world where TF:V, Barrett Commission, VASCU and Division Six all exist, but it is tough to imagine them all being distinct, independent of, and presumably secret from each other. You seem to have a great deal more faith in the efficiency of the US government/military than I do. (Serious answer is that much like bloodlines/lodges/Legacies you're not necessarily meant to assume that every single compact/conspiracy actually exists in your version of the WoD. If your game doesn't benefit from the federal government being riddled with various and contradictory groups of secret monster hunters, then those groups don't all co-exist.)
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Apr 21, 2015 23:18
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GimpInBlack posted:You seem to have a great deal more faith in the efficiency of the US government/military than I do. Certainly. But I can already get to Division Six or the Bear Lodge quite easily on my own if I've got the corebook -- "a TF:V subdivision for mages;" "a non-hideous Abbey chapter that goes after werewolves" -- and I'd rather see more stuff like the cult awareness group that has no martial presence to speak of and exists primarily to rehab rescued blood-dolls/ghouls. But then, even those guys are kind of a vampire-themed Talbot Group.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:23
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Crion posted:Yeah, they're not bad, they're just kinda redundant. It's not impossible to imagine a world where TF:V, Barrett Commission, VASCU and Division Six all exist, but it is tough to imagine them all being distinct, independent of, and presumably secret from each other. Retreading ground like that crowds out the potential for good new ideas. But then, when given that opportunity we got the Buffy compact and the Bioshock conspiracy, so. VASCU and VALKYRIE are very aware each other, at least, and the VASCU write-up even states that you can file for transfer between them. VASCU hates TF:V because they trample in, shoot everything, and don't even fill out the paperwork, and most of TF:V thinks VASCU are a bunch of nutjobs. Division Six are weird and I've never been sure how to use them in the game. The idea of a completely fake MIB organization is cool in theory, but the book kind of adopts a sneering "look at these idiots" tone to it that makes it hard to imagine putting the players in them.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:23
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The joke is that they're the Technocracy. That's it. That's the entire joke.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:24
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Kavak posted:Now what the hell happened to Effectronica's avatar?
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Apr 21, 2015 23:32
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Zombiejack posted:Between Scarecrow ministry members, Gentry, Slashers, Beasts, Predator Kings and pretty much any Vampire with a lovely attitude are their any actual human serial killers in WoD? Some guy who hates women because he was locked in a basement as a boy? Not only do you not need special rules or a special book for this, but if you decide you want a book, again: this is Slasher. Like, the scourges, okay, those start to get into deformed mutants whose hills have eyes and masked, senseless unpeople who just won't die. But rippers are meant in part to represent just normal humans who've become rotten and horrible killers. There's intentional ambiguity (and it might vary from killer to killer) whether there's any kind of supernatural influence involved in the creation of rippers, whether there's some influence producing the ripper phenomenon or whether there really isn't any such thing as a "ripper phenomenon" in the first place, just a name some hunters put to maladjusted and dangerous people to distance themselves from the human element when fighting back.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:38
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Zombiejack posted:Between Scarecrow ministry members, Gentry, Slashers, Beasts, Predator Kings and pretty much any Vampire with a lovely attitude are their any actual human serial killers in WoD? Some guy who hates women because he was locked in a basement as a boy? Scarecrow Ministry aren't really serial killers,t hough. They're supposed to make you believe in serial killers and be extra scared and extra careful so that you're safe from them. Which is a really cool idea for a faction, I think.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:41
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Tulul posted:Division Six are weird and I've never been sure how to use them in the game. The idea of a completely fake MIB organization is cool in theory, but the book kind of adopts a sneering "look at these idiots" tone to it that makes it hard to imagine putting the players in them. I'm not really seeing this tone, unless you're talking about the character art for them, which, yeah, not super flattering and not what I would have gone with. The actual text presents them as competent agents who just happen to be, through a series of cutouts and compromised agents, to be taking orders from the people they're supposed to be fighting against. I don't think that makes them idiots, it makes them prime candidates for a game inspired by Three Days of the Condor or any of the Bourne movies.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:45
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Yeah, keep in mind that the supplemental splats only really work most of the time when their targets are a major part of the game. Some of them can be generalized all right, but most can't.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:58
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Poor Division Six is such a knock off TFV. TFV is a secret government group taking orders from vampires. Division Six is....a secret government group taking orders from Mages. Ok, I don't know how massively different that is beyond actively putting a name to who is running them. All we really get is "Some vampires" for TFV. I guess D6 puts a specificity to who has co-opted you. In comparison the Barrett Commission has a very specific purview: A lot of monsters, mostly vampires, like co-opting the bureaucracy to work for them. This is actually way more hosed up and destructive than turning into a bat or making someone do what you want with a creepy stare. Shouldn't someone that knows about them be focusing on stopping that sort of thing? Well here we are. And the VASCU is just cops. And sure, their boss probably isn't something human, but he works really hard and doesn't seem to give them crazy orders. They aren't waging a secret war with high tech weapons and trying to convince people a dragon attack was swamp gas reflected off light from Venus as a secret government test plane flew overhead. Honestly at the end of the day there's more thematically interesting ground with the idea of "The government trying to function in the face of monsters" than "Black ops hit squads". What does the black ops kill squad do? Gee I don't know, kill poo poo and cover it up? What do you do when you realize the zoning commission is in the pocket of Big Fang? Um.....drat, what do you do?
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Apr 22, 2015 00:01
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