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I would put Ascension a few levels above Star Realms on the list of RNG fuckery. Star Realms is really straightforward and the choices are usually pretty obvious, but Ascension with the various expansions has a lot more room for synergy and decision making that can lead to a different experience. It's not as linear and I think that downplays the RNG effect. With my Carc example, how many turns do you draw a dead tile and just place it arbitrarily? That's my least favorite thing in that game, at least if you have a bad row in Ascension there are plenty of ways to banish cards or buy a cheap one to hope for a better one next, etc. Your deck building can directly negate the RNG fuckery, and I think that's one of the more fun aspects of it.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:14
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Market row deckbuilders are also inherently less replayable. There are N-choose-10 setups in Dominion; there is only one setup in Ascension. That's not true, Ascension comes with 100 market cards, and those market cards are shuffled and come out in a random order. With 100 cards there is 9.332622157 possible set-ups in the form of the order the cards come out.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:14
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jmzero posted:1. You can fit a lot more unique cards in a box - an average market deckbuilder might have as many unique cards as Dominion with a couple expansions. If you're creating a theme driven game, you could legitimately want a lot of unique cards to explore your theme. I personally consider all of these very serious flaws.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:17
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Current thread darling Eminent Domain uses a single deck for part of its mechanics (the planet deck), but has ways of mitigating that randomness and it isn't the only means of advancing toward a win state.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:26
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Countblanc posted:Current thread darling Eminent Domain uses a single deck for part of its mechanics (the planet deck), but has ways of mitigating that randomness and it isn't the only means of advancing toward a win state.  Mage Knight has 3 market rows! (and arguably the monsters are another market row)
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Apr 21, 2015 19:29
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Rutibex posted:
It has rows of cards, but they aren't really a market, since there is no resource involved in getting to them, at least only in a pretty indirect way. Either way, all the cards in a given row "cost" the same and are roughly of equal use (depending on your build), which makes it different. Also, you shouldn't play competitive Mage Knight anyway, so screwing each other is less of an issue.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:37
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Rutes is right, though. Mage Knight has multiple market rows but the difference is that they aren't the dominant play mechanic. I always like to verbalize the differences between pre-decision and post-decision randomness. Randomness is good for games! It is a reliable way of providing variation between experiences. However, that's literally all it does-- it makes each game different, a grain at a time. Pre-decision randomness puts players in different, interesting situations they may not have willingly encountered and asking them to make new choices, essentially adding agency. Post-decision randomness causes the effects of choices to be distanced from the player, sometimes to the point of undoing choices altogether, essentially removing agency. "Aggravated" market parades are terribly implemented pre-decision randomness. You have a choice of things to do, what a steal! However, more often than not, the choice is false due to poor or no playtesting or simply an overly ambitious market deck. EmiDo's market deck isn't like the others-- planets are a specific and well-tuned cog in the machine, and you won't find random technologies or role cards in the planet deck. Through the Ages is similar, separating Civil cards from Military cards even if each deck still has too much variety to be properly split up among the players over 2 hours. Additionally, the "aggravated" part of the parade is due to the fact that cards in Ascension are revealed immediately when available, allowing for no planning of any kind. Through the Ages has an alternative approach which causes cards to be more expensive when revealed. A common houserule for Ascension was to have 2 parades, 1 as the real parade and 1 as a preview of what would go into the real parade when purchases were made. Big thing? It's a stupid loving crutch. Anybody can make a lovely Ascension clone with a big deck of crazy stuff and you buy cards. It's easy to make and it's not good design. It's like roll-to-hit; uncreative idiots throw it into their games because they don't know how to make or mod their own combat mechanics worth a drat. And then, when somebody criticizes you, you can just strawman them into not liking any random elements whatsoever. By the by, Carcassonne doesn't have truly dead tiles as claimed. The entire point of Carc is aggressively using tiles to put your opponent into unplayable situations. Carc doesn't have a perfectly balanced bag, but complaining that bad tile draws are an overwhelming problem is like complaining about throws in fighting games.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:58
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Heh. Rutes. Rutie-pie. Rutibetuti.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:59
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BonHair posted:It has rows of cards, but they aren't really a market, since there is no resource involved in getting to them, at least only in a pretty indirect way. Either way, all the cards in a given row "cost" the same and are roughly of equal use (depending on your build), which makes it different. Also, you shouldn't play competitive Mage Knight anyway, so screwing each other is less of an issue. The units cost different amounts, you generally need to spend resources (influence at least, usually move) to buy them, and once gold unit cards are introduced vary wildly in how useful they are. Rutibex posted:
The monastery advanced action row makes 4! esquilax fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 19:59
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Hey, Rutibex, have you thought of spreading out spell and purchase decks in Talisman to create a market row?
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Apr 21, 2015 20:09
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Lichtenstein posted:Hey, Rutibex, have you thought of spreading out spell and purchase decks in Talisman to create a market row? No that's a terrible idea! The spells in Talisman are highly unbalanced, doing that would make wizard types far too powerful. However it would work wonders in Pathfinder Adventure Cards  Broken Loose posted:Heh. Rutes. Rutie-pie. Rutibetuti. I don't know what your on, but can I have some? 
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Apr 21, 2015 20:29
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Rutibex posted:I don't know what your on, but can I have some? I'm in a constant state of zen brought on by an adrenaline high, massive amounts of hypnosis, and a series of terrifying tragedies. I can help you achieve it but I will charge for it. edit: In true Ascension fashion, the next person who asks me, I'll just offer to give them a bag of crippy for free.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:48
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esquilax posted:The units cost different amounts, you generally need to spend resources (influence at least, usually move) to buy them, and once gold unit cards are introduced vary wildly in how useful they are. I forgot about units! I was only thinking of spells and advanced actions (and artefacts, but that was me being stupid). There is some random market screwiness to units, especially if the philosopher-general is hiring. But it's still not all that bad, because it's coop and also there is so much else going on.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:49
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Broken Loose posted:I'm in a constant state of zen brought on by an adrenaline high, massive amounts of hypnosis, and a series of terrifying tragedies. I can help you achieve it but I will charge for it. Hey can I have some drugs? You're closer to colombia than me or rutibex
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Apr 21, 2015 21:05
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Lord Frisk posted:Hey can I have some drugs? You're closer to colombia than me or rutibex I have a pouch of Mad Hatter you can have, but it's like 3 years old. Can you drive to Orlando?
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Apr 21, 2015 21:07
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The OP is good and recommended some great games that I will be buying in the future. Thanks goons!
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Apr 21, 2015 21:09
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Oh poo poo, where are you in Orlando? Let's play some games man!
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Apr 21, 2015 21:09
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As far as board game poo poo goes, I'm super hyped about Scythe, a worker placement area control game from Stonemaier Games, noted good game makers. It's set in an alternate universe Eastern Europe during the 1920's and giant mechs have ostensibly taken the place of tanks. Whole cavalry regiments and poo poo backed up by a smoking iron behemoth. Stonemaier describes the game as "Agricola meets Kemet". It oughta be kick starting this summer, which sucks, because kickstarter, but apparently that's the only way to get Stonemaier games anyway. Really though, I'm mostly hyped about the art direction. It's all done by Jakub Rozalski, who paints these awesome stark Russian agrarian scenes punctuated by a giant death robot. 
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Apr 21, 2015 21:16
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So, I think I understand why there are market parade deck builders. I think they are close to the situation where you top deck a wrath of god at exactly the right moment, or pull some unbelievable bomb in a magic booster draft. Or get pocket aces in a game of poker where you are outmatched. Sometimes, people just want their opponents to be struck by lightning. It can also make these games feel like slot machines, where you just pull the lever over and over and occasionally you get a jackpot. What's more curious to me is why we haven't seen a deckbuilder that has things previously mentioned like auctions or dutch auctions or the other various things that people have used in action drafting or markets in traditional games to assert some internal balance. It seems like there is some unexplored design space here. Also, I wonder how Ascension would play if you just took 50 cards and laid them all out in the market at once. Sort of like a Magic booster draft. It would be interesting if you could counter various strategies that you see other people pushing by drafting the few interactive monster effects. I have a hunch it would turn into a problem with predetermined 'Winning' strategies based on a tiering of cards since there is so little interaction between cards, but it might still be interesting if the market was randomized. And there is a little bit of an interaction between tempo of various strategies and some soft counters in the monster post-death effects.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:17
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Bottom Liner posted:Oh poo poo, where are you in Orlando? Let's play some games man! I live next to Fashion Square. I might go to Coolstuff on Wednesday if I get bored enough. PM me and we'll exchange contact info.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:23
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Lord Frisk posted:As far as board game poo poo goes, I'm super hyped about Scythe, a worker placement area control game from Stonemaier Games, noted good game makers. It's set in an alternate universe Eastern Europe during the 1920's and giant mechs have ostensibly taken the place of tanks. Whole cavalry regiments and poo poo backed up by a smoking iron behemoth. Their descriptions of engine building combined with Kemet's aggression and speed of play have got me absolutely stoked. I can't wait for this game, and that art really is gorgeous.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:25
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Lord Frisk posted:Stonemaier describes the game as "Agricola meets Kemet". It oughta be kick starting this summer, which sucks, because kickstarter, but apparently that's the only way to get Stonemaier games anyway. Stonemaier is pretty much the only thing I ever kickstart anymore, and I've never been disappointed with anything I've gotten from them. Jamey is a really cool dude and if you're interested in the game I think you can kickstart it pretty safely and confidently.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:26
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Aerox posted:Stonemaier is pretty much the only thing I ever kickstart anymore, and I've never been disappointed with anything I've gotten from them. I don't doubt their ability to deliver product, it's just disappointing that KS seems to be the only reliable channel to get their games. High quality components and limited print runs make their stuff hard to find for reasonable prices on the open market.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:29
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Broken Loose posted:I live next to Fashion Square. I might go to Coolstuff on Wednesday if I get bored enough. PM me and we'll exchange contact info. Cool, my wife and I were going to check it out too, I don't have PMs but just email me defeldus@gmail.com
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Apr 21, 2015 21:30
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Lord Frisk posted:I don't doubt their ability to deliver product, it's just disappointing that KS seems to be the only reliable channel to get their games. High quality components and limited print runs make their stuff hard to find for reasonable prices on the open market. Amazon still has a few copies of Viticulture, Tuscany, and Euphoria all for only a few bucks more than the original Kickstarter price, with Prime shipping, if you're looking for any of those.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:33
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So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. It seriously is that easy, I just need some good non-Agricola games.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:33
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Holy poo poo, Winged Hussars and giant mechs, I need to keep an eye on this.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:38
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Lord Frisk posted:I don't doubt their ability to deliver product, it's just disappointing that KS seems to be the only reliable channel to get their games. Does this mean something different from what I think it means? Viticulture Tuscany Euphoria Treasure Chest  Edit: I'm assuming you're American, if not, then yeah you're probably boned.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:39
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ChiTownEddie posted:So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. I'd go with Stone Age or Viticulture -- both have unique, light themes and are solid WP games, but aren't so overwhelming that they're inaccessible to newer board gamers.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:39
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GrandpaPants posted:Does this mean something different from what I think it means? I was basing my (incorrect) statement from the last time I went looking for Euphoria. I guess they got another print run in the hands of retailers. The last time I had checked I couldn't find a copy for under $100.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:42
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ChiTownEddie posted:So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. Maybe something like Lords of Waterdeep or Dungeon Lords? Both have worker placement but have less 'euro-y' themes. Also, Caverna is very similar to Agricola (or so I'm told).
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Apr 21, 2015 21:58
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Dungeon Lords is pretty harsh and unfair to new players, so inexperienced boardgamers might be a bit scared off. Although if they played and like Dungeon Keeper on the PC, you can never go wrong with it.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:07
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ChiTownEddie posted:So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. Vlaada is a good choice. Dungeon Petz? I played Dungeon Lords with some complexity-averse people and they really enjoyed it, although no one went into a death spiral.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:11
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Lord Frisk posted:As far as board game poo poo goes, I'm super hyped about Scythe, a worker placement area control game from Stonemaier Games, noted good game makers. It's set in an alternate universe Eastern Europe during the 1920's and giant mechs have ostensibly taken the place of tanks. Whole cavalry regiments and poo poo backed up by a smoking iron behemoth. I am super pumped for this too. I really, really like Viticulture, I've back B2C, and this looks pretty great, and the mechanics sound interesting as well. I might well wind up signing up to playtest.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:22
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fozzy fosbourne posted:So, I think I understand why there are market parade deck builders. I think they are close to the situation where you top deck a wrath of god at exactly the right moment, or pull some unbelievable bomb in a magic booster draft. Or get pocket aces in a game of poker where you are outmatched. Sometimes, people just want their opponents to be struck by lightning. It can also make these games feel like slot machines, where you just pull the lever over and over and occasionally you get a jackpot. Frankly, I think they have a similar appeal to Solitaire (the MS Windows kind), or lighter ameritrash games: some people just want to sit down and chill while loving around without much effort put into thinking. I've downloaded the PC version of Star Realms just to see what goons keep bitching about and it's a 100% cellphone poopbreak game, it just might be less noticeable when presented in cardboard form.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:29
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To be fair, the 5 expansions for Star Realms do add a lot more variety and interaction, but it's still below Ascension (with expansions) in terms of complexity.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:32
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Yeah, I think Ascension is actually a Really Good iPhone Pooping App. In addition to pooping, you can also futz around with it while listening to a podcast or in the back of a car while talking about poo poo, etc. I haven't tried simultaneously pooping, talking, and listening to podcasts while playing it though, ymmv There's also some degree of skill in the game, too, since I've played a ton of async games with coworkers a few years ago and mostly wrecked their poo poo I just can't get into playing it in person.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:35
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ChiTownEddie posted:So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. 
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Apr 21, 2015 22:42
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Rutibex posted:However it would work wonders in Pathfinder Adventure Cards With the slight side effect that your players will get bored and give up the game because they picked up the best spells immediately and 20 missions later are still using the same deck. Giving up Pathfinder Adventure Cards is probably for the best though.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:55
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ChiTownEddie posted:So if my friends don't seem to shy away from more complex games, but have preconceived notions about Agricola that basically make it impossible for me to get them to try it...what euro/wp type game would you guys recommend. I quite like Viticulture! I just played it tonight. Its Tuscany expansion is also possibly one of the best expansions of all time. It's a worker placement game about winemaking with all the usual worker placement style trimmings, but without being insulting to your intelligence (ala Lords of Waterdeep). It'll take the first few rounds for everyone to get their heads around how everything works together, but it's good stuff once they do.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:32
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