|
Waterhaul posted:The thing with this as well is (i'm pretty sure) no post Secret Wars X books or creative teams have been announced. So with the exception of Bendis nose diving things in the next issue or someone dealing with it during Secret Wars it really is a wait and see thing.
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
There's actually a reasonable number of gay, bi, queer secondary X-Men already, whether it's new characters or characters who've been around a while...like, more than eight or nine, which is (heh) uncanny given usual ratios. For pretty obvious reasons, the X-Men are the one long-running, mainstream team in Marvel or DC that have tended to barrel forward with this stuff. It also helps to have roughly ten thousand characters in the rosters, I suppose. Still, as was mentioned, there's a big difference between a gay secondary character shuffled within the backgrounds of books and a gay main, iconic character being prominent and unmissable as a core aspect of the mythos. Anole and Karma will probably never appear on Google news, will not be portrayed in films, will not be playable in video games...more's the pity. Iceman can and will do all those things and more. It's a retcon, there's no getting around it. It's not a "revelation," it's a big fat discounting of various existing (if negligible) storylines. Prep yourselves right now for the inevitable "reveal" of Bobby's parents as not only mutantphobic but homophobic as well, and how Xavier knew all along, and so on and so forth. But then, those sorts of things are completely old hat for comics at this point; frankly, I couldn't care less about it being a retcon if it's handled well, which is going to be the crux of everything. hope and vaseline posted:Man, Aguirre-Sacasa has a way more varied output than I thought, I had no idea he was involved with Archie and Looking was a drat good show. Deadpool posted:I don't think Bendis will be following up anything. Isn't tomorrow his last issue? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
"maybe he couldn't handle being a mutant and gay in a society that had issues with both. And one is easier to 'put away' than the other." is a remarkably remarkably stupid phrase no matter what the rest of the thing turns out to be. Yes, your sexuality is easier to put away than your ability to turn into an ice-man.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:38
|
|
|
This is going to be way easier to talk about tomorrow. I just saw some of the panels on tumblr and yeesh. What a way to handle that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:44
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:"maybe he couldn't handle being a mutant and gay in a society that had issues with both. And one is easier to 'put away' than the other." is a remarkably remarkably stupid phrase no matter what the rest of the thing turns out to be. Yes, your sexuality is easier to put away than your ability to turn into an ice-man. .. It kind of is? I mean, I've been in the closet for going on 16 years now, for a number of reasons. It's not healthy, but it's regrettably easy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:44
|
|
|
It turns out the X Gene is the gay gene and everyone is in the closet.ImpAtom posted:"maybe he couldn't handle being a mutant and gay in a society that had issues with both. And one is easier to 'put away' than the other." is a remarkably remarkably stupid phrase no matter what the rest of the thing turns out to be. Yes, your sexuality is easier to put away than your ability to turn into an ice-man. The character saying that is a big stupid idiot though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:.. It kind of is? I mean, I've been in the closet for going on 16 years now, for a number of reasons. It's not healthy, but it's regrettably easy. "Iceman is closeted" is pretty different from"he put it away because being a mutant was easier" or that being gay is somehow easier to put away than not using your ice magic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:"Iceman is closeted" is pretty different from"he put it away because being a mutant was easier" or that being gay is somehow easier to put away than not using your ice magic. Pretending to not be gay is easier than pretending to not have superpowers if you want to be a superhero. Moreover than that, being a mutant might be a little bit easier to deal with than being gay if you're surrounded by other mutants and a big bald paternal figure is constantly reassuring you it's okay to be a mutant. It's been awhile since I was a teenager, but I believe kind of a big part of the problem of being a LGBT teen is that you're often lacking role models or peers you feel like you can talk to about that sort of thing. Ice magic doesn't have that sort of issue when you're at Pat-Stew's Hogwarts Adjunct for Ice Wizardry and Punch Lasers. Also yeah Gray is handling this thing like a dope, but her whole thing is being a complete dope instead of this red-headed demi-goddess everyone remembers the older Jean as.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:02
|
|
|
Well, evidently Bendis has mentioned on newsarama that "This is just the first little chapter of a much larger story that will be told" so... Hnn. Over/under on when someone will set him up with Northstar?
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:06
|
|
|
Wanderer posted:Yeah, I should've been clearer in that I was being hypothetical. Right now, absent of context, it looks like Teen Bobby's going to surprise the hell out of Current Bobby, since Current Bobby's got a handful of serious female relationships behind him (even if the only one I can think of offhand is Opal Tanaka), but that might not be the case. Well back in Defenders(?) Bobby was involved with a character that was a sentient nebula and could be a man or a woman. And even though we all try to forget Chuck Austen's run on X-Men he seemed to be trying to set up something with Northstar and Iceman, but he did it terribly. It was like 'welp, he's straight, nm'. 'Maybe he just doesn't know he's gay yet'
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:07
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Well, evidently Bendis has mentioned on newsarama that "This is just the first little chapter of a much larger story that will be told" so... Northstar's a married man. Anole, however, isn't. And it would be less creepy. Assuming we're still talking about young Bobby. I think these are the most vestigial spoiler tags ever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:09
|
|
|
I kissed a girl!; I'm psychic! Make it happen, Bendis.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:11
|
|
|
Also, The O5 CAN'T be alternate universe versions of the characters, otherwise the young Cyclops dying for a second and older Cyclops phasing out of existence scene makes no sense whatsoever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:13
|
|
|
Hmmm http://youtu.be/xcG2pokgm7k
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:14
|
|
|
i imagine https://www.you tube.com/watch?v=nxLrH5ydSMM has a lot more to do with it. Cabbit posted:Pretending to not be gay is easier than pretending to not have superpowers if you want to be a superhero. That defeats the entire point of mutants as a whole then. If he wanted to be a superhero he could claim he got hit by cosmic rays. Being a mutant and being a superhero are not the same thing. Regardless, framing it as a choice is dumb and really strains the mutant metaphor. Edit: Also, I should note there's no drat problem with Iceman coming out as gay, it's just a poorly handled scene. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:18
|
|
|
Welp, I guess this makes it official. Doesn't change the fact the execution is utterly moronic, but it is what it is.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:19
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:Welp, I guess this makes it official. I just want to point out that the article says quote:We won’t link the pages here, Which I guess is true because they just inline the images.  E: And I guess the money quote for me is 'The obvious question is that once the young Bobby Drake has accepted and embraced who he is, what are the ramifications for his adult counterpart? It’s safe to say that will be dealt with.' but that doesn't make this initial reveal any less weird-feeling. NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 21, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:43
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:Welp, I guess this makes it official. I'll be honest, the more I hear them talk about this the less worried I am about the situation. Which of course is a dirty trap because that's exactly what these mofos want.  Maybe they'll finally use this opportunity to finally, definitively deal with his whole long-running "can't use his full potential despite being omega-class mutant 'cuz he's got self-doubt issues or whatever" thing that's been going on forever. At least, they'll deal with it until some other writer decides to bring it up again at some point.  I like to think that Emma Frost definitely, for-certain knew, and that she's gonna give Jean freakin' Grey an earful when she finds out how tactless she was about this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:50
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure eventually it'll be revealed to be all Professor X's fault somewhere down the line. "I'm sorry Robert, but being gay is icky. What else was I supposed to do?" There's your explanation and it makes sense because Xavier has been a prick all his life. 2020's summer event for the X titles is writing itself as we speak. Mr_Moose fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 21, 2015 23:58
|
|
|
Bendis is taking a bit of a beating on twitter/tumblr from the bisexual crowd over that phrase that comes off as marginalizing or discarding bisexuals, not to mention the outing. He keeps saying this is a long-term story and the full issue comes out tomorrow, but this certainly seems like his "M-word" moment in that if you take objection to how things were phrased or how actions played out, no amount of context is gonna make it okay. At some point, he's going to have to either give in that he's not as nuanced as he thought he was, or double down that this was a great way to handle things.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
quote:And when you get to name brand, easily recognizable (read: movie) characters? The list pretty much drops to zero, unless you’re a really big Northstar fan.  AND WHY WOULDN'T YOU BE.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:02
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:
I am sure she will as she has a gay brother who was driven insane by their dad
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
If I ever am in the position to write X-Men (it'll never happen, but hypothetically) I'd probably retcon this down the line to Bobby actually being a (closeted) bisexual that Jean accidentally telepathically pushed into being gay because she didn't really understand and explain the Bobby/Kitty relationship as them bonding as both being bisexual mutants. Keeps LGBT representation in the book and also cleans up Bedis' continuity mess at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:I am sure she will as she has a gay brother who was driven insane by their dad She knew all along. She also knows about Charles, Remi, Kurt and Doop but she doesn't just go around blurting it out!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
Space_Butler posted:He keeps saying this is a long-term story and the full issue comes out tomorrow, but this certainly seems like his "M-word" moment in that if you take objection to how things were phrased or how actions played out, no amount of context is gonna make it okay.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:08
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:If I ever am in the position to write X-Men (it'll never happen, but hypothetically) I'd probably retcon this down the line to Bobby actually being a (closeted) bisexual that Jean accidentally telepathically pushed into being gay because she didn't really understand and explain the Bobby/Kitty relationship as them bonding as both being bisexual mutants. Keeps LGBT representation in the book and also cleans up Bedis' continuity mess at the same time. That's even worse and an absolutely horrible idea to fix a story you haven't even seen yet. I mean Jesus, don't have a telepath gently caress with people's orientation because somebody didn't quite hit the mark while trying to be inclusive.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:11
|
|
|
Martinpale posted:Also, The O5 CAN'T be alternate universe versions of the characters, otherwise the young Cyclops dying for a second and older Cyclops phasing out of existence scene makes no sense whatsoever. Easily hand waved with all the Dark Beast time fuckery or the multiverse dying off by the next writer that thinks it was a dumb idea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:His M-word moment was great though. Or do you mean it's his turn to be in the position Remender was in? Sorry, my bad. The latter. At this point, it's not going to matter what he meant or intended, what's on the page is on the page, and taken pretty much every way it's at least somewhat problematic. I think he didn't expect the criticism over it to come from where it's currently (and going to continue) coming from.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:17
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I'll be honest, the more I hear them talk about this the less worried I am about the situation. Which of course is a dirty trap because that's exactly what these mofos want. Like anybody's gonna stop Waifu Grey from being an awful mind-invading person. The reveal is dumb because it's with Young Iceman. Marvel, and comics in general should have more diversity, but presented like this, it's silly. If the story were with present Bobby coming out, perhaps *gasp* of his own decision, then that makes the thing a tale of a character with a history of flopped relationships that now make sense because he was self-sabotaging or whatever. However if it's Young Bobby, it turns present Bobby into a closeted time paradox who makes any book he's featured in 10x awkward-er until the writer on Amazing (where present Iceman is (by the way everybody should read Amazing X-Men))syncs them up and makes him gay too, which they will, because I seriously doubt there are many writers at Marvel chomping at the bit to write the epic of "Iceman forces himself (literally) to go through conversion therapy". Bendis definitely got his "mark on the franchise" because no one in their right mind would try to undo this, but Jesus what a dumb way to write it. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:20
|
|
|
Thing that would be pretty reasonable, and maybe even inspiring: Spinning it as a story about how things are better now than in the 60's and young Bobby would never have been brave enough back then but nowadays it's fine to be who you really are and he's not scared anymore. Thing that would basically be the worst: Professor X thought that gays were gross so he fixed Bobby at some point then made him forget.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:27
|
|
|
Again, I'm wholly on board with the fact that this isn't written well and has problems. But the minute we're saying "This current thing doesn't make sense because of a prior thing that happened a while ago" about a current comics thing, we've already lost. They don't care about that. I mean...sometimes they should, sometimes they shouldn't, this isn't a value judgment thing, it's simply a thing: existing material is a thing to draw on if writers want to and particularly if they want to milk nostalgia, otherwise it's something for them to ignore or twist until it fits whatever they want to write now. Particularly for Bendis, but even so for almost any writer around nowadays. And really, the worst thing anyone can do right now is say stuff like "Iceman absolutely cannot be totally gay because of his fiery romance with fan-favorite sensations Opal Tanaka and Darkstar back in issue numbers asdfghjkl; during 1874!" That is absolutely the exact response that Marvel and Bendis is expecting, the exact sorts of responses they'll ignore (probably rightly), and it'll just make them more convinced that there's nothing wrong at all with the way they wrote this instead of the more subtle problematic elements that infuse the writing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
You know he's had more recent relationships like with Kitty in WATXM
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 01:58
|
|
|
So wait, Young Iceman is gay but old Iceman is not? And he's not just bi but full on gay (because bi people are just in denial amiright?) And yet psychic Jean confirms that his older self is hetero? Holy poo poo what an absolute clusterfuck. Either they make old Iceman gay (and ignore all previous continuity) or reveal that the young X-men are from an alt dimension (which they previously confirmed they aren't) or else Bendis is implying that you can actually "pray the gay away" which is horrible. No matter what he does he's written himself into a corner. Does anyone still think he's a good writer at this point? This is Austen level idiocy and being shocking for the sake of being shocking
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
The Goon posted:So wait, Young Iceman is gay but old Iceman is not? And he's not just bi but full on gay (because bi people are just in denial amiright?) And yet psychic Jean confirms that his older self is hetero? Holy poo poo what an absolute clusterfuck. Either they make old Iceman gay (and ignore all previous continuity) or reveal that the young X-men are from an alt dimension (which they previously confirmed they aren't) or else Bendis is implying that you can actually "pray the gay away" which is horrible. No matter what he does he's written himself into a corner. Does anyone still think he's a good writer at this point? This is Austen level idiocy and being shocking for the sake of being shocking I don't think that she confirmed old Bobby is gay, though? Jean seemed to be implying that his past relationships with women failed and were disasters or whatever BECAUSE he was gay, not that he was Definitely Hetero.  It's a retcon, those happen. Gay people struggling with hetero relationships and trying to force themselves into hetero relationships because they're in denial happens, too. As retcons go, it could be worse. It ain't like Bendis retconned the Maximoffs out of their various family ties or anything.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:14
|
|
|
I like that the young O5 are becoming healthier versions of their older selves. Jeans learning the extent of her powers without going crazy, Cyclops gets to spend time with his dad, and Bobby, well, I always knew. I used to watch Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
'Ignore all previous continuity', like that's ever stopped anyone before. Also, I don't actually think she confirmed anything. From what I've seen, it looks like they're both beating around the question of why he's seemingly straight in a 'why is he still in the closet?' kind of way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
I don't want to get my hopes up that this is going to be handled with nuance but I sure hope it is. Sexuality is a social construct, and I believe strongly that people have a spectrum of attraction, and I would love to see that represented somewhere, instead of the normal idea that one is either gay or straight and nothing in between being there. Bobby is a character I strongly relate to, and the older I get the more that seems to be the case so I'm interested to see where this goes I guess if the idea was to get people talking, mission successful because since announced this is like as many posts as have taken place in this thread as in like two months before combined.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
edit -- aw nevermind this is all pointless. I shouldn't be trying to apply logic to this change, it is what it is no matter how poorly written.
Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:'Ignore all previous continuity', like that's ever stopped anyone before. Also, I don't actually think she confirmed anything. From what I've seen, it looks like they're both beating around the question of why he's seemingly straight in a 'why is he still in the closet?' kind of way. I don't think they've really addressed his family situation since the 90s, but isn't his family Irish Catholic? I can kinda buy 'super deep in the closet', because I've known enough people from religious families that have said 'oh, I could never come out to my family...' which is heartbreaking
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 03:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 19, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
notthegoatseguy posted:You know he's had more recent relationships like with Kitty in WATXM Two closeted people looking for a beard!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 04:51
|
|
