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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:If the prosecutor wanted to shield their cop buddy, they'd just say "self-defense, no charges" Come now, there might be political concerns that require them to at least make an effort. In this case, maybe they were thinking they could get him for manslaughter and handled it incompetently, but they were only seeking manslaughter because they didn't think a cop deserved a real murder charge for shooting some potential criminals. ActusRhesus, do you not think a situation like that would even be possible? That a prosecutor may press fewer charges than they might be able to succeed with because they feel some sympathy for the person being charged? Is that a thing that ever happens in your experience? (Maybe the situations where a prosecutor has some sympathy for the person they are going is uncommon and you don't have enough data to say, that's alright just say that if so) GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:31
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ActusRhesus posted:They may have wanted to prevent him from getting that "version" out at all. Also, the way most jury forms go, you have to be unanimous on the greatest charge before you can go on to lesser. So, at least here, if they had found the state proved nurder, but believed self defense, case is over. It looks like they made a charging decision based on trying to avoid jury sympathy and then he hosed it all up by going judge alone. Except the "lesser" charge they tried to convict him of could not apply. Even if a claim of self defense was upheld he'd be in the exact same place. Only he'd have been cleared by a real trial, rather than a technicality.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:37
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GlyphGryph posted:Come now, there might be political concerns that require them to at least make an effort. I suppose it's possible to lower charges based on sympathy on all fronts. All this is really speculative. Here, however, the philosophy is generally to charge the offense warranted by the evidence and let the sympathy factor into recommended sentences or plea deals.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:38
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DARPA posted:Except the "lesser" charge they tried to convict him of could not apply. Even if a claim of self defense was upheld he'd be in the exact same place. Only he'd have been cleared by a real trial, rather than a technicality. I guess I'm just not all that surprised about a faulty charging decision. Especially when it's hinging on negligent v reckless v intentional analysis. poo poo gets murky there. Also, I really dislike the phrase "got off on a technicality" as applied to acquittals in any case.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:42
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ActusRhesus posted:I guess I'm just not all that surprised about a faulty charging decision. Especially when it's hinging on negligent v reckless v intentional analysis. poo poo gets murky there. You're making a decent case for prosecutorial fuckup here but it still sounds like this cop had a pretty sharp defense attorney - which could be yet more evidence of soft systemic bias, in that defendants who aren't cops might be less likely to have a sharp public defender. Edit: it is no accident that your salary as prosecutor is higher than the salary of the defense attorneys you oppose. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:46
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Zeitgueist posted:Is there any way there can be consequences for the DA in this, or are we in another "it's not a murder when a cop" Radish posted:We really need to figure out how to deal with prosecutors that work with people in order to let them get away with murder. It seems like a huge failing of the justice system that it keeps happening and everyone involved is like "yeah that's hosed up but what can you do?" TURN IT OFF! posted:I know nothing about law. Can you sue a lawyer for malpractice sort of like a doctor? If you can prove that incompetence cost you the case? Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:50
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I think you'll find the quality of public defenders varies widely from state to state. As a cop he would not be an indigent so he had retained counsel. However, here many of our PDs are much more talented than private counsel. The notion of the ineffective public defender is completely incorrect in a lot of places. They may be under resourced, but talent wise ours are quite good.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:You're making a decent case for prosecutorial fuckup here but it still sounds like this cop had a pretty sharp defense attorney - which could be yet more evidence of soft systemic bias, in that defendants who aren't cops might be less likely to have a sharp public defender. No it's not. That right there is part of the myth. Per statute, we are paid exactly the same in this state based on seniority. As a relative n00b most of my opposing counsel make much more than I do. If the prosecutors get a raise the PDs get a matching one. You are basing your opinion in part on things that are mistakes of fact. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:52
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ActusRhesus posted:That right there is part of the myth. Per statute, we are paid exactly the same in this state. If the prosecutors get a raise the PDs get a matching one. OK, fair enough for you, but what about wherever this cop is? In my state public defenders are paid significantly less, with drastically higher caseloads. It isn't really a myth if it is in fact often true. It isn't uncommon for SC public defenders to have as many has 500 cases on their open list.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:56
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You made a generalization though. You said I, as a prosecutor, made more and I don't. You see where that creates an impression that maybe your information isn't complete? I agree some states do it better than others. I think ours is towards the front on that. So it's really not a US problem, it's a state problem. So maybe a more focused look at where the problems are, and how they can mirror the areas without problems is in order. Starting with no elected prosecutors and judges.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:06
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ActusRhesus posted:You made a generalization though. [...] You see where that creates an impression that maybe your information isn't complete? Someone is generalizing their own limited experience in one place onto prosecutors operation in another area of the United States? Oh my! 
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Apr 21, 2015 19:09
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ActusRhesus posted:You made a generalization though. You said I, as a prosecutor, made more and I don't. You see where that creates an impression that maybe your information isn't complete? I agree some states do it better than others. I think ours is towards the front on that. So it's really not a US problem, it's a state problem. So maybe a more focused look at where the problems are, and how they can mirror the areas without problems is in order. Starting with no elected prosecutors and judges. Doesn't mean my generalization was actually wrong though in the case of this particular cop - you're refuting one point but not my argument. Your state may be a special flower, but the perception of public defender inadequacy is based on a lot of actual real problems. And at least to some extent the perception is itself part of the problem. Justice must be seen to be impartial.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:14
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ActusRhesus posted:Straw man. That wasn't what was said and you know it. They are high visibility because they involve police. Bullshit. We've had police killings in LA for years and it's only starting to make the news again because it's a current issue and people are videotaping the gently caress out of police.
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Apr 21, 2015 19:15
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How often to prosecutors make oopsies with non-cops?
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Apr 21, 2015 19:18
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MattO posted:How often to prosecutors make oopsies with non-cops? Quite a bit but not in the favor of the criminal
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Apr 21, 2015 19:20
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MattO posted:How often to prosecutors make oopsies with non-cops? Based on all the stories I've heard from lawyers, all the loving time.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:01
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Zeitgueist posted:Quite a bit but not in the favor of the criminal Mistakes in favor of defendants happen too, but, from what little I've read, I feel that how this case went was an absolute travesty beyond most simple mistakes. It doesn't help the prosecutor's image that she had previously faced controversy due to her refusal to press charges in another officer's shooting. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 20:02
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tentative8e8op posted:Mistakes in favor of defendants happen too, but, from what little I've read, I feel that how this case went was an absolute travesty beyond most simple mistakes. It doesn't help the prosecutor's image that she had previously faced controversy due to her refusal to press charges in another officer's shooting. Jury Nullification. Just fix the glitch.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:01
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ActusRhesus posted:Like pretty much ALL criminal law comes down to the letter of the law. See e.g. OJ Simpson, Michael Skakel, etc. I definitely think of OJ when I consider trials that were purely about the letter of the law and nothing else.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:09
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http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2010/12/30/suit-police-removed-clothes-of-deceased-victim-took-photos/quote:CHICAGO (CBS) Cook County sheriffs police removed the clothes of a deceased accident victim and took photographs of her nude body along the side of the road, a lawsuit claims.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:47
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I imagine you meant to link to today's update to that 2010 story? http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/news/ct-sta-mejia-lawsuit-st-0419-20150420-story.html quote:When the lawsuit was first filed, the sheriff's office denied it had taken naked photos of the young woman at the scene. Smith, who was not with the sheriff's office at the time, acknowledged the photos were taken but said it's "standard operating procedure" to photograph crime scenes. quote:One set of photos shows Mejia, lifeless, in the back seat of the vehicle: She is wearing jeans, a white T-shirt and high heels. Oh, you meant THOSE naked accident scene photos.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:21
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Why do cops hate cameras so much? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-J-6SkuKJ0 There must be some reason, maybe they think photographs steal souls. Oh, here's the news story that goes with it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQEGMVzGLWo VVVVVVV Maybe they should learn to use their words like big boys. Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 22:33
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Spun Dog posted:Why do cops hate cameras so much? It seems to me less like they're concerned about being filmed and more upset that the woman keeps lecturing them and wanted to lash out in response. Still a hosed up thing to do.
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Apr 21, 2015 22:37
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From this link:quote:TULSA, Oklahoma - A Tulsa County Sheriff Reserve Deputy charged with second-degree manslaughter made a court appearance Tuesday morning. 
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Apr 21, 2015 22:46
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That isn't uncommon for people on bail, fyi.
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Apr 21, 2015 23:00
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Wouldn't want a silly little thing like a manslaughter charges ruining a vacation. Do the Bahamas extradite to the U.S.?
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Apr 22, 2015 00:45
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Yes http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/71600.pdf
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Apr 22, 2015 00:56
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Yep. But I'm guessing they assessed that he isn't likely to represent a flight risk anyway.
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Apr 22, 2015 01:01
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If I were rich enough to make bail on a charge like that, I'd just Bob Durst it. Goodbye bail money, hello Cuba.
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Apr 22, 2015 01:29
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VitalSigns posted:It's amazing how inept prosecutors suddenly become when a cop is the defendant.
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Apr 22, 2015 02:30
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PostNouveau posted:If I were rich enough to make bail on a charge like that, I'd just Bob Durst it. Goodbye bail money, hello Cuba. If he did try this, it would be hilarious if, in the effort to continue bettering relations, Cuba extradited him back to the US
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Apr 22, 2015 02:35
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/nyregion/grand-juries-seldom-charge-police-officers-in-fatal-actions.htmlquote:The whole process is really reluctant to criminalize police behavior, said Eugene ODonnell, a former prosecutor who teaches at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Manhattan. The grand jurors are, the jurors are, the judges are, the appellate courts are. quote:There is a natural conflict of interest when district attorneys - who typically work closely with the police to bring cases against suspected criminals - are faced with prosecuting those same officers. District attorneys count on officers' testimony to support their cases during trials of alleged criminals. There is a particular reticence in bringing charges against officers who have been "productive" and who have worked closely with the district attorney's office. In some jurisdictions, district attorneys are elected and are aware that the powerful police unions and their supporters may withdraw their support if a police officer is prosecuted. quote:The Graham analysis essentially prohibits any second-guessing of the officers decision to use deadly force: no hindsight is permitted, and wide latitude is granted to the officers account of the situation, even if scientific evidence proves it to be mistaken. quote:What about internal affairs investigations? On television they are aggressive, dogged, uncompromising. In real life they tend to insulate the police from serious external sanction. I stopped cooperating with the IAB ten years ago, says Jason Leventhal, a former assistant district attorney in Richmond County, Staten Island who now works as a civil rights litigator, often suing the police. IA will never, ever credit the claim of police abuse. They hide witnesses, they push witnesses around. The only time I cooperate with them is when I know I have their hands tied behind their back. quote:For a comparison we can use data from our National Police Misconduct Statistics and Reporting Project (NPMSRP) which tracked over 8,300 credible reports involving allegations of police misconduct in the US from April of 2009 through December 2010 which involved nearly 11,000 law enforcement officers within those 21 months. Of those reported allegations, only 3,238 resulted in criminal charges against law enforcement officers. Of those 3,238 criminal cases against law enforcement officers in the US, only 1,063 officers were ultimately convicted of those charges or reduced charges associated with the original allegations. Of the law enforcement officers who were ultimately convicted, 36% were ultimately sentenced to spend any time incarcerated and the average length of incarceration for those sentenced to prison or jail was approximately 34.6 months.
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Apr 22, 2015 02:39
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PostNouveau posted:Wouldn't want a silly little thing like a manslaughter charges ruining a vacation. You understand you don't have to ask permission to skip bail, right?
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Apr 22, 2015 03:15
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nm posted:You understand you don't have to ask permission to skip bail, right? Is turning over your passport not standard?
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Apr 22, 2015 03:41
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Guys, defendants being treated with basic dignity before being convicted of a crime isn't the problem with cases like this.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:03
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DARPA posted:Is turning over your passport not standard?
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Apr 22, 2015 04:10
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Zeitgueist posted:Quite a bit but not in the favor of the criminal Source? Because I've seen plenty of acquittals during to prosecutor gently caress ups.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:17
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nm posted:That isn't uncommon for people on bail, fyi. This.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:22
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ActusRhesus posted:Source? Because I've seen plenty of acquittals during to prosecutor gently caress ups. That statement was too absolute. I'll walk it back to "yes but not nearly as often in favor of the criminal" as when its a cop
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Apr 22, 2015 04:40
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DARPA posted:Is turning over your passport not standard? No. Real life is not like movies. Only happens if they see a flight risk. Also, jesus, not even lawyers are safe in the courthouse: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/swarm-philly-cops-beat-public-defender-client-courtroom/
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Apr 22, 2015 05:47
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