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Yeah, it was just a nightmare he had. He goes and digs the revolver out of the drawer to make sure that he didn't forget it on the crime scene with his prints on it. He's definitely getting more and more paranoid to the point where he's barricaded himself in by the time the bombs go off.
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Apr 22, 2015 08:17
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scamtank posted:Yeah, it was just a nightmare he had. He goes and digs the revolver out of the drawer to make sure that he didn't forget it on the crime scene with his prints on it. He's definitely getting more and more paranoid to the point where he's barricaded himself in by the time the bombs go off. I didn't even interpret it as making sure he didn't forget it. He's just so paranoid now that the cops are onto him that he's getting the gun so he's ready when they come for him. The irony, of course, being that they aren't going to, because no one really cares about the Miami Mutilator enough to investigate it.
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Apr 22, 2015 08:21
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scamtank posted:Yeah, it was just a nightmare he had. He goes and digs the revolver out of the drawer to make sure that he didn't forget it on the crime scene with his prints on it. He's definitely getting more and more paranoid to the point where he's barricaded himself in by the time the bombs go off. And then he gets called into work because the pig butcher gunned everyone down.
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Apr 22, 2015 08:35
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Stairmaster posted:And then he gets called into work because the pig butcher gunned everyone down. So did that actually happen? That's what I was assuming when he got that call, but they never elaborate on it so I have no idea.
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Apr 22, 2015 13:47
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There's some weird stuff going on with Pardo. I believe the level where he 'escapes' from the police station briefly shows a film set, much in the same style as Midnight Animal.
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Apr 22, 2015 14:00
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I posted it a while ago but replay homicide When the dialog starts at the mutilator's victim, a cameraman flashes in over pardo's shoulder and slowly fades away. He thinks he's in a movie
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Apr 22, 2015 14:29
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JAssassin posted:So did that actually happen? That's what I was assuming when he got that call, but they never elaborate on it so I have no idea. Yeah it's intentionally left vague but I never really thought about that being real, but there are "clues" that it might be. We see the actress from the movie in the guy's apartment but we don't know that she's there willingly, and then she leaves and that goes directly into the police coming to the door (as if she called them). There's the movie set at the end, but we only see it after the actor is down on the ground after being shot. That could mean that as he's laying there dying he either thinks it's a movie or he wishes that it were, that maybe he realizes what he's done and doesn't want to believe it.
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Apr 22, 2015 14:37
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Improbable Lobster posted:What? None of that was real, he never left his apartment. Aren't we kinda past spoilers at this point in the thread? Some of it must have been real. He kills Tony. He didn't dream that, which means he does leave his apartment to investigate crimes and he DOES push past the police, kill people, and get away with it. The whole thing is not a dream. He's just losing his grip on what's real and what's not (like many other characters) so we don't know for sure what is or isn't real. Like Jacket pre-Trauma. Hotline Miami makes you question everything you think you know happened. JAssassin posted:So did that actually happen? That's what I was assuming when he got that call, but they never elaborate on it so I have no idea. The Pig Butcher's story is the most ambiguous of all. There's a lot of different ways to interpret it. Didn't Midnight Animal happen before Jacket's 50 blessings HM1 events, though? I need to look at that timeline again... something's screwey.
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Apr 22, 2015 14:50
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Zaphod42 posted:The Pig Butcher's story is the most ambiguous of all. There's a lot of different ways to interpret it. I still believe that the actor never killed anyone. We see his talk show dream where he's clearly becoming unhinged by playing a murderer and it's starting to affect him, but I don't think we see him ever act on that? He bites in the end when the Director replaces the prop gun with a real one and the actress shoots him which I imagine is because the Director wanted a more realistic looking ending and now Midnight Animal is a snuff film and the whole thing is about how the media portrays violence and feeds into the cycle of it I guess.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:41
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Midnight Animal is most definitely based on the HM1 murders. It's designed to be sensational and has the pertinent facts right but embellishes it. The Pig Butcher is supposed to be jacket, the girl is kidnapped rather than staying with him voluntarily, he imagines the phone calls etc. The police station massacre is portrayed as to get to the girl because literally nobody knows about Richter and his involvement apart from 50 Blessings and the police at that point. Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 15:49
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Moltrey posted:Nah, Midnight Animal came out in 1991 and meant to capitalize on the Masked Murderer buzz going around. Yeah, I could definitely buy that. Depending upon how things go with Evan, you see Martin Brown alive and being interviewed at the very end of HM2 when the bomb is going off, which calls everything else into question including even his death. But then Evan being interviewed could have been the canon story, like how Jake getting killed by the 50 blessings guy can happen but isn't really canon. Like, I can see a few ways it could go: Pig butcher records movie long ago, has some nightmares, never kills anybody, dies at end to nuke. Pig butcher records movie but gets killed on set at the end of filming. Pig butcher records movie but goes on a psychotic break and starts re-enacting the scenes from the movie in real life, imagining that he is still filming the movie, and gets killed later on. The wiki's timeline is clear to point out all the dates from the Pig Butcher are "pig butcher timeline" and those dates could be fictional and in the future of the time they take place, or even the past. Its hard to say for sure. We do see a VHS of Midnight Animal so we know it exists in-game somehow. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 15:50
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How are you people still this confused?  The plot in Hotline Miami 2 is surprisingly straightforward, especially for the way the narrative is set up.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:52
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Broseph Brostar posted:How are you people still this confused? So when does Martin Brown die and how, Mr. Smartypants? He's dead at the end of his level but he appears at the end of HM2 in an interview. The story is intentionally ambiguous and uses unreliable narrators that contradict each other. If you think its straightforward its because you've got no imagination.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:53
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Martin dies in Final Cut. It even has the blood spatter at the start that shows a major character is going to die.
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Apr 22, 2015 15:58
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The story isn't really ambiguous at all. The character motivations are, but the story is very straightforward.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:01
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Ddraig posted:Martin dies in Final Cut. It even has the blood spatter at the start that shows a major character is going to die.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:03
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Ddraig posted:The story isn't really ambiguous at all. The character motivations are, but the story is very straightforward. Final cut explicitly has no date given while most levels do. Not ambiguous? None of Martin Brown's levels do. That doesn't even strike you as odd? Is Final Cut the ending of the movie? Is he acting out his own psychopathic rage? Nah poo poo's all straightforward. You know there's theories that like, Martin Brown is Manny Pardo's psychotic alter-ego, right? "Pardo" in spanish means dark brown. Manny and Martin are fairly similar names. They both one-hand the shotgun and have the same ground finisher. They both hallucinate film crews. Both have a level where they shoot up a police station and then die. Martin gets visited by Richard, but Manny doesn't. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but its a pretty cool theory and it seems possible. Otherwise Martin Brown's story is completely disconnected from everybody else, but if you look at it that way, its one more element that ties all the characters together. But nah, poo poo's straightforward. What are you stupid people confused about?  If you're not approaching Hotline Miami like every character could be lying to you and themselves, you're boring. After HM1's Jacket killed Biker and then didn't because it was all a coma dream, you shouldn't take anything at face-value. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 16:12
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Even the "yea i killed children heh" in the dream interview comes across like he's fantasizing the edgiest poo poo he can come up with IN FRONT OF A LIVE AUDIENCE!! as he goes. I never noticed the name connection.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:26
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It's painfully obvious Midnight Animal is a sensational retelling of the Mask Killer (Jacket). The 'Pig Butcher's flat is exactly the same as Jacket's. The girl is obviously the hooker he rescued. He receives strange phone calls that tell him to kill. He assaults a police station etc. It reads like one of those lovely "Ripped from the headlines!" stories that just didn't put the research in and wanted to capitalize on the shlocky nature of the killings without actually bothering to check any of the facts. They don't really care about the motivations of the killer, to the point where the only reason they can think of as to why he would rescue the girl is to keep her as a sex slave, not because he might actually care etc. I imagine the reason Final Cut hasn't got a date is because, given the main actor died during filming, it probably didn't get an official release and so was probably just a bootleg VHS that has become somewhat legendary, due to the story, and the story surrounding it.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:50
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Zaphod42 posted:Final cut explicitly has no date given while most levels do. Not ambiguous? None of Martin Brown's levels do. That doesn't even strike you as odd? Because you don't need to jump to ridiculous stuff like coma dreams and poo poo when there is already a simple explanation available. Why would Pardo dream that he's a ruthless murderer in movies, when he is directly proven to not have a thirst for violence. Wouldn't he imagine a supercop solving crimes or a John Wick ripoff? Pardo and Brown are just foils of each other's character. Pardo, who murders criminals as a daily job doesn't even enjoy the bloodshed, he only wants attention and fame by any means necessary. Brown has all the fame Pardo wants, but Brown has an growing bloodlust that he never gets to act on. Midnight Animal screws with your expectations as a player and makes you predict that he's going to start murdering people off the set like its implying. Unfortunately, his story comes to an abrupt end before you reach the conclusion that you wanted, which sets the tone for the rest of the story where the other important characters are unceremoniously killed with very little closure.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:53
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Moltrey posted:How does Martin look in that Hard Mode scene with Richard? After the character say their line, their sprites change to represent how they die and I have no memory of how Martin looks. Martin dies in the Final Cut. It's even reflected in the pre-game hidden scene with Richard:  Top right, exact same pose as the end of Final Cut. 
Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 16:55
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Ddraig posted:Martin dies in the Final Cut. It's even reflected in the pre-game hidden scene with Richard: Is that for Hard mode I guess? I like the fact that he's sitting in a chair like everybody else while on the ground, like he's part of the discussion.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:00
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Ddraig posted:It's painfully obvious Midnight Animal is a sensational retelling of the Mask Killer (Jacket). Nobody is disputing this. Ddraig posted:I imagine the reason Final Cut hasn't got a date is because, given the main actor died during filming, it probably didn't get an official release and so was probably just a bootleg VHS that has become somewhat legendary, due to the story, and the story surrounding it. That's a cool take on it, for sure. Broseph Brostar posted:Why would Pardo dream that he's a ruthless murderer in movies, when he is directly proven to not have a thirst for violence. Pardo has no thirst for violence? Are you forgetting where he walked past all the cops and shot Tony in the head as he surrendered?  Broseph Brostar posted:Pardo and Brown are just foils of each other's character. Pardo, who murders criminals as a daily job doesn't even enjoy the bloodshed, he only wants attention and fame by any means necessary. Brown has all the fame Pardo wants, but Brown has an growing bloodlust that he never gets to act on. I agree, like I said the alter-ego thing isn't necessarily true and I don't necessarily buy it. But I think looking at all the angles is really interesting and is clearly what the games were intended for. Some of it is probably an intentional red herring, even. I do like the way it screws with your expectations as a player, and goes into the meta about what people thought of HM1 and expected from HM2 and did/didn't get from HM2. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 17:01
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The whole of Capture is about Pardo having a guilty conscience of sorts. Probably not over the fact he did the killing, mainly over the fact he may get caught. He is absolutely terrified that he may have left the gun behind, and has an entire dream where his house of cards comes crashing down and even then he can't just go quietly, he's so desperate for celebrity that he kills the entire station because "You'll never take me alive" Pardo's motivations are completely up in the air. Even Richard doesn't even know what the gently caress he's doing
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Apr 22, 2015 17:06
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Zaphod42 posted:Pardo has no thirst for violence? Are you forgetting where he walked past all the cops and shot Tony in the head as he surrendered? That's because he was livid that the Fans were taking attention away from him. He's not a thrill-killer like the rest, he just wants the fame. Of course, his whole "this is what happens to scum like you" speech before capping Tony also sounds like he knew the walls were closing in, which is why it's the last thing Pardo does before his nightmare. He then goes to the Son's HQ, presumably to try and get killed by him in one last blaze of glory, but then chickens out and holes up in his apartment instead.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:10
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Yeah he wanted fame, and the fact that nobody gave a poo poo drove him nuts. Something I was wondering was how much he knew about the fans. Was it just a coincidence that he planted evidence on Alex? Could he have made one of the calls to them?
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Apr 22, 2015 17:16
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Oxxidation posted:That's because he was livid that the Fans were taking attention away from him. He's not a thrill-killer like the rest, he just wants the fame. But it can't all just be a figment of his imagination; its NOT just a nightmare. he keeps talking about the Miami Mutilator to Evan, wanting him to write about it. Was he just making up all of those stories? Evan seemed to know what he was talking about, even if he was more focused on the fans' and jacket's motivations personally. But at the same time it seems pretty clear that he didn't really shoot up the police station. So we know that with Pardo's story its not all true but its not all false. Its really ambiguous, like most of the game's story. That's the thing; he's angry at the fans for taking the attention away from him. The attention of people like Evan. If it was all imagined, there'd be no reason for people to be paying him attention anyways. Manny Pardo being named after a real life cop who went on a killing spree is also another clue, and one more element of the meta that is HM. I do really like the idea of Manny being like the main character from American Psycho though, a guy who thinks he's a serial killer but actually isn't, and who has completely lost his marbles. That's actually even more disturbing, in some ways. (When he calls up the guy's answering machine and confesses to murder and then the guy laughs it off because he's still alive) Ddraig posted:Pardo's motivations are completely up in the air. Even Richard doesn't even know what the gently caress he's doing Exactly.
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 17:16
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Zaphod42 posted:But it can't all just be a figment of his imagination; he keeps talking about the Miami Mutilator to Evan, wanting him to write about it. Was he just making up all of those stories? Evan seemed to know what he was talking about, even if he was more focused on the fans' and jacket's motivations personally. I never said it was imaginary. The only confirmed hallucinatory episode of Pardo's is the police-station slaughter. The other bloodbaths are probably real. ...which, looking back, is exactly what you were told before you started this whole derail. Good grief, man, think of all the time you could have saved.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:19
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Fame, or at the very least Celebrity, is a big theme running through it. Especially after Jacket does his killings and it sort of has an effect on popular culture. Martin Brown's interview gives the impression he's either a fairly well respected actor or at least thinks he is ("How do you respond to people who say you're selling out?"), the Director also wants fame but realizes a lovely B-Movie probably isn't going to do it. Pardo literally thinks he's the leading man in his own crime thriller, and is angry as hell when he fades into obscurity and the Miami Mutilator becomes his way of trying to get back in the spotlight (Capture is probably him realizing that the only way he's going to get that fame he craves is if he's revealed as the Mutilator, something he's terrified of because he won't be the hero in that story) The Fans obviously want to be like Jacket. Just about the only two characters who have a 'happy' ending are Richter and Evan, and Evan only really gets that if you don't focus on the book (thus giving up your fame) and get in contact with your family.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:19
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Zaphod42 posted:Pardo has no thirst for violence? Are you forgetting where he walked past all the cops and shot Tony in the head as he surrendered? Its pretty well established that Pardo has no regard for the law and will execute any criminal like its nothing. Pardo specifically hated the fans because they were stealing his attention, so of course he wanted to kill Tony. Plus he was attempting to frame one of the swans as the mutilator and Tony could possibly provide an alibi for her. E: beaten a while ago
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Apr 22, 2015 17:21
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Oxxidation posted:I never said it was imaginary. The only confirmed hallucinatory episode of Pardo's is the police-station slaughter. The other bloodbaths are probably real. I already edited the post to make that more clear, yeah. I didn't mean that you implied that, I was just covering all the bases and crossing off answers to see what was left. What? I mean yeah, the final thing was fictional and the rest probably wasn't. But do we know? Its like Jacket, everything pre-Trauma could have kinda happened or maybe only one or two of the levels really did and the rest was dreamed from the amalgamation of the rest. Pardo could be inflating his actions in his narcissism. If he has one nightmare he believes, he could have had others. But some of it is definitely real. Ddraig posted:Fame, or at the very least Celebrity, is a big theme running through it. Especially after Jacket does his killings and it sort of has an effect on popular culture. Martin Brown's interview gives the impression he's either a fairly well respected actor or at least thinks he is ("How do you respond to people who say you're selling out?"), the Director also wants fame but realizes a lovely B-Movie probably isn't going to do it. Pardo literally thinks he's the leading man in his own crime thriller, and is angry as hell when he fades into obscurity and the Miami Mutilator becomes his way of trying to get back in the spotlight (Capture is probably him realizing that the only way he's going to get that fame he craves is if he's revealed as the Mutilator, something he's terrified of because he won't be the hero in that story) Yeah definitely. And that's all in response to the fame of the first game's success, too. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 17:24
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Maybe the events of both games are just the fever dreams of an autistic child in the real world 
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Apr 22, 2015 17:58
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Broseph Brostar posted:Maybe the events of both games are just the fever dreams of an autistic 
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Apr 22, 2015 18:25
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JAssassin posted:So did that actually happen? That's what I was assuming when he got that call, but they never elaborate on it so I have no idea. The swat commander he talks to in the death-wish epilogue is the same one in the final cut.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:01
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Anyways, contest is running until Sunday, unless I don't get more than the two submissions that I have in right now. Remember, 3 copies of BLOODBATH KAVKAZ are on the line, so bust out your creativity and earn yourself a terrible Russian copy of Hotline Miami with an eerily catchy soundtrack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOVXxVZw0gU
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Apr 22, 2015 22:10
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Random thing I noticed: After Death Wish Tony is cradling Corey's corpse. Aw.. Also I kind of expected Tony to be unmasked and revealed as Manny after the intro to Dead Ahead. They're both kind of jerks to their nicer friends (Mark and Evan) but mostly because he knew to plant evidence in Alex's house. Unless Death Wish didn't happen and Tony really is Manny  I'm really looking forward to seeing people turn all their insane fan theories into playable levels. Improbable Lobster posted:What? None of that was real, he never left his apartment. I'm aware, but the point is that it's an intro followed by a scene that isn't connected to the intro. Zaphod42 posted:
If there was no other evidence I'd discard it as a weird bug but keep in mind Pardo's corpse sometimes turns into Martin's in Caught. Ddraig posted:Pardo's motivations are completely up in the air. Even Richard doesn't even know what the gently caress he's doing They're completely straight forward unless you subscribe to one of the alter ego/DID theories. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 22:48
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Anatharon posted:If there was no other evidence I'd discard it as a weird bug but keep in mind Pardo's corpse sometimes turns into Martin's in Caught.  Oh poo poo dude, I did not know about that.Down the rabbit hole we go...
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Apr 22, 2015 23:16
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Two characters in one story, one who is a movie star who wishes to be a murderer, another a murderer who wishes to be a movie star. No, these two ideas couldn't be connected.
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Apr 23, 2015 00:22
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satanic splash-back posted:Two characters in one story, one who is a movie star who wishes to be a murderer, another a murderer who wishes to be a movie star. Two sides of the same coin.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:42
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Pardo: "We're not so different, you and I!" [PRESS R TO RESTART]
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