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Unzip and Attack posted:When 1997 Dick Cheney has this poo poo figured out better than you do 5 years later, then you've got loving problems. This isn't some little policy quibble- the invasion of Iraq was an inestimable blunder that calls into question the judgment and/or motivation of any human being that supported it. Hillary doesn't get to just shrug and look at the camera while a sad trombone sound plays. I mean if you want to be as bad as the people who ignore Reagan's treason or excuse Bush's ineptitude then go ahead.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:43
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If that excuse works for your choice as President, then you've got some pretty low standards. When I think of POTUS qualifications, I definitely think of "buys into climate of fear" near the top of my list.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:45
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Unzip and Attack posted:If either of those excuses work for your choice as President, then you've got some pretty low standards.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:46
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A Winner is Jew posted:Republican primary voters = he has a 0.0% chance of making it past Iowa for one. Chafee's running as a Democrat. e: Yeah, beaten by a country mile, but Chafee's a better Democrat than about half the Democrats in the Senate and House. Small wonder he's abandoned the GOP.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:46
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JT Jag posted:I'll be entirely honest, I'll vote for anything with a pulse as long as it isn't a Republican this election because the Supreme Court appointments are going to be critical. I am not disagreeing with you, and chances are I'll choke on it and vote for her because of that same reason.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:47
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That said, hell yeah vote for who you really want during the primary, if a left-leaning candidate gets enough votes it could push Hillary to adopt part of their platform. You only need to settle once the general comes along.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:49
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GlyphGryph posted:Iraq was in response to 9/11. You can argue about whether or not that was a justified response, but that is a big part of why it happened. Quick show of hands - who else thinks we didn't go to war with Iraq as part of a response to 9/11? The only link between AQ and Saddam was built on lies that Cheney and Rumsfeld sold to the american people. poo poo man, Tenet even knew there was no functional relationship between AQ and Saddam, told Bush so Cheney and Rumsfeld went around him to make those claims on news shows. "'wikipedia' posted:The CIA's report on Iraq's ties to terrorism noted in September 2002 that the CIA did not have "credible intelligence reporting" of operational collaboration between Iraq and al-Qaeda. According to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the CIA reported that "al-Qaida, including Bin Ladin personally, and Saddam were leery of close cooperation," but that the "mutual antipathy of the two would not prevent tactical, limited cooperation." (p. 338) JT Jag posted:You think that Lincoln Chaffee would run as a Republican, how cute. I didn't know he switched parties tbh. JT Jag posted:That said, hell yeah vote for who you really want during the primary, if a left-leaning candidate gets enough votes it could push Hillary to adopt part of their platform. You only need to settle once the general comes along. Exactly my feelings on the matter. A Winner is Jew fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 19:51
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GlyphGryph posted:Iraq was in response to 9/11. You can argue about whether or not that was a justified response, but that is a big part of why it happened. Quick show of hands - who else thinks we didn't go to war with Iraq as part of a response to 9/11?
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Apr 22, 2015 19:53
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Unzip and Attack posted:It should however be noted that Dick Cheney went on CNN in 1997 and when asked why Desert Storm didn't go into Baghdad, he noted the power vacuum caused by a fall of the Baathists would result in a huge chaotic mess that could trigger another war with Iran or a civil war. That video never fails to make my jaw drop. He knew exactly what the consequences of invading Iraq would be a decade beforehand and did it anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75ctsv2oPU
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Apr 22, 2015 19:55
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I kind of wish we could clone sanders with the slight tweak that he's 30 stories tall and he needs to consume people over 20 million in net personal worth in order to live. Then let him loose in the middle of wallstreet.  Attack on Titan(s of Industry)
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Apr 22, 2015 19:56
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A Winner is Jew posted:e: YOLO Does an ongoing conflict count? Considering Enduring Freedom will likely be ongoing for some time due to ISIS...
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Apr 22, 2015 19:57
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$1000 donation to the charity of your choice if president Hillary gets us into a foreign war that isn't in response to a major terrorist attack (1k+ dead) or a humanitarian crisis that the UN authorizes (Balkans/Somalia).
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JT Jag posted:9/11 was a justification they used, but the Bush administration had plans for a war with Iraq from day one. It would happened eventually regardless. And I'm sure they were very very happy they were able to start it in response to 9/11 instead of out of the blue like they'd originally planned. The war was still launched, as officially as it could have been, in response to a terrorist attack, even if the whole premise was bullshit and they were just looking for an excuse.
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Apr 22, 2015 19:58
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Stultus Maximus posted:I can't believe I'm responding to you but the alternatives include initiating a domestic alternative energy "Manhattan Project" and letting the Mideast devolve into the barbaric chaos they seem to want to practice without our interference. If the Chinese or Russians or Australians or Canadians think the stability of the region is that important, they can deal with it. We can even sell them the planes and bombs. And if they don't think it is, we can sell them our cutting edge alternative energy technology. Unfortunately leaving the region alone entirely wouldn't be in our interest. We definitely had a hand in creating various monsters there, and if they're given free reign to run amok, will likely result in further terror attacks world wide. Talmonis fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 20:00
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When you examine OIF, you have to mentally view all descriptors of "Iraq" as meaning "Iran." Iran was pursuing WMDs and supplying AQ with weapons to kill Americans in Afghanistan, so we invaded Iraq.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:01
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Why have I never seen this before? That's really solid analysis; whoever that is should be promoted.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:04
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Amergin posted:Or the fact that liberals skewered Romney for "changing his mind" on things and didn't bother to listen to logically sound and consistent thought processes. I know this is from pages and pages ago, but the first time I heard someone criticized for "flip flopping" was in 2004 against Kerry. I saw conservatives at a Kerry rally literally carrying comically oversized 6ft pairs of foam rubber flip flops. This was because Kerry was critical of the Iraq War even though he had voted to give Bush military powers to invade. It was funny when 8 years later Romney was on every side of every issue and conservatives were silent or aggressively dismissive of any claims that his words were clearly all over the place.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:12
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Stereotype posted:I know this is from pages and pages ago, but the first time I heard someone criticized for "flip flopping" was in 2004 against Kerry. I saw conservatives at a Kerry rally literally carrying comically oversized 6ft pairs of foam rubber flip flops. This was because Kerry was critical of the Iraq War even though he had voted to give Bush military powers to invade. "But they did it fiiiiirst...!" is what I'm hearing.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:14
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The same people were willing to mock a Silver Star / Purple Heart recipient as a coward while praising the guy who flew jets in the national guard as a warrior hero. They don't care about what's actually true.Amergin posted:"But they did it fiiiiirst...!" is what I'm hearing. Funny...all I hear is the sound of a wet fart.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:14
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Amergin posted:"But they did it fiiiiirst...!" is what I'm hearing. ...So? They did it, and they did it first. If it was valid to mock John Kerry for "changing" his position on like one issue, then it's perfectly valid to shred Mitt Romney for changing his position on pretty much every major issue in his party platform. The two are hardly equivalent situations anyway. Looking forward to when Charlie Baker runs for President and has to walk back the pro-choice, pro-gun control ads he ran in Massachusetts.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:18
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Unzip and Attack posted:Funny...all I hear is the sound of a wet fart. That's because your long knives aren't making noise.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:18
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Amergin posted:"But they did it fiiiiirst...!" is what I'm hearing. Man, its gassy in here today.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:18
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yup... it was those drat democrats that dragged us all totally kicking and screaming into Iraq in 03. I think you're making a mistake by not leaving room for an Iraq Invades Kuwait scenario - obvious international law fuckery* that isn't exactly humanitarian in nature. * yeah I know, Saddam had something of a legitimate beef with Kuwait's oil extraction, but still.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:20
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I think you're making a mistake by not leaving room for an Iraq Invades Kuwait scenario - obvious international law fuckery* that isn't exactly humanitarian in nature.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:22
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I think you're making a mistake by not leaving room for an Iraq Invades Kuwait scenario - obvious international law fuckery* that isn't exactly humanitarian in nature. JT Jag posted:Or a war resultant of treaty obligation, like if Putin is dumb enough to actually invade the Baltic States I would assume those would be covered with the "UN authorizes it" clause, but just in case add them to it. My point was that the chance of Hillary starting an Iraq type was is totally non existent and I'd put real money in backing that claim.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:27
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Stereotype posted:also the stuff about how religion is bad and "jesus leaves a bad taste in my mouth". Im more copying the sentiment and citations Religion is neither bad not good. It just is. In any society there will be a dominant religion that will claim a monopoly on morality. Assholes will claim affiliation with the local dominant religion as cover for being horrible people. The more vocal someone is about their religion the more likely they are a horrible person holding their affiliation up as a shield against criticism. Thus public appeals to divine authority - of the local dominant faith - are highly correlated to bad behavior and when I see someone doing it my first response is to try to determine what they are trying to distract me from. Additionally, people doing something because they think God wants them to are unpredictable allies. If you and I arrive to a policy position - or several - for vastly different reasons then we cannot predict agreement on issues that arise in the future. For example - building on a post in another thread-, many religious people square the circle between "God doesn't like abortions" and pro-choice policy positions by looking at the world as it stands now and determining that due to resource scarcity/poverty abortion is necessary to minimize suffering. It's not good or neutral, but it is less bad than the alternative. Or Nixon was famously caught on tape stating that abortion needed to remain legal in case the child would be mixed race. Nixon, Hillary, and I all advocate the same policy position currently, but we do so for vastly different reasons with Nixon and Hillary/random religious person being different flavors of no-choice and me being pro choice. No-choice doesn't mean you insist every pregnancy be completed, it means you are willing to look at a given pregnancy and judge whether or not it should be completed, then try to pressure the mother into abiding by your decision. Saying you want all white babies kept and all mixed race babies aborted is a no-choice position. Saying that abortion needs to be kept legal because it is sometimes necessary while trusting that the vast majority will make the "right" choice given the freedom to do so is also, at heart, a no-choice position. It is a no-choice position bowing to our current reality with a fair amount of optimism mixed in but is still at heart a denial of maternal body autonomy laced with the belief that I was created "for a purpose" and have an obligation to comport myself in accord with the purpose of what the speaker perceives to be my Creator. And yeah, that attitude leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If I was created for a purpose there isn't a human on the planet who knows what it is, including me. But, anywho, we have so much progress to make before these different worldviews would lead to policy disagreements. I mean, you have to solve poverty before it stops being an acceptable excuse for the faithful of my local dominant religion to respect reproductive autonomy ... and that won't happen anytime soon.
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Apr 22, 2015 20:29
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quote:The Clinton campaign told HuffPost they could not confirm the precise language of the quote, but did not distance themselves from its populist essence.  Also, all the Iraq War talk reminded me that I still have no goddamn idea how Jeb Bush is considered a serious potential Republican candidate. Seriously, his brother started a basically never-ending war in a country where we are literally still performing daily bombings. Said bombings almost certainly going to continue throughout Jeb's entire candidacy, and may even be talked about on the news right next to stories about Jeb's candidacy, with probably no link made between the two news items. What brings it from weird to loving absurd is that Jeb's response to the debacle/clusterfuck/quagmire/hellhole that Iraq has become was to literally hire his brother's foreign policy team as his own foreign policy advisers, aka the same people that got us into Iraq in the first place. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 20:59
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Poor Jeb Bush, such a reasonable, smart man, unfairly burdened by his family's reputation.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:01
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But will cyborg Cheney be vice president again?
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Apr 22, 2015 21:02
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JT Jag posted:9/11 was a justification they used, but the Bush administration had plans for a war with Iraq from day one. It would have happened eventually regardless. I hear this claim get slung around a lot, and while I find it entirely believable, hard evidence is nice.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:10
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inthesto posted:I hear this claim get slung around a lot, and while I find it entirely believable, hard evidence is nice. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/ http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/building-momentum-regime-change-rumsfe   
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Apr 22, 2015 21:26
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inthesto posted:I hear this claim get slung around a lot, and while I find it entirely believable, hard evidence is nice. PNAC, on Iraq posted:Shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks, the PNAC sent a letter to President George W. Bush, advocating "a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq", or regime change. The letter suggested that "any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq," even if no evidence surfaced linking Iraq to the September 11 attacks. The letter warned that allowing Hussein to remain in power would be "an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism." From 2001 through the invasion of Iraq, the PNAC and many of its members voiced active support for military action against Iraq, and asserted leaving Saddam Hussein in power would be "surrender to terrorism." Paul Wolfowitz: Paul Wolfowitz posted:As Deputy Secretary of Defense, [Wolfowitz] was "a major architect of President Bush's Iraq policy and ... its most hawkish advocate." In fact, "the Bush Doctrine was largely [his] handiwork." Donald Rumsfeld in his interview with Fox News on February 8, 2011, said that Wolfowitz was the first to bring up Iraq after the 9/11 attacks during a meeting at the presidential retreat at Camp David. And of course let's bring it all home:  Take a look at who's in the center of Jeb's foreign policy diagram, in bright red It's amazing just how much poo poo has been memory-holed (intentionally or not) about the Bush years. Wolfowitz should be on trial for loving war crimes, not Oh, and Jeb Bush is a PNAC signer, if you needed any more evidence that Jeb Bush would happily start Iraq War 3 if given the chance. fade5 fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 21:37
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Washington was built with slave labor at its founding and runs on slave labor today.quote:Every day, I serve food to some of the most powerful people on earth, including many of the senators who are running for president: I’m a cook for the federal contractor that runs the US Senate cafeteria. But today, they’ll have to get their meals from someone else’s hands, because I’m on strike.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:38
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fade5 posted:So did no one notice that "eat the rich" is now basically part of Hillary Clinton's campaign rhetoric? Or does "eat the rich" only count when Bernie says it? Personally, I'm happy to dine on the rich no matter who's at the head of the table serving up body parts. It only counts when it's from a credible source with actions to support it.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:40
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yup... it was those drat democrats that dragged us all totally kicking and screaming into Iraq in 03. Charity is my Patreon campaign. Let's define war, are we limiting it to ground campaign, or will we let air strikes in another country count (eg the Libya situation). And what about expanding an existing war (eg we start drone strikes or spec ops actions in another country)? Unzip and Attack posted:Fair enough, I'll walk back the use of that word because you're right - the use of force in Iraq wasn't literally a pro-genocide measure. It should however be noted that Dick Cheney went on CNN in 1997 and when asked why Desert Storm didn't go into Baghdad, he noted the power vacuum caused by a fall of the Baathists would result in a huge chaotic mess that could trigger another war with Iran or a civil war. I think it's worth noting that even the hawks being aware of the risks of the invasion going south like that doesn't translate to them foreseeing that the Bush administration would gently caress things up as badly as they did. It's pretty easy to look at that interview and see "ok that is an easily foreseeable risk... But since they foresee it they will take steps to make sure it won't happen, rather than doing things that dump gasoline on the fire, right?" That said, I'm in full agreement that she needs to be held over the fire for her vote at every opportunity, if only to A) create a strong political incentive for her not to engage in foreign interventionism and B) to solidify in public memory how completely hosed the decision to go to war was. We had the Gulf of Tonkin morph into "we coulda won if we'd stayed!" And we are already starting to see that message on Iraq. gently caress that noise.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:41
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Rep. Betty McCollum (D-MN) has won the 5th Annual Minnesota Delegation Hotdish Competition with her Turkey, Sweet Potato and Wild Rice Hotdish.   The recipes of all the entries may be found on Senator Franken's site.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:41
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Here is a composite photo of all the entries:
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Apr 22, 2015 21:42
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Unlike in Afghanistan, important to have ideas in advance about who would rule afterward. Oh Rummy, you card.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:43
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Hotdish will never not be terrifying to me.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:43
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All that sodium from the canned soup...
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Apr 22, 2015 21:44
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Joementum posted:Rep. Betty McCollum (D-MN) has won the 5th Annual Minnesota Delegation Hotdish Competition with her Turkey, Sweet Potato and Wild Rice Hotdish. midwest.jpg
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Apr 22, 2015 21:45
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