|
paradoxGentleman posted:I am sorry, I can't quite follow the cause-effect relationships between those and the adaptability of WoD. Could you elaborate? Promethean has one story: The quest for humanity. It tells that story very, very well, but it's still very narrow in focus compared to, say, Vampire or Changeling. Geist always suffered from a "What the hell am I supposed to do?" vibe, kind of stemming from the lack of any mechanical penalties to going out and living your normal life. Your Geist can't really stop you, so why not? There's no conflict created by being a Sin-Eater. Beast has been discussed plenty, and I don't recall them presenting any reason for Beasts to stick together in groups. Even Sin-Eaters might seek each other out just to ask "What the hell happened to me"? Beasts seem like they're meant to be solitary creatures, harvesting their specific kind of fear or whatever. That's something you use as an NPC and often villain, not a protagonist. They talked about them being slotted into other supernatural groups, but I've yet to see exactly what they have to offer.
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 18:20 |
|
|
Boogaleeboo posted:Poor Division Six is such a knock off TFV. TFV is a secret government group taking orders from vampires. Division Six is....a secret government group taking orders from Mages. In fairness, Division 6 predates that particular twist on TFV by two years. The "it's vampires" sidebar appeared in Compacts & Conspiracies, a long time after Witchfinders.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:04
|
|
|
It was also the only "secret background" TFV got, while the Aegis Kai Doru got three different takes on their origin story. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that didn't actually like Valkyrie.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:10
|
|
|
GimpInBlack posted:In fairness, Division 6 predates that particular twist on TFV by two years. The "it's vampires" sidebar appeared in Compacts & Conspiracies, a long time after Witchfinders. And to give my two cents I hate the "it's vampires" sidebar. If it's going to be some mysterious supernatural force with its fingers in the pie to explain contradictory orders, now-you-see-it-now-you-don't funding, and generally inexplicable shenanigans, make it ALL of them. Make TF:V the worst kept secret in the United States Government. Every manipulative Dracula and Merlin and Robot Satan and Zombie Ghost is going to go looking for the men in black and try to screw with them, given the inclination, only to discover that it's standing room only and every attempt to push a lobbyist to divert funding might be met with six more lobbyists coming to break their knees. Simultaneously the most infiltrated, corrupt, and compromised black ops bureau in the government, and bizarrely one of the most effective and reliable because a supernatural infiltrator trying to push an agenda past every other knucklehead with the same bright idea is like all of Mr. Burns' diseases cancelling each other out. It's a colossal honey trap that has the beneficial side effect of actually going out and killing some Draculas too. Meanwhile, I also hate the Cheiron sidebar where it's like "oh no, this conspiracy whose entire thing is that humans turn themselves into monsters to hunt monsters in a literal as well as metaphorical sense are actually controlled by SPACE ALIEN GHOST HUNTERS, not something that actually fits pre-established themes like a board of directors that keep themselves quasi-immortal with the best monster parts and are ripped apart and devoured to salvage the pieces when they're fired/someone else gets promoted."
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:13
|
|
|
I liked the idea that the masters of TFV are patriotic monsters who are 100% behind TFV and fighting for America. It's just so nWoD. edit: Like the Texan rear end in a top hat in that Requiem NPC book!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:31
|
|
|
Kavak posted:They talked about them being slotted into other supernatural groups, but I've yet to see exactly what they have to offer. The idea as presented is definitely that they are intended for crossover group play. For one, they refuel their MP by being present when other supernaturals do that their own way. In terms of benefits, it's pretty on-the-nose: they can directly give dice bonuses to activating other supernatural powers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:33
|
|
|
Kellsterik posted:The idea as presented is definitely that they are intended for crossover group play. For one, they refuel their MP by being present when other supernaturals do that their own way. In terms of benefits, it's pretty on-the-nose: they can directly give dice bonuses to activating other supernatural powers. So what's the theme there? As well as being petty assholes they're fanboys and groupies?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:34
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:So what's the theme there? As well as being petty assholes they're fanboys and groupies? As I understand, in keeping with the 'sandbox' nature of nWoD, it's presenting an alternative Big Setting Idea to the God-Machine stuff that suggests all the supernatural shadowy weirdness of the various gamelines is ultimately connected to a primordial "mother of monsters" that makes all the monsters a kind of family. This ties into some stuff from the Circle of the Crone in particular.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:49
|
|
|
Swagger Dagger posted:You don't need special rules to have John Wayne Gacy in a game. You also don't need supernatural creatures to have something dark and creepy occur for a team of Hunters to investigate. The best example is the "Countrycide" episode of Torchwood (which is basically Hunter but with aliens instead of magic) where all of the horrible disappearances and crazy townsfolk is because they're literally that bad and horrible and not because of some alien parasite or invasion or something.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Teleinformatics began as a program for better profiling of slashers. Testing for the Wintergreen Process tests how well you can think like a slasher. Which is heavily implied throughout the VASCU section. I can see where they're coming from - it's the whole deal in Red Dragon where Harris keeps alluding to the fact that Will Graham isn't so different from Hannibal Lecter or any of the other serial killers who all also happen to have eidetic memories.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
PantsOptional posted:I can see where they're coming from - it's the whole deal in Red Dragon where Harris keeps alluding to the fact that Will Graham isn't so different from Hannibal Lecter or any of the other serial killers who all also happen to have eidetic memories. I'm told that the Hannibal the TV Series can pretty much be seen as a VASCU game, except that oops their psych consultant is Hannibal Lector, king of cannibal food puns ("I would love to have you over for dinner!  ").
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 02:54
|
|
|
Kellsterik posted:As I understand, in keeping with the 'sandbox' nature of nWoD, it's presenting an alternative Big Setting Idea to the God-Machine stuff that suggests all the supernatural shadowy weirdness of the various gamelines is ultimately connected to a primordial "mother of monsters" that makes all the monsters a kind of family. This ties into some stuff from the Circle of the Crone in particular. no; The Dark Mother exists with the God Machine, not instead of. Demons are a completely different thing due to their connection to it, and thus aren't Siblings to them; everything else is, Mages kind of are but not entirely. You're supposed to, I think, take the Beast book as correct here that all the other creatures are descendents of one of The Dark Mother's other children; each of the 5 Beast Splats is an individual child, which is where the 'Big Sibling' comes from; they're basically every other splat's Aunt or Uncle. Beasts can give their Little Siblings buffs and get MP off of them doing their thing in addition to their own; an example is that while a Vampire goes to town on someone in an ally, the Beast sits out on the street and makes sure no one gets curious.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 04:52
|
|
|
Stallion Cabana posted:no; The Dark Mother exists with the God Machine, not instead of. Demons are a completely different thing due to their connection to it, and thus aren't Siblings to them; everything else is, Mages kind of are but not entirely. You're supposed to, I think, take the Beast book as correct here that all the other creatures are descendents of one of The Dark Mother's other children; each of the 5 Beast Splats is an individual child, which is where the 'Big Sibling' comes from; they're basically every other splat's Aunt or Uncle. Sounds like a really lame creation myth, though. I way prefer First Edition nWoD's tone of "we have no loving clue".
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 04:58
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Sounds like a really lame creation myth, though. I way prefer First Edition nWoD's tone of "we have no loving clue". Honestly this was why I never really jumped aboard the God Machine train, I liked that there wasn't a lot in the way of truly codified setting stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 05:23
|
|
|
Omnicrom posted:Honestly this was why I never really jumped aboard the God Machine train, I liked that there wasn't a lot in the way of truly codified setting stuff. I love the God-Machine stuff because of the way it manages to set almost nothing in stone despite being about God and Angels. It expanded on this thing that had been in the original core way back when, contradicted or left unanswered stuff from other settings (like the Principle in Promethean), and I feel you could have the God-Machine show up and go "Well, we really can't tell if it's really God or just a really powerful spirit." in most games. But I can totally understand if you feel it gave away too much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 05:27
|
|
|
The God-Machine has plenty of wiggle-room (There's no reason it can't be the Principle or part of it), but I don't personally like it because it's too overbearing. It's everywhere, with its fingers in everything, and that's too oWoD for me. The weird thing is I like things being codified and explained up to a certain point- oodles of unclassifiable, nightmarish things belong in Call of Cthulhu and such to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 05:33
|
|
|
Omnicrom posted:Honestly this was why I never really jumped aboard the God Machine train, I liked that there wasn't a lot in the way of truly codified setting stuff. It seems like it's the Dark Mother stuff that's trying to slip itself behind all the preexisting material and become a codified creation myth. The God Machine doesn't explain anything, but when you say that all the world's monsters are part of an extended family with roots in astral space you're saying quite a bit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 05:38
|
|
|
Eddy Webb did a Reddit AMA.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 07:17
|
|
|
Highlights?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 07:43
|
|
|
Our ST is turning me, 2nd degree master in a group of vampires, into a living plotdevice. What could possibly go wrong 
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 09:03
|
|
|
Soonmot posted:Highlights?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 11:46
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It seems like it's the Dark Mother stuff that's trying to slip itself behind all the preexisting material and become a codified creation myth. The God Machine doesn't explain anything, but when you say that all the world's monsters are part of an extended family with roots in astral space you're saying quite a bit. Hilariously, who would care? Vampires that really go deep into the idea of researching their past can come to the conclusion there really isn't such a thing as 'vampires'. There are a lot of broadly similar creatures that actually have different sources that just tended to evolve towards a common point. If someone said "Well all those monsters, they came from our Mother", it's not exactly a message they haven't heard before. The Crone would go "See?!" and everyone else would go "Who cares, I'm still hosed now.". Werewolves would say nothing, because you call yourself a Beast and you feed off their breeding stock, so they are probably killing you. Predators don't tend to lay down with other predators, it's ecological stupidity. They don't kill all the spirits/humans because both require each other to function properly. Why does anyone need your Beast? Changelings would say a variation on "Who cares" until they heard about your admiration for the True Fae and how you can invade people's dreamscapes and turn them into monsters, at which point we are back to murder. Prometheans manifestly aren't the children of any Dark Mother. They are made by people and other Prometheans. Any Beast trying to sell the Principle as just another monster is going to have a hard sell on their hands. Sin-Eaters are made of dead people. If all dead people are monsters, effectively everyone is a monster, and thus nobody is. Mummies have their dark gods, and if those gods are actually monsters? They come from a time when distinctions like that mean nothing. They have power, they use it, they are gods. The end. So even if every single word the Beast said was true, it would change nothing and they'd still be a joke to everyone around them. And that's even before a demon walks into the picture and everyone coughs awkwardly and refuses to make eye contact.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 11:48
|
|
|
The image of a Beast trying to befriend with puppy-like enthusiasm all the other supernatural critters by pointing out how they are all related, only to be met with a mixture of disinterest and disdain, is reason enough to use this splat IMHO.
paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:22
|
|
|
Mimir posted:A children's magazine commonly found in waiting rooms at dentists' offices. But that's not important.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 12:36
|
|
|
paradoxGentleman posted:The image of a Beast trying to befriend with puppy-like enthusiasm all the other supernatural critters by pointing out how they are all related, only to be met with a mixture of disinterest and disdain, is reason enough to use this splat IMHO. Ironically, for all the talk about Heroes thinking everything is about them, I feel like a lot of the more interesting/fun ideas for Beasts come from Beats having to come to terms with the fact that its not all about them, either.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 13:15
|
|
|
The Autumn Court of Changelings would probably be all over Beasts. Feed on fear, exploring secret origins of elf-magic? That's completely their thing. Other courts? Not so much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 13:23
|
|
|
paradoxGentleman posted:The image of a Beast trying to befriend with puppy-like enthusiasm all the other supernatural critters by pointing out how they are all related, only to be met with a mixture of disinterest and disdain, is reason enough to use this splat IMHO. The weird cloying ingratiation that seems native to Beasts both in character and metatextually is really off-putting, frankly. Like, prior to there being even any hints of Beast, I was happy to entertain the idea of primordial mothers of monsters, an expanded portfolio for the Crone, the reflection of monsters as concepts in astral space since monsters and humanity are so intertwined, etc... but not if it comes with a bunch of genre-savvy metamonsters who really get off on people being scared but aren't otherwise actually monstrous. But they keep like, leering at actual, grounded monsters and making encouraging gestures and are all "no go on, I just want to watch".
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 15:04
|
|
|
Luminous Obscurity posted:Ironically, for all the talk about Heroes thinking everything is about them, I feel like a lot of the more interesting/fun ideas for Beasts come from Beats having to come to terms with the fact that its not all about them, either. Yeah. I mean, as written right now the theme seems to be that beasts are pathetic and don't notice. A petty rear end in a top hat (or small murderer) desperately trying to be relevant in a frightening world of actual monsters. Reminds me of the Serial Killer Convention in Sandman.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 19:04
|
|
|
The main conflict of the game (Beasts vs Heroes) is made trivial by the fact that the protagonists and antagonists act like internet people having a slapfight. I don't understand why this is the case. It's not compelling at all; I don't wanna roleplay an rear end in a top hat internet nerd because
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
SunAndSpring posted:The main conflict of the game (Beasts vs Heroes) is made trivial by the fact that the protagonists and antagonists act like internet people having a slapfight. I don't understand why this is the case. It's not compelling at all; I don't wanna roleplay an rear end in a top hat internet nerd because Heroes versus Beasts aren't supposed to be the main conflict. Heroes are supposed to be little distractions who think they're bigger and more important then they are that you can generally pretty easily swat aside unless they're really experienced and or you're not completely starving but not completely full either. The actual conflict is supposed to be something like Beasts 'Exploring the Mysteries of the World of Darkness, venturing in the Dark Corners of the world where they're more at home anyway'. It's not surprising you'd not realize this because the majority of the book is made up by talking about Heroes and I'm not really sure where they talk about what a Beast is supposed to be doing otherwise other then as an Enabler for other splats.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
Stallion Cabana posted:Heroes versus Beasts aren't supposed to be the main conflict. It's nice that they're clear that your defining antagonist is a strawman this time. How do you set up a game about ancient mythological horrors and then go make the manifest consequences of their actions a footnote?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
Stallion Cabana posted:The actual conflict is supposed to be something like Beasts 'Exploring the Mysteries of the World of Darkness, venturing in the Dark Corners of the world where they're more at home anyway'. If that's the case than they did a really lovely job at advertising that, because I really didn't get that feeling.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
The people who have a power stat that implies being sedentary are the ones that should be going out and exploring.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
paradoxGentleman posted:If that's the case than they did a really lovely job at advertising that, because I really didn't get that feeling. I only know this because that's what Black Hat Matt said on RPG.net of 'what should Beasts be doing'
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Daeren posted:And to give my two cents I hate the "it's vampires" sidebar. If it's going to be some mysterious supernatural force with its fingers in the pie to explain contradictory orders, now-you-see-it-now-you-don't funding, and generally inexplicable shenanigans, make it ALL of them. Make TF:V the worst kept secret in the United States Government. Every manipulative Dracula and Merlin and Robot Satan and Zombie Ghost is going to go looking for the men in black and try to screw with them, given the inclination, only to discover that it's standing room only and every attempt to push a lobbyist to divert funding might be met with six more lobbyists coming to break their knees. Simultaneously the most infiltrated, corrupt, and compromised black ops bureau in the government, and bizarrely one of the most effective and reliable because a supernatural infiltrator trying to push an agenda past every other knucklehead with the same bright idea is like all of Mr. Burns' diseases cancelling each other out. It's a colossal honey trap that has the beneficial side effect of actually going out and killing some Draculas too. To be honest TFV being a bunch of masterminds fending off against each other is a p win idea and you can make the perfect Deus Ex game if the PCs are newbie agents unraveling the various conspiracies within, just make one of the masterminds a Bob Page motherfucker who is way ahead of the others and is ready to unleash super Morgellons in the world to turn all mankind into obedient ghouls and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:18
|
|
|
Morghoullons
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:The people who have a power stat that implies being sedentary are the ones that should be going out and exploring. Lair is an extra dimensional space in the Astral that's also inside you. Like, I'm pretty sure Lair-building is to Beast what filling a Cipher is to Demon. e:The Dark Mother is clearly the Astral concept of metahuman monsteryness. Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:41
|
|
ErichZahn posted:Lair is an extra dimensional space in the Astral that's also inside you. Like, I'm pretty sure going out to gather experience/feelings/spiritual constructs for Lair-building is to Beast what filling a Cipher is to Demon. Lair could be slang for "power levels" and you could read it with a scouter and it still would be ridiculous that the explorer splat has the sort of terminology that implies being sedentary
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Lair could be slang for "power levels" and you could read it with a scouter and it still would be ridiculous that the explorer splat has the sort of terminology that implies being sedentary This is also the splat where the Antagonists are named Heroes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 18:20 |
|
|
Primal monsters have nothing to do with exploration or randomly meddling with other, realer monsters. There's literally other text in the book describing the actual solving of mysteries as "rude". poo poo, explore the _____ could describe the goals of anyone (sin-eaters explore the dark corners of the underworld where they feel more at home anyway!). And, wait. Exploring somewhere you feel more at home? You know what that actually translates to? "Beasts look for plot hooks." That's it. They try to find something interesting to do because lord knows they've got a shortfall. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 22:33
|
|