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Dead Reckoning posted:Since I've already done ozmunkeh's homework, why don't you tell me which states don't already have mandatory reporting of homicides and deaths in custody at the state level? I'll start you off: California does.
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Apr 23, 2015 00:51
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Obdicut posted:If you know the answer, why not just say it? Why is it someone else's homework? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there are likely very few departments where you can straight blow a dude away and say, "eh, we probably don't need to report that." But, to quote from the article you posted, quote:The structural and technical challenges to compiling uniform data from the 18,000-plus local law enforcement agencies in the US far exceeds the reporting problem, in some cases. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 01:13
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Dead Reckoning posted:Frankly, because I don't know, and because I'm not the one saying it's a problem. It is a problem, though, regardless of who says it, as the BJS report I referenced shows. quote:I happen to be familiar enough with Google and the Cal DoJ website that I could easily find one answer, but maybe Rhode Island doesn't give a gently caress. If Rhythmic Crotch wants to jump in and declare that we need more State level mandatory reporting laws, he can go trawl through the remaining 49 states and figure out which ones aren't currently reporting it. I've already been pretty patient in explaining that, Yes, Virginia, the police do file a report when they kill someone, and providing links to the current state-of-the-art, which literally included a report about the difficulties of deciding what to include in your data set and gathering uniform data. The funny part is, I'm betting someone (maybe even ozmunkeh) will make another swoop & poo poo "lol the cops don't even report it when they gun down an innocent black child in your third world hellhole" in twenty pages or so. Did you read what I posted on the horrible state of these reporting statistics? oh, you did. So you do understand it is a problem. quote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there are likely very few departments where you can straight blow a dude away and say, "eh, we probably don't need to report that." But, to quote from the article you posted, I really don't understand what you're saying. The 10th amendment is only a barrier if the states don't want to report on these statistics.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:16
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http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/04/22/sen-ben-cardin-rep-john-conyers-introduce-end-racial-profiling-act/ http://www.ibtimes.com/end-racial-profiling-act-2015-democratic-us-lawmakers-re-introduce-minority-1892669 Not strictly about police killings, but somewhat related, a bill attempting to address racial profiling by law enforcement including data collection and reporting mandates was reintroduced. I doubt its prospects in a GOP House and Senate are bright, but still, there it is.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:27
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Zwabu posted:http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/04/22/sen-ben-cardin-rep-john-conyers-introduce-end-racial-profiling-act/ "S.1038 - End Racial Profiling Act of [s posted:2013[/s] 2015"]
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Apr 23, 2015 01:34
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Dead Reckoning posted:So the data collection is exactly as "mandatory" as the Deaths in Custody Reporting Act that people were throwing a shitfit about being "voluntary." It's really difficult to understand what you're complaining about.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:So the data collection is exactly as "mandatory" as the Deaths in Custody Reporting Act that people were throwing a shitfit about being "voluntary." This statement would require the amount of funding made available through these specific grant programs to be pretty close to equal. For comparisons, your earlier quote was about the Death in Custody Reporting Act of 2000, which adds requirements for eligibility for Truth-in-Sentencing incentive grants. The S.1038 - End Racial Profiling Act of 2015 adds requirements for the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant Program and the Cops on the Beat Program. I was only able to find limited data without dedicating considerably more time to this than it's worth, but here's a GAO report from 1997 for the Truth-in-Sentencing incentive grants http://www.gao.gov/assets/230/225212.pdf showing a total disbursement of $195,835,725 in 1996 and $234,877,329 in 1997. Here are the reports for the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant Program from 2005 to 2015 https://www.bja.gov/ProgramDetails.aspx?Program_ID=59#horizontalTab8 which for 2005 shows $942,348,426.00 in state-level disbursement and an additional $245,759,140.00 for local departments. Wasn't able to find anything on the Cops on the Beat Program, but it would only be additive to the point in this case. So, maybe a of times more "mandatory" at least, if you put numbers to it. e: Found some info on the Cops on the Beat program here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GAOREPORTS-GGD-96-4/pdf/GAOREPORTS-GGD-96-4.pdf (from 1997), it doesn't have good breakdowns but does include this part: quote:The Community Policing Act authorizes $8.8 billion in grants over a 6-year So also a pretty substantial program. Not sure why I bothered with the research though, since all you're really doing is derailing any discussion critical of police by jumping on any incident you can where someone refers to there being insufficient federal incentives to properly report as "voluntary". It's really loving transparent too. Hilbert Spaceship fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 01:51
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Obdicut posted:It's really difficult to understand what you're complaining about. Well, at the moment it's that no one in this thread seems to have a consistent definition of "voluntary."
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Apr 23, 2015 01:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:Well, at the moment it's that no one in this thread seems to have a consistent definition of "voluntary." I don't understand why that's getting you so twisted up. The heart of the matter is that these statistics are not being collected well, and multiple independent reviews of the data shows this to be the case. The FBIs statistics turned out to be a vast undercount. A large amount of the problem is the paucity of the data as reported by individual law enforcement departments because of a patchwork of reporting laws across the country. This is a significant problem.
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Apr 23, 2015 02:23
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Vahakyla posted:http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/officer-refuses-resort-deadly-force-i-wanted-be-absolutely-sure-n344011 What luck, I correctly guessed the skin color of the suspects.
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Apr 23, 2015 02:40
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JohnClark posted:Again, not a lawyer, but I don't think this is correct. Even though he wasn't tried for murder, he was tried for the potential criminal acts surrounding the death of Rekia Boyd, and jeopardy attaches to the act rather than the specific charge a prosecutor chooses to levy. Otherwise prosecutors could keep you in court theoretically indefinitely while they charge you with each possible crime related to some sequence of events, one at a time. I'm pages kate but I thought DJ was so you couldn't be punished twice. There are lots of crimes that are re-tried again, if the person was found not guilty.
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Apr 23, 2015 02:54
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effectual posted:I'm pages kate but I thought DJ was so you couldn't be punished twice. There are lots of crimes that are re-tried again, if the person was found not guilty. Uh, no?
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Apr 23, 2015 02:55
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effectual posted:I'm pages kate but I thought DJ was so you couldn't be punished twice. There are lots of crimes that are re-tried again, if the person was found not guilty. No the purpose of DJ is so the state can't just keep trying you until they get a guilty verdict, and... no there are no crimes that are tried again if the person was found not guilty.
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Apr 23, 2015 03:29
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effectual posted:What luck, I correctly guessed the skin color of the suspects. Ahohohoaha  quote:With the help of a cop and homeless shelter case manager With the help of  A COP and a person who does this poo poo every day and actually did all of it, this poor man got back on his feet!!!!! Ahahahaha! 
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Apr 23, 2015 03:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:Well, at the moment it's that no one in this thread seems to have a consistent definition of "voluntary."
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Apr 23, 2015 04:19
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SedanChair posted:With the help of Reading the actual article, it would appear the officer actually did a pretty significant amount of work in this case, including actually driving the man around to all of the departments in order to recover his stolen forms of identification so he could claim the money. So that's not an accurate description (though I agree that case workers deserve a great deal more credit than they get). EDIT: Also this. Jarmak posted:The cop was the department's homeless liaison officer, so he also does this poo poo everyday. But yeah, this is a good way of approaching police reform, lets poo poo on any police department who tries to do good things. This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. Quorum fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 07:51
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SedanChair posted:Ahohohoaha The cop was the department's homeless liaison officer, so he also does this poo poo everyday. But yeah, this is a good way of approaching police reform, lets poo poo on any police department who tries to do good things. This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. My Rhythmic Crotch posted:Shine on you crazy diamond Or just straight have no comprehension of how government or policing works.
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Apr 23, 2015 07:54
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Quorum posted:case workers deserve a great deal more credit than they get
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Apr 23, 2015 07:54
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Jarmak posted:This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. The problem with a reform of a government facility is that you can't just walk up and say "change it now," especially with the ever growing seeds of corruption and greed that are appearing in the current "justice" system. You basically have to rally up enough people that the government can't overlook it, then you have to hope that the changes that the law makers come up with to pacify the people aren't worse then the current system, but "look" better. Like, look at this horseshit. This is absolutely corrupt and the definition of unjust, but this happens all of the time, and the people that inflict this type of punishment on people don't even seem to realize, that doing that to people, is also Breaking the law, and one of the founding principles of the country.
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Apr 23, 2015 08:22
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Jarmak posted:The cop was the department's homeless liaison officer, so he also does this poo poo everyday. But yeah, this is a good way of approaching police reform, lets poo poo on any police department who tries to do good things. This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. Pretty much.
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Apr 23, 2015 10:55
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From this link:quote:PORT ORANGE, Fla. —A police officer who crashed his cruiser into the back of a Port Orange man's motorcycle, fatally injuring the motorcyclist, has been issued a careless driving ticket, according to the Florida Highway Patrol. Justice served: careless driving.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:07
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peengers posted:Justice served: careless driving. Oh dear, another oopsie.
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Apr 23, 2015 13:28
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Jarmak posted:The cop was the department's homeless liaison officer, so he also does this poo poo everyday. But yeah, this is a good way of approaching police reform, lets poo poo on any police department who tries to do good things. This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. ActusRhesus posted:Pretty much. The problem with you and AR is that you focus on what seems to be an imagined retoric of people saying "cops bad" forgetting the reason that people say that is because they are being pretty lovely. Cops are not supposed to fill people full of holes and plant weapons on victims. They are not supposed to shoot black people with greater frequency in life threatening situations than white people. If you 2 want to point out a case where a cop does something above and beyond their normal fuctions like Schoolcraft or similare I'm sure most of the thread will be right behind you. But if you want to toss a cookie every time an officer does what he/she is supposed to do then you won't get much traction. Remember, the trend is white victim given benefit of the doubt. Black victim is not. DA's and other Lawyers protect cops at all cost, officers who break the law are given leniency above and beyond what a normal citizen gets. Thats the norm If you want to cry about people people not wanting to cheer the norm then explain to us why we should? Because people deserve better.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:13
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Jarmak posted:The cop was the department's homeless liaison officer, so he also does this poo poo everyday. But yeah, this is a good way of approaching police reform, lets poo poo on any police department who tries to do good things. This is part of whats frustrating about this thread, I'm full in favor of police reform but people seem more interested in red team blue team gently caress the police poo poo then actual reform. My point was, who made it into the headline?
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Apr 23, 2015 15:22
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Yeah but can you Jedi mind-meld every official and prove that every cop and prosecutor isn't just selectively incompetent when it comes to not murdering blacks, not covering up murder, and not loving up prosecutions of same? Didn't think so, looks like everything is fine.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:23
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peengers posted:From this link: You think an unwitnessed collision by a civilian that may have been going the normal speed of traffic would have been charged any differently?
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Apr 23, 2015 15:55
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hobbesmaster posted:You think an unwitnessed collision by a civilian that may have been going the normal speed of traffic would have been charged any differently? He was going 15mph over speed limit.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:07
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but can you Jedi mind-meld every official and prove that every cop and prosecutor isn't just selectively incompetent when it comes to not murdering blacks, not covering up murder, and not loving up prosecutions of same? You've yet to make a compelling case that such errors only occur in cop cases.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:11
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hobbesmaster posted:You think an unwitnessed collision by a civilian that may have been going the normal speed of traffic would have been charged any differently? Wasn't a lady who was hit by a cop earlier in this thread charged with a DUI, despite not being drunk? Anora fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 16:23
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ActusRhesus posted:You've yet to make a compelling case that such errors only occur in cop cases. Nobody thinks prosecutors only make those errors with cops (intentional or not), but we've used our human abilities of friendship and pattern detecting to deduce that gee, prosecutors probably don't try as hard to put their friends in jail as they do some random rear end in a top hat.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:26
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TURN IT OFF! posted:No a civilian going the normal speed probably wouldn't. It is a 6 lane, divided road. I promise you no one except old people are going 50 there. Especially in florida. Also, in california, he'd be charged with vehicular manslaughter, which sounds like a big loving deal, but is a misdemeanor and carries the same points as reckless driving (we don't have careless). Also, everyone eventually goes to trial and walks or gets infraction offers because nothing gets a jury's "there but by the grace of god I go" going than a traffic accident that was clearly an accident and didn't involve drugs or alcohol. And quite frankly, I kind of agree, driving is dangerious, poo poo happens, and that is why we have a civil law system for suing the poo poo out of people. As for cop prosecutions. Remember the distinct advantages the cop has over the average person. They have the I'm a cop thing, which juries love almost as much as "I'm a firefighter" (go try to convict a firefighter on a he said she said, I dare ya). They have no criminal record to impeach them with -- almost all my clients have records and that felony conviction coming out my cause my client to not testify. My client has never testified before and is scared shitless, which can be perceived as lying. Cops are trained to testify and have experence. Cops have character witnesses with clean records who look like the jurors. Mine don't. This is why comparing the records between cop prosecutions and normal people prosecutions don't work. I can tell you having watched both parts of both the BART shooting trials and the Kelly Thomas trials that the prosecution wanted murder convictions in both, tried hard, didn't really gently caress up and both did not get what they wanted. The elected Orange County DA actually spent a huge amount of political capital to prosecute then himself and still lost. nm fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 17:40
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nm posted:It is a 6 lane, divided road. I promise you no one except old people are going 50 there. Especially in florida. Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:55
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TURN IT OFF! posted:Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds. Well, he'd probably get convicted of reckless driving, but again, it's a misdemeanor, and it really should be. Unless you're saying there should be an extra charge for committing a vehicular accident while being a cop.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:59
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TURN IT OFF! posted:Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds. Jury nullification.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:12
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Obdicut posted:Well, he'd probably get convicted of reckless driving, but again, it's a misdemeanor, and it really should be. America: Where killing someone is a misdemeanor - as it should be! Getting hit (as a pedestrian) at 50 mph has a 1 in 4 chance of survival. At just 10 over that the chance of survival is zero. I don't have bike to car survival rates on hand but those figures are at least comparable. Unless you're saying there should be an extra charge for ordering ice cream sundaes while being a cop.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:13
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Lemming posted:Nobody thinks prosecutors only make those errors with cops (intentional or not), but we've used our human abilities of friendship and pattern detecting to deduce that gee, prosecutors probably don't try as hard to put their friends in jail as they do some random rear end in a top hat. Thanks, nancy drew. So, serious question: since the PD below also says you are perhaps not as correct as you think you are, is he just a racist jackboot too?
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Apr 23, 2015 18:14
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TURN IT OFF! posted:America: Where killing someone is a misdemeanor - as it should be! It doesn't loving matter. It's a normal charge and not worthy of police reform. Please don't be a dense loving retard in the thread. Besides that, asshat in traffic is not set out to kill people, so I fail to see the need for a more severe charge anyway.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:17
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TURN IT OFF! posted:Yes the "but everyone else is doing it too" legal defense. It works so well for five-year-olds. What is this stupid bullshit? It also works well when you're talking about breaking the speed limit on the highway, since if everyone else is doing it not doing it is unsafe.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:26
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ActusRhesus posted:Thanks, nancy drew. So, serious question: since the PD below also says you are perhaps not as correct as you think you are, is he just a racist jackboot too? I wasn't talking about the case where the cop hit the guy on the motorcycle.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:30
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I actually do believe that hitting someone when driving 15 over the speed limit and killing them should be more than a misdemeanor. But maybe that just makes me crazy. SSJ_naruto_2003 fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:31
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