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No see Bendis has this really good explanation you just have to wait for it the explanation will come 10 issues later and be in the form of a punchline.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:48
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don't worry guys gay teenager expert bryan singer is totally okay with this http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/bryan-singer-weighs-in-on-icemans-outing
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Apr 23, 2015 12:54
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Blockhouse posted:don't worry guys gay teenager expert bryan singer is totally okay with this I just made a face like a guy who was just told he has to drink his own urine to survive.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:59
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Bryan Singer doesn't care, because deep down he knows that Top Gun already gave cinema it's definitive gay Iceman.
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Apr 23, 2015 13:00
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Nah Singer doesn't care because he already knew what Iceman's sexuality was in 2000
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Apr 23, 2015 13:02
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He did say, though, that the "have you tried not being a mutant" scene was in fact just meant to reference the general mutants = LGBT allegory and not anything specific about Bobby, though. Which is how I always took it, since that allegory has been a big thing for a really long time.
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Apr 23, 2015 13:05
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Honestly though, I remember back in 2003 most nerds would absolutely refuse to admit or acknowledge that the "Have you tried not being a mutant" thing had anything whatosever to do with gay issues, subtext, or even humor because -- and I'm not kidding or exaggerating in the least here -- they'd be positively livid at the suggestion that the precious masterpiece X-2 could have any allusions to gay issues despite the director and multiple actors being LGBT, along with the fact that it's a friggin' X-Men story. A lot has changed in ten years. ...That being said, that was a pretty dumb interview.  "And now, to weigh in on this gripping controversial development, is someone who had virtually nothing to do with it and barely even knows what's going on."I actually found, of all things, this Playboy article about the issue to be pretty interesting and insightful.
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Apr 23, 2015 14:49
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Saoshyant posted:And Karma was in the Jean Grey School taking care of that kid with the exploded out face as per New Mutants, but don't let any of that get in the way of Bendis "I throw darts at random to make plots". It's the editor's job to tell him what characters he can or cannot use. This is why people complain about continuity in regards to comics. "Sorry, you can't use this character because they were randomly killed off in a mini-series in one panel" is the stupidest goddamn thing. If the editor wanted to nix the usage of any of the characters, they could have. Otherwise they already know the pitch and what's going to happen and have agreed that's better than just letting some character wallow in limbo because 2 years ago in some low-selling book this character was set up as doing this and BY GOD THAT'S WHERE THEY'LL STAY! But I guess Bendis is the hackiest hack that ever hacked and how does he know how to write! I could write better stories than this hack.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:14
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Codependent Poster posted:It's the editor's job to tell him what characters he can or cannot use. I'm still not entirely convinced Marvel has had an editor in the last decade.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:17
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Lurdiak posted:I'm still not entirely convinced Marvel has had an editor in the last decade. I just think it's silly to not allow a writer to use a character if they have a good pitch for them or want to take them from limbo/death. Like Grant Morrison wanted to use Colossus, which probably would have been great, but couldn't because he was dead.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:22
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Codependent Poster posted:I just think it's silly to not allow a writer to use a character if they have a good pitch for them or want to take them from limbo/death. Like Grant Morrison wanted to use Colossus, which probably would have been great, but couldn't because he was dead. Would Emma Frost have gotten into his cast if he had Colossus? Cause Emma and Cyke was the best (and possibly only) thing to come out of that run unscathed by retcons, well until Bendis got his hands on them.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:27
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An editors job is to review stories and yes, check continuity. If a writer wants to use Character X and that character is dead/off planet/in the Avengers, suggest a similar character to fill the role. Or at least have them address why they are no longer dead/off planet/with the Avengers.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:57
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The breakup stuff was in AvX, which wasn't Bendis.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:57
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I must be a glass half full kind of guy because I enjoyed ANXM. Yeah, it's a bit hamfisted and yeah, you could say it comes out of nowhere but once you accept the setup, I think it's an interesting situation. I'm a softie so as corny as it was, I liked the "of course it's okay, you're among people who love you" bit. It underlines how even inside a minority who already faces reject, you can still fear being ostracized. I won't lose sleep over the old Bobby part as "these were different times and he eventually convinced himself to ignore it" doesn't sound unbelievable at all to me. Hell, with proper writing, old Bobby finding out young Bobby is gay could be pretty interesting. I'm super curious to see who Bobby is going to date. I hear Hawkguy is looking for people he hasn't hosed yet. Lurdiak posted:I'm still not entirely convinced Marvel has had an editor in the last decade.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:59
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I once heard that Bendis's editors spend most of their time correcting his spelling, but it was probably a joke. 
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Apr 23, 2015 16:03
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Codependent Poster posted:I just think it's silly to not allow a writer to use a character if they have a good pitch for them or want to take them from limbo/death. I do too, but in this case we were talking about recent comics, not something that came out years ago, and your argument thus makes little sense. Yes, an editor would have helped, but it's a shared universe. A writer should read some of the more important comics in the line or at least have a passing familiarity with what happened in them. At the very least. The thing is Bendis acts like a diva. The X-Men are his. Other writers are to follow his guidelines for the line. Why would he care what they are doing? Codependent Poster posted:Like Grant Morrison wanted to use Colossus, which probably would have been great, but couldn't because he was dead. And he turned that into gold, making incredible good use of Emma Frost which had been pretty much forgotten, introducing a new concept into the X-Men mythos that allowed more freedom to other writers (secondary mutations), and creating the more enduring and interesting relationship of Scott-Emma. Good writers know how to work around limitations. Good writers have a plan. Bendis is working at Marvel at a time there are basically no limitations and he has no common sense to put some into what he is doing himself. He has no plan other than making "cool" scenes and "shocking twists" (examples include Dark Beast's nanotechs, the ending of Xavier's Will and the recent development that started this discussion in the first place). Yes, he is a goddamn hack. If you enjoy his work the more power to you, but c'mon, defending the guy by saying "I'm sure you write better than him" is the lamest defense.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:05
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Wheat Loaf posted:I once heard that Bendis's editors spend most of their time correcting his spelling, but it was probably a joke. Good chance its a Lois Lane joke.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:05
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Wheat Loaf posted:I once heard that Bendis's editors spend most of their time correcting his spelling, but it was probably a joke.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:I once heard that Bendis's editors spend most of their time correcting his spelling, but it was probably a joke. Edit: 
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Apr 23, 2015 16:25
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PelvicNerve posted:I'm super curious to see who Bobby is going to date. I hear Hawkguy is looking for people he hasn't hosed yet.  Hawkguy is like 35. I mean, even as a joke - which, I get it, I get jokes - that's pretty gross, dude. Unless you meant present Bobby.Actually, just spinning off that, the only younger male LGBT characters I can think of in Bobby's age range are Anole and Quentin Quire. They could always come up with someone new or make another character bi, I guess, though. I do hope Marvel actually runs with this and don't just leave Bobby out in the cold (  ) when it comes to relationships going forward.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:34
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Endless Mike posted:Read early Powers, and no, it's really not. I see. I've also heard that his scripts used to contain a whole ton of bad language but I've never seen an early Bendis script to confirm. Any truth to that?
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Apr 23, 2015 16:38
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Waterhaul posted:Gay guys do that too. Gay guys aren't sexually attracted to lots of women. It's a retcon, you can't just explain it away as if he was actually gay for the last 50 years. It clearly makes no sense and they're gonna have to fudge his history a lot to make it make sense or...change 05 Bobby straight, which obviously isn't happening.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:38
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Gay guys aren't sexually attracted to lots of women. It's a retcon, you can't just explain it away as if he was actually gay for the last 50 years. It clearly makes no sense and they're gonna have to fudge his history a lot to make it make sense or...change 05 Bobby straight, which obviously isn't happening. You seem to be really mad about this as you've never posted in this thread before but yes, they do. You really don't know what you're talking about. I get it that you're mad at them retconning someone's sexuality but it's not something for you to "make sense" of.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:42
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Gay guys aren't sexually attracted to lots of women. It's a retcon, you can't just explain it away as if he was actually gay for the last 50 years. It clearly makes no sense and they're gonna have to fudge his history a lot to make it make sense or...change 05 Bobby straight, which obviously isn't happening. But they sure can fake it and try real hard to convince themselves they are. I dunno, I'm a lady gay, so perhaps my experience is at a total disconnect from that of gay males, but I sure spent a lot of high school and college dating dudes and trying/failing to figure out why it wasn't working. I genuinely liked these dudes and enjoyed spending time with them! I just couldn't figure out what the gently caress I was doing wrong, and then the relationships would end sort of messily because I just wasn't into them enough no matter how bad I thought I should be. Gay people can definitely date and even have sex with opposite-sex folks in an effort to Make It Work and not understand what's actually going on. Repression and denial are powerful forces. I mean, also it's a retcon, they can do whatever they want and justify it however. We can assume history will indeed be hosed around with. That's what retcons do. This one could at least make for interesting storytelling going forward even if it doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense. I do think making him bisexual would have made more sense, but here we are.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:46
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Gay guys aren't sexually attracted to lots of women. It's a retcon, you can't just explain it away as if he was actually gay for the last 50 years. It clearly makes no sense and they're gonna have to fudge his history a lot to make it make sense or...change 05 Bobby straight, which obviously isn't happening. Yes to society pressures and family gay guys would never date women and try to make it work. That has never happened and does not happen at all.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:46
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Yeah, I mean, who doesn't at least know of someone who came out as gay after being married? And if any of the original X-Men is going to be particularly repressed, I would certainly believe it to be the one whose family has already been shown to be bigoted (not against gays, but it's not really hard to imagine someone who is anti-mutant as anti-gay, as well).
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Apr 23, 2015 16:52
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Waterhaul posted:You seem to be really mad about this as you've never posted in this thread before but yes, they do. You really don't know what you're talking about. I get it that you're mad at them retconning someone's sexuality but it's not something for you to "make sense" of. You get a kick out of calling people mad. I read lots of comics but this is obviously a more interesting topic than what there usually is to talk about, which is why this thread has exploded. I heard the news, came in to see the chatter and saw some stuff I thought was dumb so, like your typical goon, I voiced my opinion. I just dislike the idea that people think Bobby's past behavior is something gay guys do -- and I'm not talking dating women, I mean stuff like pubescent attraction to girls and inner monologues about finding girls attractive and subconsciously sending ice clones to people he found attractive and liked growing up and all of them being girls and blah blah. Stuff like "He has failed relationship with women, no wonder he's gay!" is really bad stereotyping. You don't read his past relationship with Kitty and Opal and any of his inner monologues and think "Yeah he's just pretending to be straight." He was straight because that was the norm and he was a straight guy back then. You guys are the ones trying to make sense of it. I'm telling you how there is no sense to it. It's your bog standard retcon that doesn't actually line up with all the stuff in the past, which happens all the time. You shouldn't be jumping through hoops to try to make it make sense by saying "All that stuff Bobby's done for all these years is something gay guys CAN do!" You're looking into something that obviously wasn't ever there because Bobby was never gay until right now. A Tin Of Beans posted:But they sure can fake it and try real hard to convince themselves they are. I dunno, I'm a lady gay, so perhaps my experience is at a total disconnect from that of gay males, but I sure spent a lot of high school and college dating dudes and trying/failing to figure out why it wasn't working. I genuinely liked these dudes and enjoyed spending time with them! I just couldn't figure out what the gently caress I was doing wrong, and then the relationships would end sort of messily because I just wasn't into them enough no matter how bad I thought I should be. Gay people can definitely date and even have sex with opposite-sex folks in an effort to Make It Work and not understand what's actually going on. Repression and denial are powerful forces. bobkatt013 posted:Yes to society pressures and family gay guys would never date women and try to make it work. That has never happened and does not happen at all. I'm a guy bisexual who was really interested in men and I grew up in the deep south so I know a thing or two about being closeted, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying, really. I could be straight or gay and my point isn't about "It's so awful that Bobby is now gay," my point is "You guys should stop trying to pretend that things Bobby did in the past were just him exhibiting closeted behavior because he was never gay back then." You guys are acting like I'm saying "no gay guy has ever tried to date women." Of course that's happened. But trying to pawn off Bobby's history as that act is silly. It could make sense if he was bisexual because, well, that would explain being sexually attracted to those women (and not just outwardly!). Basically my point is it's cool we got a major gay x-man character but the writing is really bad up to this point and we shouldn't be trying to logically justify it by tossing as many abstractions of closeted behavior as we can onto Bobby's very long history. My secondary point is there isn't a character in comics I hate more than Jean. Forcefully outing someone is not a good experience and Bendis portrayed it like a dolt. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 17:03
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A Tin Of Beans posted:
I notice that meanwhile, people aren't lingering on Warren or Kitty, who were also part of this huge soap opera Wednesday. Hell, even Scott probably had a big sentimental thing in Black Vortex. My first thought about his heart change was that he doesn't/won't love Jean anymore.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:15
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TwoPair posted:On that note, Charles Soule killed Elixir in one of the Death of Wolverine tie-ins, so put another tally on the "Bendis doesn't give a poo poo about things he personally didn't write" board. I'm fine with that being ignored because it was moronic that X-23 would stand by and let him be killed considering their history. I mean I'm sure his characterisation will get hosed up, but at least he'll be alive again for another writer to fix.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:21
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Bendis has rarely written LGBT characters in his career, and when he has he's never addressed their sexuality in more than a cursory manner, so I'm not surprised that the result of his attempting to tackle a coming-out storyline leaves something to be desired.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:44
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He has created some though, which is more than a lot of people in Marvel have done. Granted creating Hand and having Deodoto on art wasn't the best idea.Two Tone Shoes posted:You get a kick out of calling people mad. I read lots of comics but this is obviously a more interesting topic than what there usually is to talk about, which is why this thread has exploded. I heard the news, came in to see the chatter and saw some stuff I thought was dumb so, like your typical goon, I voiced my opinion. I just dislike the idea that people think Bobby's past behavior is something gay guys do -- and I'm not talking dating women, I mean stuff like pubescent attraction to girls and inner monologues about finding girls attractive and subconsciously sending ice clones to people he found attractive and liked growing up and all of them being girls and blah blah. Stuff like "He has failed relationship with women, no wonder he's gay!" is really bad stereotyping. You don't read his past relationship with Kitty and Opal and any of his inner monologues and think "Yeah he's just pretending to be straight." He was straight because that was the norm and he was a straight guy back then. It's a retcon, it's going to change and askew continuity, not everything is going to match up. You don't have to like the writing or the characters, all I'm saying is this quote:I'm not talking dating women, I mean stuff like pubescent attraction to girls and inner monologues about finding girls attractive and subconsciously sending ice clones to people he found attractive and liked growing up and all of them being girls and blah blah is stuff gay guys do. You can hate the retcon, you can roll your eyes at how it's written, but there's no definite way on how people act. That's my point.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:21
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Barry Convex posted:Bendis has rarely written LGBT characters in his career, and when he has he's never addressed their sexuality in more than a cursory manner, so I'm not surprised that the result of his attempting to tackle a coming-out storyline leaves something to be desired. Frankly, a LGBT character's sexuality shouldn't come up in more than a cursory most of the time, so it sounds like he's the right man for the job. I'd much rather that than the situation where it becomes their whole character.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:25
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Waterhaul posted:He has created some though, which is more than a lot of people in Marvel have done. Granted creating Hand and having Deodoto on art wasn't the best idea. That poo poo should count as a -1 to the cause.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:26
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Waterhaul posted:He has created some though, which is more than a lot of people in Marvel have done. Granted creating Hand and having Deodoto on art wasn't the best idea. You're not "full gay" if you are sexually and romantically attracted to women. You can be predominantly gay and such but they pretty clearly quashed that with the insipid 'Maybe I'm bi' part of the conversation. I don't hate the retcon, stop putting words in my mouth. Yes, I think it's stupidly written and I think the conversation Jean and Bobby had was awful from start to finish, but there's nothing wrong with Iceman being gay now and the retcon happening. I think it's stupid to try to justify Iceman's history as the act of a gay man pretending to be straight because that's clearly not what happened. They're going to retroactively make it that way, maybe redo some scenes in some flashbacks with him and Opal and him and Kitty, but that's all part of the retcon engine. "Subconsciously sending ice clones to everyone you ever found attractive or interesting and 100% of them being women" is not something gay guys do, for sure. Unless all gay guys have ice powers in which case they've been holding out on me.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:28
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Two Tone Shoes posted:You're not "full gay" if you are sexually and romantically attracted to women. I had a feeling this was coming. gently caress off with this. Edit: Christ I'm taking a break from this before I get inordinately mad at talking about comic books. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:30
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Two Tone Shoes posted:I think it's stupid to try to justify Iceman's history as the act of a gay man pretending to be straight because that's clearly not what happened. But it is what happened. The writers just didn't know it at the time.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:34
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I think it'd be best for everyone if we stopped trying to dictate what real life sexuality is like and focused more on the actual writing of the comics.NmareBfly posted:But it is what happened. The writers just didn't know it at the time. 
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Apr 23, 2015 18:57
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Waterhaul posted:He has created some though, which is more than a lot of people in Marvel have done. Granted creating Hand and having Deodoto on art wasn't the best idea. I may not be up on my LGBTQA terminology but I think if you're sexuality attracted to both women and men, you're not gay. It's fine to just say "hey it's a retcon, plenty of retcons ignore previous stuff", especially if it's gonna bring in a new interesting take on a character and bring in some diversity. But this thing where you're dead set on saying "hey there's plenty of gay guys that are genuinely just as sexually attracted to women as they are to men" is kind of weird. edit: Like if you wanna argue "although he really may have loved those women in a sense, maybe even romantically, he wasn't really sexually interested, he was trying to play straight and in denial, which is what doomed those relationships" that's totally cool and it's a real thing people do and I don't have a problem with that. But it doesn't sound like you're saying that? XboxPants fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:01
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A Tin Of Beans posted:
Haha why would you write LGBT for him to date when he's gay now i guess. This was really stupid and people trying to rationalize it are insane. He was just pretending for 50 years and it took a major violation of his privacy after a space adventure to reveal it. Just loving awful. Ramadu fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:10
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Quire's queer? I missed that. Edit: I think Prodigy is still being written in that age group, also? He's bisexual.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:34
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