Ferrinus posted:Prime al monsters have nothing to do with exploration or randomly meddling with other, realer monsters. There's literally other text in the book describing the actual solving of mysteries as "rude". poo poo, explore the _____ could describe the goals of anyone (sin-eaters explore the dark corners of the underworld where they feel more at home anyway!). And, wait. Exploring somewhere you feel more at home? "Plays well in crossovers" apparently means "has no objectives that might conflict with the rest of the party". And poo poo, you can easily think of enough things that could motivate creatures like Beasts that it's ridiculous we have nothing better than "creep on other splats" and "beat up fedoramen".
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Apr 22, 2015 23:05
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Morghoullons
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Apr 22, 2015 23:53
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"Who controls Task Force Valkyrie" would actually be a great game from almost any splat's perspective. You have the Deus Ex-style Hunter game where you try to work out who's behind all these crazy conflicting orders and weird conspiracies. Vampires, Mages, Demons and Changelings (and angels!) can all have a fun game trying to stick their fingers in the pie to point them at things they don't like and wrest control from the other supernaturals. You could work in the other gamelines but they're probably a little less into the whole political game.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:42
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Speaking of Beasts, we just got a Changeling 2.0 preview. Welp.
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Apr 23, 2015 11:29
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Speaking of Beasts, we just got a Changeling 2.0 preview. Did they have to pick a seeming to spoil that has the exact same name as a different gameline also being discussed a lot a the moment? Going to be very confusing. UrbicaMortis fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 11:42
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Seemings are altered so that now your decision to leave arcadia is locked into your Wyrd profile, rather than being a moment of humanity. A seeming perk of being able to, once per story, gain a point of clarity. Meaning that Clarity is just another powerstat of fae design rather than a difficult piece of humanity countered by fae madness. lol nope sorry 2E, I'm sure y'all tried really hard.
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Apr 23, 2015 11:54
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quote:They’re a wet dream made flesh when they’re turned on, which is common, Thanks for that, White Wolf.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:20
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Edit: ^^^ Yeah, like that seems a bit much.Gerund posted:Seemings are altered so that now your decision to leave arcadia is locked into your Wyrd profile, rather than being a moment of humanity. From what Hill has been saying, Clarity is going to be a bit more fluid to fit better with the sanity/madness theme that it had. So that might wind up working out alright. He mentioned doing a post on it at some point, so we'll see then I guess. As far as Lost's Beasts go, I'm down with them being defined by Id/instinct, but I feel like the focus on breaking taboos is a bit... OWOD-ish. IDK, maybe I just have PTSD from Changing Breeds.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:21
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Oh come on now, Changeling Beasts have had elements of sexuality since 1E, and it's not like it doesn't make sense given their archetype. Speaking of, in the comments David said that all Seemings have blessings and curses regarding Clarity. This is something with potential, depending on how they define Clarity in 2E.
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Apr 23, 2015 12:24
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Edit: ^^^ Yeah, like that seems a bit much. I don't like how the decision to have Seeming typify and define lock in character's internal struggle. It sacrifices the major benefit of C:tL to allow for the widest possible variety of characters. In 2e every Beast is a non-conformist anti-cage rebel. My own thing about Clarity is that I see the game using a more brittle, glass-like structure to make the decent into madness horrifying and have impact. Long, incremental gains to reconstruct an identity with counseling or harsh, dangerous Jupiter dreams rather than just popping your magic superpower to feel better about yourself.
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Apr 23, 2015 14:26
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UrbicaMortis posted:Did they have to pick a seeming to spoil that has the exact same name as a different gameline also being discussed a lot a the moment? Going to be very confusing.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:01
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Gerund posted:I don't like how the decision to have Seeming typify and define lock in character's internal struggle. It sacrifices the major benefit of C:tL to allow for the widest possible variety of characters. In 2e every Beast is a non-conformist anti-cage rebel. I don't think it necessarily sacrifices variety, but you do have to consider both Seeming and Kith to reach the result that you are aiming for for your character. Want to play an ox or bull that was forced to till the Keeper's fields until he bled or worse, and escaped by taking an hidden bite out of the Hedge that surrounded the mansion every day until it was weak enough to make a run for it? Pick a Wizened, or maybe an Elemental, and give it an ox-appropriate kith. A snake that convinced with honeyed lies one of the zookepers to keep his cage open? Fairest with reptile kith. I don't know about the Clarity thing, though. Maybe they are trying to convey the idea that a Changeling's sanity is fragile, something that can get very well or very worse quickly; but your idea is just as valid.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:20
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I heard you guys like blogs about Beasts. Guess the line! Interesting that you might build a Nightmare from Vampires, from Mekhet, or indeed specifically from Bob your vampire bud. Would be interesting to see those Kinship nightmare creation rules. Also, weird that the sample nightmares don't have a dramatic failure listed. e: Also, All Your Teeth Are Falling Out is crushing in combat at high satiety or when spending satiety.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:59
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paradoxGentleman posted:I don't think it necessarily sacrifices variety, but you do have to consider both Seeming and Kith to reach the result that you are aiming for for your character. Want to play an ox or bull that was forced to till the Keeper's fields until he bled or worse, and escaped by taking an hidden bite out of the Hedge that surrounded the mansion every day until it was weak enough to make a run for it? Pick a Wizened, or maybe an Elemental, and give it an ox-appropriate kith. A snake that convinced with honeyed lies one of the zookepers to keep his cage open? Fairest with reptile kith.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:14
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paradoxGentleman posted:I don't think it necessarily sacrifices variety, but you do have to consider both Seeming and Kith to reach the result that you are aiming for for your character. Want to play an ox or bull that was forced to till the Keeper's fields until he bled or worse, and escaped by taking an hidden bite out of the Hedge that surrounded the mansion every day until it was weak enough to make a run for it? Pick a Wizened, or maybe an Elemental, and give it an ox-appropriate kith. A snake that convinced with honeyed lies one of the zookepers to keep his cage open? Fairest with reptile kith. I admit that it is possible that the 6 + 1 seemings can approximate the breadth of all worthy motivations to have escaped your Durance, AND have an breaking point that matches the character idea, AND have an internal Clarity-regain superpower that matches the character. However I wouldn't bet my life on it, and it is definitely a rules addition that I would excise immediately because it also alters Clarity from a fragile object into something fluid and arbitrary and even less tied to the choices you as a player made during the game.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:14
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Flavivirus posted:I heard you guys like blogs about Beasts. Guess the line! Since the Dramatic Failure, Failure, and regular Success results of Nightmares are the same for every one, there's a single "Invoking a Nightmare" action at the beginning of the section rather than reprinting a whole lot of "The Nightmare fails to take effect" and "The Nightmare takes effect, see below" for every single Nightmare. Probably allowed me to squeeze three or four more powers in than I would have been able to otherwise. As far as All Your Teeth Are Falling Out, the High Satiety effect is pretty nasty in a fistfight, yeah, but it doesn't do anything to weapon damage ratings, so it's not exactly insurmountable. Satiety Expenditure can be pretty nasty if you go into a one-on-one fight full and you're willing to come out starving, for sure, but you're also facing diminishing returns with each activation.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:21
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Huh, there's a bit of flavour text in the Beast leak that describes what the Irraka werewolf "once per chapter you can just declare that you're behind somebody" power looks like. It's not a narrative device, it's actually a literal anime murder teleport power. A woman disappears and reappears a moment later with a knife in her victim. Not quite what I expected.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:22
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Doodmons posted:Huh, there's a bit of flavour text in the Beast leak that describes what the Irraka werewolf "once per chapter you can just declare that you're behind somebody" power looks like. It's not a narrative device, it's actually a literal anime murder teleport power. A woman disappears and reappears a moment later with a knife in her victim. Not quite what I expected. That was my favorite spell in the original Fable.
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Apr 23, 2015 16:54
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GimpInBlack posted:As far as All Your Teeth Are Falling Out, the High Satiety effect is pretty nasty in a fistfight, yeah, but it doesn't do anything to weapon damage ratings, so it's not exactly insurmountable. Satiety Expenditure can be pretty nasty if you go into a one-on-one fight full and you're willing to come out starving, for sure, but you're also facing diminishing returns with each activation. That's the one where your natural weaponry goes to poo poo, right? Sorry, but whispering "you should've been spending XP on weaponry and carrying a chainsaw around" into a Gangrel or werewolf's ear doesn't really justify something like that. Hey, guys, archetypical monster and monster-enabler here, kin to all the creatures that haunt the dark! Yeah I can make a werewolf's claws and fangs stop working. It just seems appropriate, you know? Also, who cares if it costs mana? Most powers do. EDIT: Oh, wait, that's not what it does at all. It actually fucks weapon users up just as much as brawlers. My god, this thing is a beating! But does it defeat healing to full every turn or taking only one damage from every attack or whatever the hell else? Who would ever want to actually play a game in which they find out? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 17:58
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paradoxGentleman posted:Oh come on now, Changeling Beasts have had elements of sexuality since 1E, and it's not like it doesn't make sense given their archetype. I don't actually recall that being a focus off the top of my head, but even if it were, it doesn't excuse a line as laughable as that one. Edit: While I understand that there is a theoretical market of people out there who do love to play sex games with their WW/OPP products, and that because I will never game with or even really understand these people I should easily just ignore these portions of the text, it would make it all a lot easier if they weren't also embarrassingly-written. Crion fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:01
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Ferrinus posted:That's the one where your natural weaponry goes to poo poo, right? Sorry, but whispering "you should've been spending XP on weaponry and carrying a chainsaw around" into a Gangrel or werewolf's ear doesn't really justify something like that. Hey, guys, archetypical monster and monster-enabler here, kin to all the creatures that haunt the dark! Yeah I can make a werewolf's claws and fangs stop working. It just seems appropriate, you know? All Your Teeth Are Falling Out reduces your rolled successes to 1 (or 2 on an exceptional success). Weapon ratings apply damage on top of your rolled successes. So if you've got 2L weapons, whether that's your claws or fangs or a knife or whatever, that damage still applies--a normal success would inflict 3 lethal damage in our example, while an exceptional one would inflict 4. Unless you've got a crazy high dice pool odds are you're effectively losing 2-3 damage per hit. If you're a straight-up brawler dude getting into a fight with a Beast and you have no natural weapons at all, yeah, it will ruin your day, but honestly, if you're a mundane brawler-type dude getting into a scrap with just about any supernatural critter it's going to ruin your day. Also, Satiety cost in Beast != Mana cost in other WoD games.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:29
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Of course Satiety's mana. It doesn't matter that weapon ratings apply on top of your rolled successes - that's true for both combatants. The thing is, after the power gets used (assuming extra Satiety DIDN'T get spent - if it did, the other guy can just plain give up, because come on) the Beast is dealing successes + weapon damage while the victim is dealing 1 + weapon damage. The more powerful you are, the more attack dice you're rolling and the more your actual rolled successes are contributing to combat (especially because you're benefitting from -again rules or whatever) except, oops, now they're not. Sure, there are powers which work by adding autodamage rather than by adding or improving dice, but that's only a portion of what makes a supercombatant work. In a system like this one that lets you specialize and specialize and specialize some more, you can't afford to just lose half your poo poo.
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Apr 23, 2015 18:39
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Crion posted:I don't actually recall that being a focus off the top of my head, but even if it were, it doesn't excuse a line as laughable as that one. Just out of curiosity, did you have a similar reaction when reading the Daeva section of Blood and Smoke? Because that is ten times as lewd as this one. I was kind of taken aback when reading that one, but it didn't spoil the book for me; I expect the same thing will happen here. Ferrinus posted:Of course Satiety's mana. It really isn't though. For starters, Satiety is rolled to use this very power, meaning that reducing it to power up the Nightmare means making it harder to use in the future. And if it drops under a certain Satiety threshold, it becomes much weaker, meaning that there is an hard limit on how much you can abuse this. On top of that, having high satiety means attracting Heroic attention, so having this scary power means having an additional hassle to deal with. Also there is another set of powers, Atavisms, that are more powerful the lower your Satiety is. I really don't get where you got that impression. Also also we don't know how much satiety is meant to fluctuate in play so hold your horses a little longer. e: rereading your post, I get the impression that this Nightmare is an hard counter for single, very powerful enemies as opposed to hordes of weaker ones. I guess it could use a bit of fine tuning, but it's not too late for that. I suggest informing the OPP people at their blog, they seem to be very willing to listen. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:07
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paradoxGentleman posted:It really isn't though. You spend Satiety to activate or amp up your powers and then find ways to regain it. It's mana. "This costs mana" is not a good excuse for something to be overpoweringly strong; everyone has stuff that costs mana, and everyone has ways to regain mana. Atavisms make having low mana even less of a problem than it is on most characters! Oh, no, you spent all this satiety and now you have to TP someone's house to get it back? That's rough, buddy. I, myself, don't have a phone, and it causes me no end of woe.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:12
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paradoxGentleman posted:It was not the only thing going on with Beasts, but it wqs certainly there. I passed on Blood and Smoke for a number of reasons, mainly because if I'm not planning on running a Vampire game I've got no good excuse for subjecting myself to Vampire fluff writing. That would seem to confirm this. And I just reread the Beast section in core Changeling 1E, which confirmed that the vast majority of the time they substitute "passion" and the like for actual talk about sex, and don't feel the need to talk about how and how often Beasts, in general, get horny. It's kind of weird in general that the Beast 2E intro text is telling me my placid, contemplative elephant-themed Broadback Beast from Changeling 1E is now a dude whose interest in getting in bar fights is only rivaled by his interest in fuckin'. Perhaps there will be rules in the finished version for playing Beasts other than tough loner sexwolves. Also, seriously. quote:They’ve got wild eyes and untamed hearts. They’re reckless, passionate, and dangerous. They’re a wet dream made flesh when they’re turned on, which is common, they’re walking nightmares when they’re angry, which is also common. The Beast has reached inside, found her animal self, and embraced her id. The animal inside of her kept her alive at the worst times. Humanity has failed her, failed her when she was the most in need, and so she rejected it. Did the core themes of Changeling: the Lost get completely flipped between editions? This reads like a copy/paste from Werewolf or Beast, the game line. Crion fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:23
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Plus, that power explicitly decreases the target's defense and health. Considering the average person's defense value is 2, that means the Beast has a free power that can do 2 damage, remove all defense, and do an incredible debuff as a reflexive action. If Satiety is like the other Integrity stats, it's out of ten, which means you could easily roll ten dice against maybe five to activate the power. The target better have taken Athletics! Of course, it's possible that the defense debuff is only supposed to happen on an exceptional success, even though it's listed under the derived properties in the normal success section, but with an average ten dice you can throw out, exceptional success are fairly accessible.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:26
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Here's what makes the least sense about the Beast Seeming writeup:quote:A Beast can, of her own free will, enter into a Contract or Pledge or other more intimate acts of binding, but it chuffs her more than the average Lost. Shouldn't Beasts dislike bindings? It just doesn't make sense.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:26
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They may have meant "chafed" instead of "chuffed."
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Apr 23, 2015 19:29
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Ferrinus, I'm generally curious. Is there anything you actually like in nWoD?
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Apr 23, 2015 19:30
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Soonmot posted:Ferrinus, I'm generally curious. Is there anything you actually like in nWoD? Please stop trying to bait people into talking about Mage, guy who constantly complains about Mage talk
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Apr 23, 2015 19:31
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Rand Brittain posted:They may have meant "chafed" instead of "chuffed." I'm really chuffed that you didn't get my joke.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:33
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I think the big shake-up with Changeling Beasts is coming from the redefinition of Seemings as an expression of agency. So where before the Beast Seeming was just a collection of animal related kiths with no real overarching theme binding it (even Elementals had detachment and alienation), now they have to give it some sort of unifying idea. Like I said, I think Id/instinct works pretty well for that, but I do feel that the write-up could be smoothed out a bit.Soonmot posted:Ferrinus, I'm generally curious. Is there anything you actually like in nWoD? They have a vague sort of respect for Mage. Luminous Obscurity fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 19:37
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Soonmot posted:Ferrinus, I'm generally curious. Is there anything you actually like in nWoD? I guarantee you that the most vocal critics in this thread are the people who play nWoD the most regularly
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Apr 23, 2015 19:40
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Basically what LO said: your mild-mannered Broadbacked elephant isn't a Beast in 2e, but depending on how he achieved freedom he could be a Wizened or an Elemental.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:41
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paradoxGentleman posted:Basically what LO said: your mild-mannered Broadbacked elephant isn't a Beast in 2e, but depending on how he achieved freedom he could be a Wizened or an Elemental. They're going to have to do some serious work with Kiths to make this non-laughable.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:42
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The overarching theme of Beasts was a particular sort of dehumanization, same with all the other Seemings. The big difference here is that each Seeming is going to be a survival strategy you adopted rather than a scar the Durance inflicted on you. "Humanity has failed her, failed her when she was the most in need, and so she rejected it" is a weird sentence to see in Changeling.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:42
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Ferrinus posted:I'm really chuffed that you didn't get my joke. I could not get too close to your point for fear of chafing.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:42
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Ferrinus posted:"Humanity has failed her, failed her when she was the most in need, and so she rejected it" is a weird sentence to see in Changeling. Yeah, given the way the seeming is presented, I would have gone with "society has failed her" or maybe "civilization".
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Apr 23, 2015 19:49
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Ferrinus posted:The overarching theme of Beasts was a particular sort of dehumanization, same with all the other Seemings. The big difference here is that each Seeming is going to be a survival strategy you adopted rather than a scar the Durance inflicted on you. Its definitely weird, but I think it could potentially work. One of the things mentioned is that they seem to be shifting to survival metaphor rather than solely an abuse metaphor. People generally do pretty shocking (and many times, out of character) things to stay alive. So if your Seeming is treated almost like another scar or piece of your trauma that you have to come to terms with, it could be pretty cool. Like while Ms. Beast Changeling understands and values her humanity now, at her lowest point she felt betrayed/abandoned/whatever and cast it aside and thats like an entire aspect of her durance that she still has to deal with. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but I could see it tying into a PTSD/survival metaphor pretty cleanly.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:51
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Its definitely weird, but I think it could potentially work. One of the things mentioned is that they seem to be shifting to survival metaphor rather than solely an abuse metaphor. People generally do pretty shocking (and many times, out of character) things to stay alive. So like your Seeming is treated almost like another scar or piece of your trauma that you have to come to terms with, it could be pretty cool. Like while Ms. Beast Changeling understands and values her humanity [i]now/[i], at her lowest point she felt betrayed/abandoned/whatever and cast it aside and thats like an entire aspect of her durance that she still has to deal with. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but I could see it tying into a PTSD/survival metaphor pretty cleanly. With it looking like clarity will be fluctuating throughout play instead of just being straight degradation, this makes sense.
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Apr 23, 2015 19:53
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