|
Nintendo Kid posted:Obama isn't the one making Venezuela into a regional pariah, that's Maduro and the Miami crew only care about Cuba. The Venezuelans are up in Westin
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
Ardennes posted:That said, even Colombia has voiced concerns about it. I think it is a stupid move by the US and you don't have to support Maduro to see it. A diplomat saying "The government of the United States and the embassy are working hard to obtain money for the Alliance for Prosperity program (but) the reality is these messages make the work harder." is only a credible threat if the diplomat is literally representing Don Corleone. The article is a bad article and I think it's fair to criticize BJ for posting an article as devoid of actual content as that one. EDIT: In other words, that statement is far more likely to be a true statement of reality that to be some 11th-dimensional chess move to revive economic colonialism in South America. ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:The problem, from Jimmy's perspective, is that the world has moved on from his reflexive anti-Americanism and chosen not to take his views seriously. I'm asking from the perspective of the Latin states.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Kurtofan posted:I'm asking from the perspective of the Latin states. I would be surprised if it wasn't mainly motivated by the rhetoric. That wording calling Venezuela a threat was a pretty boneheaded thing for the U.S. to do, hands down.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:00
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:A diplomat saying "The government of the United States and the embassy are working hard to obtain money for the Alliance for Prosperity program (but) the reality is these messages make the work harder." is only a credible threat if the diplomat is literally representing Don Corleone. I think that is naive, in diplomatic speak he is saying "watch your rear end." It is obviously a bit pressure is being applied, and only leftist governments are unhappy with it either. You could ask him for a better source, but it isn't exactly a non-issue that should be buried. That said, I would like to see a different source either way. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Apr 22, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole wording of Venezuela being a threat just a necessary legal label to take those kinds of unilateral sanctions?
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:I think that is naive, in diplomatic speak he is saying "watch your rear end." It is obviously a bit pressure is being applied, and only leftist governments are unhappy with it either. You could ask him for a better source, but it isn't exactly a non-issue that should be buried. Okay, you're right. In retrospect I was being a bit hyperbolic there. But applying soft economic power by just making that statement is a far cry from issuing an explicit threat. Yet the article is happy to treat it as an explicit threat when it's more of the typical soft power facades and voodoo that make up so much of diplomatic relations. It's not completely non-notable, true, but it's also not some sort of amazing revelatory insight. EDIT: Labradoodle posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole wording of Venezuela being a threat just a necessary legal label to take those kinds of unilateral sanctions? That's what they say, but I don't know the details of the law in question.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:Okay, you're right. In retrospect I was being a bit hyperbolic there. But applying soft economic power by just making that statement is a far cry from issuing an explicit threat. Yet the article is happy to treat it as an explicit threat when it's more of the typical soft power facades and voodoo that make up so much of diplomatic relations. It's not completely non-notable, true, but it's also not some sort of amazing revelatory insight. I don't disagree, I mean there is an obviously slant to the story, and looking at its origin it is fairly predictable. The ultimate origin seems to be from Telesur, which is a big satellite network out of Caracas. Is it as bad as RT? (Honestly, I have never watched it.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole wording of Venezuela being a threat just a necessary legal label to take those kinds of unilateral sanctions? It's a necessary PR label at least. The American government's never been too concerned with the legality of, well, any of its actions ever
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:I don't disagree, I mean there is an obviously slant to the story, and looking at its origin it is fairly predictable. The ultimate origin seems to be from Telesur, which is a big satellite network out of Caracas. Is it as bad as RT? (Honestly, I have never watched it.) Telesur would be the equivalent of RT for Venezuela, as far as I know. Also anything that feeds into these corrupt assholes' rethoric is A Bad Thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 21:39
|
|
|
Azran posted:Telesur would be the equivalent of RT for Venezuela, as far as I know. Telesur and VTV yeah
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 22:42
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:It's a necessary PR label at least. The American government's never been too concerned with the legality of, well, any of its actions ever That's not true at all. Our government is extremely concerned with legality; our concept of legality and yours differ.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:That's not true at all. Our government is extremely concerned with legality;. Most criminals are!
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
Helsing posted:Most criminals are! Exactly, why do you think so many convicted felons become lawyers 
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:03
|
|
|
Helsing posted:Most criminals are! We have a process to determine criminality. If you believe American actions are illegal, you are free to set up a lobbying organization in America and attempt to persuade Congress towards your perspective. Lots of folks do it, for instance, Colombia related to American import tarriffs on Colombian agricultural exports. Colombian lobbying shops argued successfully that certain tarriffs were quite unjust, and Congress removed them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:03
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:That said, even Colombia has voiced concerns about it. I think it is a stupid move by the US and you don't have to support Maduro to see it. I agree that calling Venezuela a threat to US national security was going too far, unless, of course, it was legally necessary for the sanctions. From a practical standpoint, nothing the US really affected more than a handful of Venezuelan government officials. The primarily reason we're hearing so much about it is because the Venezuelan government is trying to craft a narrative to distract from internal problems. This is largely meaningless as well, since the internal problems are far too big to distract from.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:10
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:I agree that calling Venezuela a threat to US national security was going too far, unless, of course, it was legally necessary for the sanctions. In that sense, the PSUV is doomed but the future of Venezuela itself is rather cloudy, especially if there isn't a real political consensus. One thing for the US here is that a carrot is better than a stick, and if they want to be successful here, it may be necessary to keep the carrot out there. I think burying the hatchet with Cuba was a good thing for everyone but Venezuela is probably going to take even more care. It would be very easy for Venezuela to get caught into a cycle of revolution and counter-revolution you see so much elsewhere around the world, and that is going to take a lot of compromise to stop.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:17
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:In that sense, the PSUV is doomed but the future of Venezuela itself is rather cloudy, especially if there isn't a real political consensus. One thing for the US here is that a carrot is better than a stick, and if they want to be successful here, it may be necessary to keep the carrot out there. I think burying the hatchet with Cuba was a good thing for everyone but Venezuela is probably going to take even more care. It would be very easy for Venezuela to get caught into a cycle of revolution and counter-revolution you see so much elsewhere around the world, and that is going to take a lot of compromise to stop. The problem is that I don't know if the US can bury the hatchet or meaningfully affect the process at all at this point, short of going back to the US of the 60s, which I hope we've left behind completely. The media has become too closed and the US too convenient a boogeyman for things to change while the PSUV is in control. If the US can make a meaningful difference, it'll be after the PSUV falls. Hopefully there'll be economic aid and political support, but society might remain too polarized to do much more than that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:22
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:We have a process to determine criminality. If you believe American actions are illegal, you are free to set up a lobbying organization in America and attempt to persuade Congress towards your perspective. Lots of folks do it, for instance, Colombia related to American import tarriffs on Colombian agricultural exports. Colombian lobbying shops argued successfully that certain tarriffs were quite unjust, and Congress removed them. You're describing a Pirate Kingdom, not a lawful state. Believe me I think it's great that I can take some of my plunder and offer it up to Obama the Pirate King and receive approval for my next raiding mission in the Greater Antilles, but that's not what I was talking about. You see by your own constitution the treaties you sign and regularly break are the supreme law of your land. So when you sign on to an organization whose opening principles declare "Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state" then you're kinda setting yourself up for perpetual criminality.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2015 23:33
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:That said, even Colombia has voiced concerns about it. Don't take our statements seriously.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 00:23
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Ideology is a blood sport I guess. It's amazing the amount of bile being spewed over me pointing out that United States influence in Latin America has been uniformly negative http://www.soaw.org/
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 00:40
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:It's amazing the amount of bile being spewed over me pointing out that United States influence in Latin America has been uniformly negative
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:It's amazing the amount of bile being spewed over me pointing out that United States influence in Latin America has been uniformly negative http://www.soaw.org/ Well, I guess it's nice to know you've studied all 200+ years of US/South American relations in great detail and have determined them all to be negative, isn't it? (or you haven't, and you're relying on someone else who's making the same ludicrous claim because you aren't capable of formulating your own opinions independently of the magical leftist collective)
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 01:21
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:It's amazing the amount of bile being spewed over me pointing out that United States influence in Latin America has been uniformly negative http://www.soaw.org/ "An amazing amount of bile" is a fairly optimistic assessment of the response to your increasingly flaccid trolling attempts, given this is D&D and there are posters here that will argue with you over such controversial propositions as "Man-on-turtle sex should probably not be legal or taught in schools." That being said, you've got to fake it till you make it I guess.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 02:22
|
|
|
Congrats guys, we managed all of zero posts before flipping back to An American Said.Chuck Boone posted:Wow! Two years! How did the vote go? Could they do/have they done this enough to change the calculus for the elections?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2015 12:40
|
|
|
Peel posted:How did the vote go? Could they do/have they done this enough to change the calculus for the elections? The PSUV-controlled National Assembly voted yesterday in favour of approving the CNE projections and going ahead with the redistricting As far as I can tell, the redistricting will result in, at most, 2-3 extra seats for the PSUV. I read an opinion piece in Caracas Chronicles last week, and the author argued that the fact that the government is making such a blatant move to rig the election so late in the game could mean that they're expecting a clear defeat in the polls, and so they're desperate to grab seats any way they can. EDIT: Also, Maduro went on a rant last night on T.V. and blamed FEDECAMARAS (the country's largest organization of chambers of commerce) of being 100% responsible for the "economic war" and the scarcity, so he said that the government would not be giving dollars to any business associated with them in the future. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Apr 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 00:12
|
|
|
Borneo Jimmy posted:It's amazing the amount of bile being spewed over me pointing out that United States influence in Latin America has been uniformly negative http://www.soaw.org/ Unlike the influence that Bolivarians and Communists have had on Latin America? They've been oh so positive and increased the quality of living!
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
PerpetualSelf posted:Unlike the influence that Bolivarians and Communists have had on Latin America? They've been oh so positive and increased the quality of living! How dare you. Where it not for the FARC alone, Columbia would be missing hundreds of jobs guarding the jungle hostage rape camps.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 03:33
|
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:EDIT: Also, Maduro went on a rant last night on T.V. and blamed FEDECAMARAS (the country's largest organization of chambers of commerce) of being 100% responsible for the "economic war" and the scarcity, so he said that the government would not be giving dollars to any business associated with them in the future. Is Maduro responsible for anything in Venezuela?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Is Maduro responsible for anything in Venezuela? Trimming his mustache?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 03:43
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Is Maduro responsible for anything in Venezuela? A couple months ago a member of the Policia Nacional Bolivariana murdered a 14 year old boy in broad daylight in the middle of the street during a protest and Maduro still blamed it on the opposition.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 03:51
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Trimming his mustache?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 03:53
|
|
|
PerpetualSelf posted:Unlike the influence that Bolivarians and Communists have had on Latin America? They've been oh so positive and increased the quality of living! Funny because Venezuela has been praised for helping Colombian refugees fleeing right wing violence and displacement. http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=358739&CategoryId=10717
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 04:14
|
|
|
Peel posted:Congrats guys, we managed all of zero posts before flipping back to An American Said. Chuck Boone posted:The PSUV-controlled National Assembly voted yesterday in favour of approving the CNE projections and going ahead with the redistricting On this topic, every single poll is giving the opposition an advantage in the 10-20% range over the PSUV, which is unprecedented in chavismo's history (far too big for these changes to meaningfully influece). In an earlier post I mentioned how there seems to be a consensus in the MUD that the electronic voting system is legit, but even if the government isn't capable of large scale fraud, it's obvious they're capable of padding their numbers at the last second as past elections have shown us, but they still need the ball to be somewhere in the scoring area before moving the goalposts so to speak. Given the fact that they're unable/unwilling to tackle the most important issues at this time scarcity/inflation/violence (and even if they were willing, there's not much that could be achieved in the short term even simply on scarcity because they'd have to swiftly dismantle the giant bureucratic machine they've built around imports to their public detriment) their own numbers aren't likely to increase, so their only option aside from suspending elections (which would be a tarnish on their last remaining shreds of democratic credibility) is discouraging opposition voters from going to the ballot at all and they're going all out to achieve this. Incarcerating outspoken opposition leaders, redistricting, censoring the media, publicizing the fact that the electoral council isn't impartial (for godsakes, they CERTIFIED the imaginary 13 million signatures against Obama in a day, that's more voters than Chavez ever got at his prime), etc. And as always, please continue to ignore Borneo Jimmy. Resist your impulses to hit the reply button, we're on a nice streak of non shitposts again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 04:20
|
|
|
Yes lets just ignore the fact that these jailed opposition leaders have been involved in multiple violent attempts to overthrow the government.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 04:30
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:On this topic, every single poll is giving the opposition an advantage in the 10-20% range over the PSUV, which is unprecedented in chavismo's history (far too big for these changes to meaningfully influece). In an earlier post I mentioned how there seems to be a consensus in the MUD that the electronic voting system is legit, but even if the government isn't capable of large scale fraud, it's obvious they're capable of padding their numbers at the last second as past elections have shown us, but they still need the ball to be somewhere in the scoring area before moving the goalposts so to speak.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 04:45
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Will the PSUV actually hand over power if they lose a close election? Well, hopefully they would.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 04:53
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Will the PSUV actually hand over power if they lose a close election? What would be the consequences if they didn't?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 05:01
|
|
|
Adventure Pigeon posted:What would be the consequences if they didn't? They must secure the revolution from the dirty capitalists that rigged the election. Maduro doesn't really have the charisma or else I'd say this is a situation straight from Tropico 
computer parts fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 05:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:55 |
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Will the PSUV actually hand over power if they lose a close election? I don't know, we're entering uncharted territory here but I assume their reaction would depend on the scale of the loss. If discontent keeps growing and the gap widening, their best bet would be to postpone elections indefinitely by claiming we're in the midst of an emergency due to the "economic war" or whatever. Maduro already was granted another Habilitante to legislate freely (only on topics that pertain to national security, but that's never stopped unrelated legislation from being pushed neither during his mandate or Chavez's) so they maybe could just downplay the role of an opposition-led Assembly. If the margin is very close, they could always prosecute some of the members for some fictional charge and bribe their replacements (they've bribed replacements before and turned some opposition members, which has pissed a lot of MUD supporters and could impact turnout) in order to at least prevent the opposition from achieving an overwhelming majority and keep things gridlocked. The problem for the PSUV is that it has to be extremely heavy-handed to demoralize the opposition base and prevent them from voting, because their very own gerrymandering has made it so that a small advantage at the ballot translates into a disproportional assignation of seats at the Assembly (can't get too excited here, they'd still control the rest of the Venezuelan political entities). Theoretically if these numbers hold and the opposition leaders do their job to get voters excited, they'd absolutely crush chavismo. If they hand over the National Assembly they'd be foregoing the possibility of further Enabling laws for Maduro and its members could potentially call for a Constitutional referendum and directly threaten every other institution. Either way the gamble is too great for the PSUV and I can't see them taking such a gigantic risk. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Apr 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2015 05:03
|
|