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How long did it take for those first TF2 checks to go out?
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Apr 24, 2015 06:58
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New Concept Hole posted:Considering the payouts are supposed to take several months after they get over the $400 minimum, no one's going to be paid in a month except Valve and Bethesda. If nobody has even qualified for a check in a month, I mean. ANIME IS BLOOD posted:Exactly this This is a really bad argument. I suppose other hobbies where you can charge for your work are impure, and game modding is somehow above all that. The modding community has been a cesspool of drama and goofy entitledness for a long time.
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Apr 24, 2015 06:59
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ANIME IS BLOOD posted:Nothing was stopping you from donating before. Still nothing. They just can't link donation urls in their mod descriptions, which makes sense because why would Valve advertise a mod that solicits money from you that they don't get a part of?
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Apr 24, 2015 07:03
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El Generico posted:This is a really bad argument. I suppose other hobbies where you can charge for your work are impure, and game modding is somehow above all that. The modding community has been a cesspool of drama and goofy entitledness for a long time. The issue stems from when modders get too caught up in the idea of making tiny amounts of money and you get things like modders starting legal drama over modpacks because those modpacks don't go through their adfly or whatever.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:03
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So what's preventing someone from uploading SKSE and saying it's theirs? Easy money. And the original creators have no legal right to that money since it was free, unlicensed software.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:05
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YellerBill posted:The issue stems from when modders get too caught up in the idea of making tiny amounts of money and you get things like modders starting legal drama over modpacks because those modpacks don't go through their adfly or whatever. Was the Forestry guy even using ad.fly when he went bonkers? Serious question, I don't remember.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:06
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Nasgate posted:So what's preventing someone from uploading SKSE and saying it's theirs? Easy money. And the original creators have no legal right to that money since it was free, unlicensed software. SKSE is under the MIT license. There is a bit of trembling right now because the SKSE devs say they are preparing a Workshop version and no one is quite sure what that means. Also if they change the license (which they can do at any moment) it will instantly make nearly every mod on the Workshop illegal.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:08
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Nasgate posted:So what's preventing someone from uploading SKSE and saying it's theirs? Easy money. And the original creators have no legal right to that money since it was free, unlicensed software. I think you're reaching a bit, as SKSE isn't some backwoods mod nobody has heard of. Valve and Bethesda may be trying to monetize community efforts here, but they're not that stupid. ANIME IS BLOOD posted:Valve seems to think DMCAs and the free market will smooth everything over, no chance that people will use DMCAs to false flag work that isn't their own just to gently caress with someone, right?  You do realize companies don't just immediately take poo poo down when Random Internet rear end in a top hat makes an unfounded claim, right?
Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 07:09
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Nasgate posted:So what's preventing someone from uploading SKSE and saying it's theirs? Easy money. And the original creators have no legal right to that money since it was free, unlicensed software. Valve seems to think DMCAs and the free market will smooth everything over, no chance that people will use DMCAs to false flag work that isn't their own just to gently caress with someone, right?
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Apr 24, 2015 07:09
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Something else to consider is that this will most likely do away with larger collaborative mods either due to disputes over the distribution of the profits and/or due to having to charge too much for the mod to get things going.El Generico posted:This is a really bad argument. I suppose other hobbies where you can charge for your work are impure, and game modding is somehow above all that. The modding community has been a cesspool of drama and goofy entitledness for a long time. The problem isn't that anybody is charging for their work, it's that Valve basically told them, "Hey, we want you to make a mod for us that's exclusive to Workshop so we can charge them for it, and we'll give you 25% of whatever we get. We don't care if you steal anyone's work to do it, either, just as long as money doesn't exchange hands." If this was going on in any of my hobbies I'd probably be pretty pissed.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:10
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Everyone who thinks this is about not wanting to pay for mods is so hilariously on the wrong side of everything.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:10
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i didn't remember any legal poo poo when i downloaded SKSE so i was curious. The point still stands though, if a mod doesn't have a legal binding document(which it can't, since the mod owner does not own the mod, Bethesda does), then anyone can upload something someone else made and legally make money. Free Market 
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Apr 24, 2015 07:11
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El Generico posted:Was the Forestry guy even using ad.fly when he went bonkers? I was referring to... I think it was Railcraft? Whoever managed to get  to happen.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:13
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New Concept Hole posted:The problem isn't that anybody is charging for their work, it's that Valve basically told them, "Hey, we want you to make a mod for us that's exclusive to Workshop so we can charge them for it, and we'll give you 25% of whatever we get. We don't care if you steal anyone's work to do it, either, just as long as money doesn't exchange hands." If this was going on in any of my hobbies I'd probably be pretty pissed. Yeah, this whole issue sucks. I hope mod authors have some kind of legal recourse after all, and that Valve starts doing a better job of moderating this thing. YellerBill posted:I was referring to... I think it was Railcraft? Whoever managed to get Wow, never seen this. I heard Railcraft guy had kicked up a fuss at some point though. I know when ATLauncher has a pack with Railcraft in it, it makes you go to his ad.fly link and download it manually and then put it in a specific folder for the launcher to handle. El Generico fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 07:13
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El Generico posted:Yeah, this whole issue sucks. I hope mod authors have some kind of legal recourse after all, and that Valve starts doing a better job of moderating this thing. There is no legal recourse because it's a mod. And Valve is the one that's a-okay with using someone else's work so why would they moderate it?
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Apr 24, 2015 07:14
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New Concept Hole posted:There is no legal recourse because it's a mod. Then why would anyone be able to DMCA anything? Legitimate or otherwise, if there's no legal threat, wouldn't they just ignore it? I don't know, when Minecraft modding got into it, it seemed like licences and copyrights could have some legal weight for mod authors. Orv posted:Everyone who thinks this is about not wanting to pay for mods is so hilariously on the wrong side of everything. There are tons of people for whom that is all that this is about.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:17
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El Generico posted:Then why would anyone be able to DMCA anything? Legitimate or otherwise, if there's no legal threat, wouldn't they just ignore it? When you get DMCA'd you have to counter-claim back that the DMCA is not valid in a specifically worded legalese way, you can't just ignore it. Valve will forward any DMCA it gets to whoever it is for, if there is no counter-claim from the person being DMCA'd Valve has to comply and remove that content. Sometimes companies (ones you aren't paying to host things) will just straight-up delete content, paid hosting usually gets around 3 days or so. I don't know where Valve would fall into this. El Generico posted:There are tons of people for whom that is all that this is about. Because you say so doesn't make it true, and even if it IS true it doesn't make the other issues any less important.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:25
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KakerMix posted:When you get DMCA'd you have to counter-claim back that the DMCA is not valid in a specifically worded legalese way, you can't just ignore it. Valve will forward any DMCA it gets to whoever it is for, if there is no counter-claim from the person being DMCA'd Valve has to comply and remove that content. Sometimes companies (ones you aren't paying to host things) will just straight-up delete content, paid hosting usually gets around 3 days or so. I don't know where Valve would fall into this. So the real problem here isn't mod authors not being able to protect their work, they can try to do that if they want to bother to. It's how just anyone can do a DMCA and gently caress with even legit mod authors because they're mad they can't get free poo poo, and the onus is entirely on the person receiving the DMCA to counter-claim, which sounds difficult. Man, copyright law is some poo poo. KakerMix posted:Because you say so doesn't make it true, and even if it IS true it doesn't make the other issues any less important. Look anywhere other than here where people are discussing this. You could not possibly miss this sentiment. It is the most commonly expressed reaction to this story.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:43
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Wee Tinkle Wand posted:SKSE is under the MIT license. There is a bit of trembling right now because the SKSE devs say they are preparing a Workshop version and no one is quite sure what that means. Also if they change the license (which they can do at any moment) it will instantly make nearly every mod on the Workshop illegal. Good.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:44
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Cat Army 
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El Generico posted:So the real problem here isn't mod authors not being able to protect their work, they can try to do that if they want to bother to. It's how just anyone can do a DMCA and gently caress with even legit mod authors because they're mad they can't get free poo poo, and the onus is entirely on the person receiving the DMCA to counter-claim, which sounds difficult. why it's almost as if adding money into the mix is going to poison things because with it comes all the legal baggage of consumer and creator rights which nobody is really ready or able to deal with, imagine that
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Apr 24, 2015 07:48
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ANIME IS BLOOD posted:why it's almost as if adding money into the mix is going to poison things because with it comes all the legal baggage of consumer and creator rights which nobody is really ready or able to deal with, imagine that The Minecraft modding community sorted itself out. Modpack permissions mostly loosened up again, things that sidestep the issues like ATLauncher popped up, and there are now more modpacks, more mods, and more people playing them than ever before. Mod authors now make licensing and permissions clear, which they probably should've already had always done. Of course, that's not a direct comparison. Nothing quite like this has ever existed before. I just don't see that the results have to be quite so grim. Hopefully the system improves, or something comes around that also gets Bethesda's approval that's much better.
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Apr 24, 2015 07:55
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ANIME IS BLOOD posted:why it's almost as if adding money into the mix is going to poison things because with it comes all the legal baggage of consumer and creator rights which nobody is really ready or able to deal with, imagine that Downloading a poo poo ton of Skyrim mods now, there are a lot of mods that need compatibility patches to work with other mods. There will be hamstringing of popular mods and fights over who gets a cut of what. Probably DMCA claims and counter claims. You're going to end up with a whole bunch of poo poo that probably won't work together or it takes you more time and effort than its worth to figure out. There are also translations of mods too. Who pays them? Between Valve/Bethesda taking a whopping 75%, you're going to have to spread that 25% very thin. Also, you have to do a lot of work yourself to get mods working correctly. It takes time to make a mod, but it also takes time to mod a game. People are not going to want to figure out load orders and dependencies and uninstalling and re-installing constantly now that they are paying for things. And the Steam Workshop is notoriously awful for anything but light modding. Valve is basically dumping customer service onto modders. Notice how it doesn't do this in its own curated stores, even if its customer service is awful. You don't even have lovely customer service now, you're dealing with a modder. Who can basically say, "Sorry, you're on your own." Or nothing at all. Or who has abandoned the mod you liked and a game patch breaks it. Before, if a game mod broke your game, you just uninstalled it. Now you have the pleasure of uninstalling it and being out real money. Not to mention many mods that break saves. Maybe you buy and install a mod that doesn't break saves until a few hours of playtime, which could be across a couple of days. Now you are out of your money and the hours you put into the game. If they had a donation system with a huge "Donate to this Creator" or provide incentives for donating. Like steam icons and mod trading cards and wallpapers of your modded character that the community could see, with different reward levels and poo poo, I could see that going over much easier. Even if Valve is still basically robbing you blind. Now, it is pretty consumer unfriendly and gouging creators who might be distracted by the fact that they might be able to earn pocket change if they throw their mods up there when any real money is going to Valve or Bethesda. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 08:16
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So have free modding died while I was gone? Did the great mod migration of 2015 happen and Nexus closed its doors forever and now you'll have to pay 20$ for bugfixes? Bholder fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 08:42
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Basically, I don't think anybody is against the idea of modders being able to receive some kind off benefit of being a modder. You're kidding yourself though if you think this new system Valve is pushing is good for gaming. Half the poo poo that came out of the heavily modded games (Quake 2, Quake 3, Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout, etc) would never thrive in this environment. Modding is a hotbed for testing lovely ideas, for trying out coding for the first time, and most of the time failing. The community bears those failures with a nod and a grin because they don't pay for them. Half of the mods are dependent on the other mods, there's no oversight for any of this poo poo and the net result is that fewer mods will be downloaded and consumed. I hope that we see fewer lizard dicks as a result of this shift at least because every cloud has to have a lizard dick lining but that's about the best I can say about it. This isn't about having my free mods taken away - I'm all for the best mods being compiled into inexpensive modpacks and then sold as content with a cut given to the modders. The fact that every idiot with enough ambition can just ask fifty cents for a couple of new spells and a new butt texture that makes your saves stop working is a bit much to swallow.
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Apr 24, 2015 08:43
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gently caress, I just ordered a new pc mainly to play highly modded skyrim on. I don't mind spending money on games, but skyrim mods are way too variable quality for me to want to deal with this.
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Apr 24, 2015 09:10
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Bholder posted:So have free modding died while I was gone? no, but it's in progress - a few major mods have already been pulled from the Nexus and made workshop exclusives
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Apr 24, 2015 09:16
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Wee Tinkle Wand posted:SKSE is under the MIT license. There is a bit of trembling right now because the SKSE devs say they are preparing a Workshop version and no one is quite sure what that means. Also if they change the license (which they can do at any moment) it will instantly make nearly every mod on the Workshop illegal. SKSE is NOT under the MIT license. Parts of it are (those in the src/common folder) but the core of it is not released under any license. You are explicitly not allowed to redistribute it either as is or a modified version. They in fact had versions that were built with the memory fix taken down from the nexus and other sites because they don't want competing forks that will confuse people. And mods that use SKSE don't actually include any of SKSE in them so even if they changed SKSE to a more draconian license (whatever that could be since you get nothing now) it wouldn't bar people from distributing mods that use it. And Bethesda doesn't 'own' mods. The EULA for the CK grants them the right to make use of them as they see fit and bars you from commercial distribution outside the steam workshop. Anything new a modder makes is their intellectual property, although most will also contain parts of Bethesda's. New art or scripts could have no derivative parts though. If someone uploaded a mod with new assets to the workshop and the original author wanted it taken down (and could reasonably show ownership) Valve would have to take it down or face the absurd penalties for copywrite violation. If Valve is making money off a work they know is infringing then the author could sue their pants off for fat stacks of cash money. In fact it has happened a few times that a mod was uploaded without permission and Valve and Bethesda were prompt in taking them down.
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Apr 24, 2015 09:26
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I really hope that dota 2 fun maps, if they ever get released, will cost something  (who am i kidding its probably 2-4$ for pudge wars etc.)
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Apr 24, 2015 09:49
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Scyantific posted:Yeah, if you've got mods you absolutely want to keep, make sure you download them right now or have backup copies of them and put them in a safe spot. I wonder how surprised I'd be if Bethesda releases a new Skyrim patch that just happens to contain code that messes up 90% of mod compatibility, but is easily fixable by mod creators... Edit: Also, all future Bethesda games will have DRM in mods made with their mod tools and will only be uploadable/installable/sharable through Steam. Calling it now. Mr Scumbag fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 10:17
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I don't think we'd have anything like the current modding community for Skyrim if this system had been in place from the beginning. So many mods have multiple dependencies and rely on the resources of others, so many have incompatibilites that have to be patched by one of the authors. And people will often have dozens and dozens of mods in a single load order. Putting up a paywall for mods would hamstring all of this. If this system stays in place- which I very much hope it does not- then the modding scene in future Bethesda games will be a very different beast. Also the 24-hour refund policy is comically out of touch with how modding these games works. It is not uncommon at all to spend several days testing your load order, then a month down the road find out that one of your mods hosed up your save irreparably. In the past modders used the excuse of "it's free, not my fault if things go pear-shaped", but now? Valve states that if you pay for a mod and it doesn't work your recourse is to politely ask the author to fix it. Same lack of QA, only this time you actually are out money.
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Apr 24, 2015 10:26
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graynull posted:"Modders will fix it" won't be an excuse Hahahaha. But it literally is now, and not only will modders fix it, BETHESDA will get paid for it. This has created an environment where developers can profit off not patching/fixing their game.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:03
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I'm just really glad Bethesda can finally get some money for all the great, active work they've been doing with the Skyrim modding community. Such as that one dev who answers serious papyrus questions on the forums once every couple months. And the exquisite, wonderful, up-to-date documentation and learning tools they provide for us on the CK and Papyrus. Thank you Bethesda, and God Bless.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:04
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I wonder if this means the lip sync bug will get fi--bwahahahahahahaha! Seriously, I had my fun with skyrim mods, now I get to have fun watching the modding community go into a full meltdown.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:10
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Yes, modding is over, oh woe us. If not Skyrim, it will be the next game because you can DRM mods somehow.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:39
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Here's my answer to the whole situation: Give Me Money For No Reason! I added a beggar named Beth who dresses like a Jarl but still accepts your coins. If you look closely, you will notice she sits on a valve with a little puff of steam coming out of it. Click on the "perms" button on the mod page for a little easter egg. Please feel free to goon-rush this poo poo.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:42
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Skyrim is a lovely and twodimensional game and no amount of modding is fixing it anyways. That being said, I am sure this will take off, as gamers have proven to companies in the past again and again that they are impulsive customers with too much money and very poor self control that'll pay gladly for unfinished tech demos, so this is the logical next step. I am also sure it will every bit as retarded as it looks like. I can only hope for software developers (you know, the people that actually make the games, remember them?) that they realize that mods are in some cases one of the reasons people buy the game because they know it'll be expanded and provide replay value through modding for free and when people see workshops full of price tags they might not bother with the game to begin with.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:42
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Seeing so many free market libertarian types defend this, some of which are seemingly my own friends is depressing as hell.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:53
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This would make something like Morrowind Overhaul pretty much impossible for future games, right? How many dozens of mods did that include? If any significant proportion of them were charged for, then a pack like that (or any kind of modpack at all) simply couldn't exist
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Apr 24, 2015 12:07
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Big compilation mods are already impossible thanks to modders acting like jealous children
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Apr 24, 2015 12:13
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No, they're not. Yeah, there are plenty of self-entitled modders, but you can still find a bunch of great compilations on Nexus.
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Apr 24, 2015 12:19
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