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wateroverfire posted:If I could pay a man less because he might theoretically decide to gender switch and roleplay pregnancy I would do that in the name of equality. I think you'd have to pay most men extra if you want them to roleplay this fetish
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Apr 24, 2015 15:07
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VitalSigns posted:I think you'd have to pay most men extra if you want them to roleplay this fetish What if the RP were required and I paid less to those who opted out? And also paid participants less because pregnancy? Gender pay gap solved.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:10
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Since you're not requiring women to roleplay, can women get a raise if they have a hysterectomy or show proof of menopause?
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Apr 24, 2015 15:22
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VitalSigns posted:Since you're not requiring women to roleplay, can women get a raise if they have a hysterectomy or show proof of menopause? If they display their bronzed uteri as desk ornaments I will consider it. Then pay them less because not as assertive in pay negotiations.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:25
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There was a thing on NPR yesterday about companies getting rid of salary negotiation to encourage equal pay for women.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:28
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Miltank posted:There was a thing on NPR yesterday about companies getting rid of salary negotiation to encourage equal pay for women. Seriously? No bargaining power for any employee? The dream is alive. 
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Apr 24, 2015 15:31
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We must protect the relative equality of our upper class white women.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:57
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I'm really glad D&D has managed to produce 60 pages of cogent discussion of this totally real and not made up* phenomenon. Can anyone summarize for me what we've accomplished in this thread w/r/t clarifying the D&D mass line? *not even a little bit
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Apr 24, 2015 16:00
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm really glad D&D has managed to produce 60 pages of cogent discussion of this totally real and not made up* phenomenon. Can anyone summarize for me what we've accomplished in this thread w/r/t clarifying the D&D mass line? Cultural Appropriation is a thing and we should consider it when someone is offended by it. Unless their reaction seems unreasonable or silly and then we shouldn't. No that is not begging the question at all. /close thread.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:16
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wateroverfire posted:... This is a good point, thank you for making it. Once everything is an outrage, nothing is an outrage.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:35
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm really glad D&D has managed to produce 60 pages of cogent discussion of this totally real and not made up* phenomenon. Can anyone summarize for me what we've accomplished in this thread w/r/t clarifying the D&D mass line? Namely that whitey bad and anything that a white american uses that may have originated in another culture is CA and also  Thankfully we have Effectronica and VitalSigns to tell us what horrible people we are and to white knight that poor woman from that country in Africa edit: just like to add, not sure this is a completely tumblerina-only phenomena. My 15 year old came home this week telling me that they discussed CA in 10th grade Social Studies class, in a very blue collar school. I told her she's no longer allowed to braid her hair or eat shrimp lo mein Pauline Kael fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 16:39
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quote:Namely that whitey bad and anything that a white american uses that may have originated in another culture is CA and also It's kind of like people watching Rambo II and thinking that's a fair representation of what war looks like.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:28
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Pauline Kael posted:Namely that whitey bad and anything that a white american uses that may have originated in another culture is CA and also Thats clearly a fakepost, and  in general at what amounts to WND levels of entertainment.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:35
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Pauline Kael posted:edit: just like to add, not sure this is a completely tumblerina-only phenomena. My 15 year old came home this week telling me that they discussed CA in 10th grade Social Studies class, in a very blue collar school. I told her she's no longer allowed to braid her hair or eat shrimp lo mein Given enough retards, their bullshit spills over into mainstream society.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:35
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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VitalSigns posted:Right you can't just lump everything together on superficial similarities, you look at the intentions and effects. There's no ill intent, there are no bad effects so it's fine. This is the standard we apply to lots of things, and it's the one that I am applying here. I don't think your gotcha works. I can agree with wateroverfire about CA and disagree on other things. My arguments about CA cannot be taken verbatim to justify paying women less. As for "intentions and effects" part, you are now moving your goalposts. It was only about effects before. Yeah, the intent means a huge lot for definitions such as sexism, which tend to assume some specific mindset of the perpetrator.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:00
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Hmm, Gantolandon I suppose now I get to tell you that you can't just disclaim wateroverfire and No True Scotsman him because hmmm hmmm you can't deny that he's on your side about CA and is saying some crazy poo poo that discredits your position 
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Nonsense posted:Thats clearly a fakepost, and
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Apr 24, 2015 19:51
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Pauline Kael posted:How do you know fakepost from realpost? Are fakeposts anything that make your pet cause look stupid? Yes.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:08
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Pauline Kael posted:How do you know fakepost from realpost? Are fakeposts anything that make your pet cause look stupid? Maybe just stop and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt instead of sticking them with the stupidest thing you can find from a completely anonymous source. It's already intellectually dishonest, but there's a documented history of people making fake tumblr and Twitter accounts to post things just like that and manufacture outrage. That account in particular was one of them IIRC, that's why it was censored in the screencap when redistributed.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:22
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Ormi posted:Maybe just stop and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt instead of sticking them with the stupidest thing you can find from a completely anonymous source. It's already intellectually dishonest, but there's a documented history of people making fake tumblr and Twitter accounts to post things just like that and manufacture outrage. That account in particular was one of them IIRC, that's why it was censored in the screencap when redistributed. You're right, I should respect the leading voices raising awareness about Cultural Appropriation and never associate them with the teeming hordes of tumblerinas and Professional Outrageists complaining about Gwen Stefani and the take out Chinese place
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Apr 24, 2015 20:36
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Pauline Kael posted:Namely that whitey bad and anything that a white american uses that may have originated in another culture is CA and also Reminds me of the USAnian* actress who expressed surprise at how many 'African-Americans' she saw on her first visit to Paris. *I require acknowledgement for this display of sensitivity toward Mexicans and Canadians. Oh, how I love this thread. It's the best of D&D.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:07
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Ormi posted:Maybe just stop and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt instead of sticking them with the stupidest thing you can find from a completely anonymous source. It's already intellectually dishonest, but there's a documented history of people making fake tumblr and Twitter accounts to post things just like that and manufacture outrage. That account in particular was one of them IIRC, that's why it was censored in the screencap when redistributed. Perhaps the fetishists could give CA skeptics the benefit of the doubt, and stop shrieking racism when teased about their pet theory. What a thin-skinned bunch you are.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:09
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Ormi posted:Maybe just stop and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt instead of sticking them with the stupidest thing you can find from a completely anonymous source. It's already intellectually dishonest, but there's a documented history of people making fake tumblr and Twitter accounts to post things just like that and manufacture outrage. That account in particular was one of them IIRC, that's why it was censored in the screencap when redistributed.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:17
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quote:If this is what's happening, it seems pretty straightforward to say "Oh yeah, those guys are idiots, here's how to distinguish us from them." Is there anything besides a smell test to tell the silly CA from the non-silly apart? quote:You're right, I should respect the leading voices raising awareness about Cultural Appropriation and never associate them with the teeming hordes of tumblerinas and Professional Outrageists complaining about Gwen Stefani and the take out Chinese place
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Apr 24, 2015 21:24
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Ormi posted:Maybe just stop and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt instead of sticking them with the stupidest thing you can find from a completely anonymous source. It's already intellectually dishonest, but there's a documented history of people making fake tumblr and Twitter accounts to post things just like that and manufacture outrage. That account in particular was one of them IIRC, that's why it was censored in the screencap when redistributed. I feel less inclined to give anyone a benefit of doubt if I'm treated as an another incarnation of Hitler whenever I refuse to speak proper lingo. twodot posted:If this is what's happening, it seems pretty straightforward to say "Oh yeah, those guys are idiots, here's how to distinguish us from them." The problem is the natural understanding of cultural appropriations is that it would include things like eating sushi, and it seems like a typical response is "No one actually cares about that." It seems reasonable to only talk about things that people care about, but it's also basically a request to go on an idiot hunt, and if all you have to do is locate an idiot to make your point, that's a pretty low bar. If we're going to talk about things that not-idiots care about we need a mechanism to distinguish them. From what I saw in this thread, reasonable people with important issues are actually happy to argue alongside idiots and never correcting them through the entire thread.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:39
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You need to ask before you borrow something that doesn't belong to you, right? So why not just ask before you borrow a culture? I think I've solved this problem, everyone can go home.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:01
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Shayu posted:You need to ask before you borrow something that doesn't belong to you, right? So why not just ask before you borrow a culture? I think I've solved this problem, everyone can go home. Good point. My German family awaits your permission slip for use of a car.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:40
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It's so great that we've had all this discussion of this real and important issue on the Earth. Can anyone summarize what the thread has decided on the subject of cultural appropriation so I can use it going forward in my life to improve my moral uprightness?
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Apr 25, 2015 05:23
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Arglebargle III posted:It's so great that we've had all this discussion of this real and important issue on the Earth. Can anyone summarize what the thread has decided on the subject of cultural appropriation so I can use it going forward in my life to improve my moral uprightness? Don't be an rear end in a top hat, have respect for stuff that's important to other people.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:49
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So basically CA adds nothing of value in any meaningful way to any discussion about anything.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:11
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CarrKnight posted:So basically CA adds nothing of value in any meaningful way to any discussion about anything. I find it useful for talking about cultural appropriation, but if you don't want to talk about cultural appropriation it's probably not that useful.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:17
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Obdicut posted:I find it useful for talking about cultural appropriation, but if you don't want to talk about cultural appropriation it's probably not that useful. No. Every example about CA brought forward turned out to be about something else. CA is terrible precisely because it is deployed so poorly.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:09
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CarrKnight posted:No. Every example about CA brought forward turned out to be about something else. CA is terrible precisely because it is deployed so poorly. CA, within the context discussed in this thread, and the times I've encountered it in the wild, is nothing more than a bludgeon for intemperate Tumblerinas to yell at their dads and other assorted miscreants to try to force their half baked ideas on others. The supposed victims of CA, like the previously mentioned take out Chinese restaurant owner, want nothing to do with the driving philosophy of so many overweight white teenage other kin
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Apr 25, 2015 20:25
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Obdicut posted:Don't be an rear end in a top hat, have respect for stuff that's important to other people. this is my water fountain, not your water fountain
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Apr 25, 2015 20:32
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Pauline Kael posted:CA, within the context discussed in this thread, and the times I've encountered it in the wild, is nothing more than a bludgeon for intemperate Tumblerinas to yell at their dads and other assorted miscreants to try to force their half baked ideas on others. The supposed victims of CA, like the previously mentioned take out Chinese restaurant owner, want nothing to do with the driving philosophy of so many overweight white teenage other kin Not everybody who disagrees with you (and me) has dyed hair and signs herself with #killallmen. Get over it.
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Apr 25, 2015 20:43
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CarrKnight posted:Not everybody who disagrees with you (and me) has dyed hair and signs herself with #killallmen. Get over it. Huh? You might be in the wrong thread. I mean, I'm sure there is some overlap between #killallmen and #angryaboutsushi but I didn't think I was describing garden variety angry feminists. People who (non ironically!) bring up CA as a tool to badger other people are profoundly childish and pretty much the textbook definition of Tumblerina
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Apr 25, 2015 20:47
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CarrKnight posted:No. Every example about CA brought forward turned out to be about something else. CA is terrible precisely because it is deployed so poorly. Things can actually be two things at once. Things can be cultural appropriation and also something else. Cole posted:this is my water fountain, not your water fountain Nah, that's segregation. We're talking more about "This is our sacred mountain, don't carve the heads of your presidents into the side of it, thanks." I mean, we already did that, but at least let's not do that again, that'd be really lovely of us. Anyway, as it was from the start, cultural appropriation is pretty simple, and the 'what to do' part about it is basic human decency. So you really don't have to worry about cultural appropriation that much if you're not a jerk and actually pay attention to what bothers other people and why. If you want to study the interaction of minority and majority group sociologically, cultural appropriation is a useful academic context. If you want to talk about one fo the ways the dominant culture erases minority culture, it's good for that too. But in the end it's just a concept and a phrase and you're not going to lose out by not using it as long as you get what the actual concept is.
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Apr 25, 2015 20:51
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Obdicut posted:Nah, that's segregation. We're talking more about "This is our sacred mountain, don't carve the heads of your presidents into the side of it, thanks." no, we're talking about white dudes singing along with rap music
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Apr 25, 2015 20:52
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Cole posted:no, we're talking about white dudes singing along with rap music Don't forget white male Americans eating Italian Ice, literally shaking here, don't even get me started on Taco Bell
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Apr 25, 2015 21:05
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Obsicut: "I am talking about this" Pauline Kael "No, I've decided you are talking about something completely different because it validates my fears of swarthy Italians and Mexicans taking away my desserts"
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Apr 25, 2015 21:07
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VitalSigns posted:Obsicut: "I am talking about this" You can pretend the concept of CA is whatever you like. The reality of CA, as used in 'popular' culture is a lot closer to how I'm describing it than some abstract academic concept, but by all means line up with fat angry white teenagers, I'm sure you'll fit right in
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Apr 25, 2015 21:21
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