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boom boom boom posted:It's really hard to overstate how revolutionary and original Gundam was. It created a new genre of anime, mecha anime where the robots were part of an existing military structure, and fought other military robots as part of a larger war. It was the first giant robot show where the main character didn't shout the names of his giant robot attacks, mainly because the giant robots in Gundam didn't have special attacks. No Rocket Punch, just shooting a gun. And the characterization was revolutionary too. Both sides had genuinely good people, it was the leaders who were incompetent, corrupt, o megalomaniacal. The main character, Amuro, isn't a hot-blooded youth out to save the world. When we first meet Amuro, he's a whining, cowardly teen. He tries to run away several times, he's really just the worst. He only pilots the Gundam because he was the one guy who could and didn't die when Zeon attacked. On the other hand, the main antagonist, Char, is cool, charming, and likable. He pilots his custom Zaku because he's the best pilot Zeon has. Over the course of the series we see Amuro grow into a responsible adult, and we discover that Char is actually a broken, bitter man. The show delivers a strong anti-war message, and the idea that it's the young who suffer when adults make war.  I love the hell out of Gundam but let's not pretend it's not really loving goofy at times
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Apr 24, 2015 22:18
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Slimnoid posted:Skaven for instance, were completely broken right from the get-go. Dirt cheap rats with slings was the big offender, as was anyone spamming two weapons because armor and shields were worthless. Dwarves too, what with their comparatively high toughness, access to armor that meant a gently caress, and only being able to be taken out on a 6, made any fight with them a total slog--and god forbid they lived long enough to get advancements. That's one of the big knocks on Mordheim to me, gear, armor in particular but a lot of weapons, too, was just too expensive relative to other things. That's one of the big problems that shows up with the d6 save thing, where armor's usefulness runs along a sharp curve relative to its value. And, yeah, the 90s were a bad time in game design in general, and while I wouldn't go so far as to say 40k 2nd ed was amazing, but it was significantly more highly placed in its category than the latest edition of 40k, because a lot of minis games are able to borrow mechanics from the board game revolution of the 2000s. Looking at tabletop games in general, they're so much better designed than they were 20-30 years ago, but 40k feels like it's actually worse in many ways than it was at that time.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:28
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LORD OF BUTT posted:
Yeah, stuff like the Gundam Hammer, the G-Fighter, and Zeon's absurd number of prototype Mobile Suits all show its' Super Robot heritage. It wasn't VOTOMS, but it was still a huge break through, and VOTOMS wouldn't've existed without it
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Apr 24, 2015 22:55
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JcDent posted:As for 30K, how much of it being better is because they basically have 3 armies? And the bigger part of it is played with Marines? Heck, before Admech and SA, you only needed to balance Marines against Marines. Can't be that many rules and USRs to make them as varied as normal ham armies. Also, doesn't it use the main 7th ed rulebook as base, stupid bloated USR and psychic phase an all? Its like a total conversion: Warhammer 6.5 edition. You use 7th edition core rules, but they get modified with 6th edition type restrictions. Only troops score. There's a different FOC, rules for LOWs, different rules for D weapons, new special rules etc. All of that combined makes it play familiar, but different. You're not wrong, there are currently about 4 different armies, and part of the balance comes from that. I don't think that's really a bad thing because all the legions have different rules. Everybody gets 2-3 unique units, a few HQs, and some special relics, pieces of wargar, and FOC options. They're still marines, its true, but you have lots of options to make different armies. SA and Admech make things even more interesting. Admech are 3 armies in their own right (one of which is really limited at the moment, but its still more than most GW codex expansion things). The other part is the amount of choice. There are about 40 units that a legion army can take and, depending on your legion, FOC, and ROW, about 15 are pretty good. That means you can play a lot of interesting ways despite the usual unbalanced chaff. It's not perfect, is still Warhammer, costs way too much, and its still GW. But it's a better warhammer game... for now.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:22
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Original Rogue Trader actually required a Dungeon Master. You had DBA in the 90s that pretty much just over took all historical wargaming it seems at least in my area. I assume everyone who played DBA is dead now as they were loving old back then. You had Avalon Hill putting out stuff, which I think is the the time of the Ye Olden Hexgrid For like that time though there just wasn't a large scale Fantasy or Science Fiction game pthat wasn't complete and utter just rancid poo poo the only exception being Battletech. Vor the Maelstrom maybe? That died pretty fast. West End Games Star Wars was complete poo poo. Otherwise GW reigned supreme because it was the most accessible wargame out there, with for the time pretty solid rules, good back ground, actual support etc.. Oh wait you also had Heavy Gear. GW now is just basically built on the backs of 30 years of being the only real game around that was widely supported with regular releases, kick rear end miniatures, and players. There are much better rule sets now, I mean the Batman Miniature Game has better rules than GW ever had. It's only though cause of GW being the shitmongers they are and bleeding talent like a Haemophiliac in a razor factory that we've gotten all these great games. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 23:27
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Panzeh posted:That's one of the big knocks on Mordheim to me, gear, armor in particular but a lot of weapons, too, was just too expensive relative to other things. That's one of the big problems that shows up with the d6 save thing, where armor's usefulness runs along a sharp curve relative to its value. Me my chums did a bunch of Mordenheim campaigns and the best ones were where gear was limited. A elite human with a spear and heavy armor is not broken but a pimped vampire in gromil is almost immune to chump mordaheim gangers. Skaven start really strong but dwarves really do not. Their armor starts too expensive and dwarf starts aren't that great. Remember in mordaheim gold should stay kinda scarce. Yeah Mordenheim could be broken but it had a ton of heart.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:29
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I've heard that one of the editions of Warzone was pretty good, actually, and the main problem was that the parent company of the company that made it went under because they hosed a lot of other stuff up. I don't know for sure, but I do know that the new Warzone Resurrection models look like they own pretty hard and the rules look pretty decent.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:30
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The Living Necromunda rulebook that actually was rewritten and you can download for free is pretty awesome set of rules. They also I think redid Mordheim and fixed everything wrong with it. Also all miniature games are board games. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 23:32
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people are not talking about a Living-necromunda rulebook, there reminiscing about playing it back in the day - and trying to play with 20 year old rules isn't fun any more (although it was back then)
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Apr 24, 2015 23:35
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Mordaheim was greatest when you play bunches of scruffy chumps and they guy with actual armor was king of the hill. The game is best at the ghetto level and its the armies the broke that mold that made things unfun. So any news of what the hell is happening in fantasy? Mantic is laughing all the way to the bank right now.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:39
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The only miniatures wargame that did any notable competition with GW prior to Warmachine and Confrontation was WarZone (and to a much lesser extent Chronopia). There were others that came and wen't but Target/Heartbreaker were the only guys who got any real traction. The first real competition came from MageKnight which was honestly the first real table top wargame that was engineered using what we think of now as "good" game design. I know a lot of people will discount MK because of it's later glaring issues, but seriously read the firsthand account of the creation of Mage Knight, it's really cool: http://www.strats-welt.at/mk/download/articles/The%20Complete%20Confessions%20Of%20A%20Rebellion%20Playtester.pdf
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Apr 24, 2015 23:42
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boom boom boom posted:Yeah, stuff like the Gundam Hammer, the G-Fighter, and Zeon's absurd number of prototype Mobile Suits all show its' Super Robot heritage. It wasn't VOTOMS, but it was still a huge break through, and VOTOMS wouldn't've existed without it For anyone that's interested, the newer gundam 00 series really nails the whole geopolitical warfare angle. As someone who more or less stopped watching anime because of the amount of weird school girl bullshit now-a-days. 99% of the time things are really toned back.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:48
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Renfield posted:people are not talking about a Living-necromunda rulebook, there reminiscing about playing it back in the day - and trying to play with 20 year old rules isn't fun any more (although it was back then) No I'm just saying for future reference , I still do play Necromunda but with the updated living rulebook. I wasn't sure if people were aware that they have something similar for Mordheim. El Estrago Bonito posted:The only miniatures wargame that did any notable competition with GW prior to Warmachine and Confrontation was WarZone (and to a much lesser extent Chronopia). There were others that came and wen't but Target/Heartbreaker were the only guys who got any real traction. The first real competition came from MageKnight which was honestly the first real table top wargame that was engineered using what we think of now as "good" game design. I know a lot of people will discount MK because of it's later glaring issues, but seriously read the firsthand account of the creation of Mage Knight, it's really cool: http://www.strats-welt.at/mk/download/articles/The%20Complete%20Confessions%20Of%20A%20Rebellion%20Playtester.pdf Mageknight was pretty awesome, but yeah it sucked eventually, but hey Heroclix!!
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Apr 24, 2015 23:52
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I'm hoping warhammer ends up with the same 'GW killed it, fans vastly improve rules and it carries on' thing. Also,  at using D&D of all things as an example of how little GW has evolved, given the new D&D edition exists to pretty much roll back 4e.Reality Balls will be the new 4e.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:55
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petrol blue posted:I'm hoping warhammer ends up with the same 'GW killed it, fans vastly improve rules and it carries on' thing. 4e was good tho
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Apr 24, 2015 23:57
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Fair point. Wasn't a fan myself, but it did what it set out to do very well. Honestly, I see D&D as being very similar to GW. The 'industry' it's in has vastly outpaced it (in terms of design and marketing), smaller competitors are slowly nibbling away at it's market dominance, and it's leaning heavily on a shrinking number of whales. Not to mention having made steps forward (necromunda, mordheim, 4e), and then disavowing those steps the second they could (for totally different reasons, mind you).
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Apr 25, 2015 00:11
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Guys I think GW may have a bit TOO much of a hard-on for Chaos. Am I drunk??? Or gay??? Or is this agreed upon by many?
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Apr 25, 2015 00:17
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JcDent posted:As for setting, that's the thing: 40K had two decades to build up a universe around it. In light of that, Warpath seems somewhat... bland. A Corporation Named Corporation, a subversive virus called the plague. Will it develop into something interesting like the Technocracy (oWoD) over time? Maybe. Unlikely. So there's that. At least Judge Dredd has so much to fall back on. There is no corporation called corporation, corporation is a type of force, there are some mentioned in the fluff but you can also make your own - the equivalent of space marine chapters. The setting is about modern neoliberalism: human government is a cartel of the largest corporations - humanity conquers space by showing up promising shiny things if local governments sign contracts and make reforms, then once everything is in place the locals realise that they've been screwed, all their resources now belong to humanity and its only if they try to get out of them that corporate troops appear. The space elves are so few in number that they are completely reliant on drone warfare The space dwarves are one of the few societies that was developed enough (and isolationist) when humans found them that they have not been subsumed, instead selling their old shittier gear to humanity at high prices - (I sort of wonder if this is meant to be a china analogue) The orx (futuristic!) are dudes that the humans hired, armed and trained to do their dirty work for them who, once self sufficient immediately turned on humanity - they represent third world mercenaries/warlords/taliban types The plague is quite generic but the point of it is "corporations will risk lives for profit" - they cause outbreaks by dicking around with ancient artefacts that they know can cause the plague, then they just wipe out the entire area if things go south The rebs are space communists/anarchists/whatever you want them to be, and they're made up of the various races humanity has successfully subjugated so get the most alien variety (but are still typically lead by humans) including teleporting space tortoise people, shark dudes and more Zzor and Veermyn have less fluff as they're not in deadzone yet but veermyn are basically an ecological disaster caused by human indifference rather than by direct risk taking like the plague and I imagine zzor will be the mindless enemy you can't buy out and therefore potentially the danger the corporations are most afraid of. It's a much less silly setting but it's definitely well thought out and consistent, everyone has a niche in the fluff and there's some moral ambiguity - the corporations are obviously amoral but they do bring technology and stability to the universe. Dreadball is meant to distract society from the shady things the corporations do - it's the circuses part of bread and circuses.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:18
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w00tmonger posted:For anyone that's interested, the newer gundam 00 series really nails the whole geopolitical warfare angle. As someone who more or less stopped watching anime because of the amount of weird school girl bullshit now-a-days. 99% of the time things are really toned back. Yeah, the first season of Gundam 00 is really solid, and it's available on youtube with English subtitles! Seriously y'all, just watch the opening scene, it owns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR7DRNz9t_0
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Apr 25, 2015 00:22
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Phoon posted:Warpath stuff Out of curiosity, what is the fluff reason for Veer-myn and Asterians being present in Dreadball? It doesn't sound like either faction would be like "Yes, sure, we'll play your bloodsport that you broadcast on TV, human!" Captives or something?
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Apr 25, 2015 00:23
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I think veermyn it's basically their only chance to get anywhere in human society and humans have lots of nice things - plus they have human managers who are exploiting them for profit, Asterians it's a pride thing, they're arrogant in the way elves always are in every setting. E: human space being ultra capitalist means that if you've got the skills the rewards can be greater than you would get at home so that explains most of the intelligent teams - the zzor, I think the book suggests they have been captured and experimented on and I forget what the deal is with the nameless, they're weird Phoon fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 00:27
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boom boom boom posted:Yeah, the first season of Gundam 00 is really solid, and it's available on youtube with English subtitles! Seriously y'all, just watch the opening scene, it owns. I am very confused at this intro. Why are the brown people clearly white? Why are the american troops shooting at whites? The horror!
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Apr 25, 2015 00:32
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BULBASAUR posted:I am very confused at this intro. Why are the brown people clearly white? Why are the american troops shooting at whites? Those aren't American troops. The people getting shot are Kurds, the robots are from the fiction future nation of Azadistan, which is located where Iran is now, and the Gundam that appears at the end is from the terrorist organization Celestial Being. This is all explained later in the series.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:39
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TheChirurgeon posted:I don't see the benefit in insisting that the game 20/30/40 years ago should be considered out of context. Modern games have the benefit of working off the last 20 years, which is one of the reasons they provide a less favorable comparison. It's possible for a game to be comparatively lovely now but not in the context of when it was released. See also: Most NES games. By modern conventions, the original Super Mario Bros, Dragon Warrior, Castlevania, and Mega Man are all bad games. But it'd be ludicrous to remove them from their resepctive contexts and argue that they've always been lovely games. You can do it, but what new insight are we supposed to glean from the idea that the earlier attempts aren't as polished or well-designed as the later ones? I think a not insignificant number of people could and would argue that, for example, the original Super Mario Bros. Isn't lovely now just because Super Mario Galaxy exists. A lot of decades old games are still held up as good, solid, and enjoyable to play and not just in some post neo ironic retro nostalgia sense. Meanwhile, plenty of those games' contemporaries are largely forgotten, but I don't think it was because they were "good for the time" and got superseded by later developments, it was because they were largely forgettable even back then. I'm not trying to dispute that "it was good when we were 12 and didn't know any better or have any other options" isn't a valid way to look at things, but that's not "good for its time" to me. A game that's good for its time is a game that's, y'know, still good despite the limitations of the time or level of development in vogue, not a game that's "good" because its the only one in town which seems to be what people are saying about 40K.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:51
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Wait so is Celestial Being the Americans in this, or are they just the evil terrorists? This is all very confusing. I would appreciate further explanation.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:52
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BULBASAUR posted:Wait so is Celestial Being the Americans in this, or are they just the evil terrorists? It's basically Gundam Wing: Redux.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:58
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I agree with KT. The Sistine chapel was good for its time. Mullets were not.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:59
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"Old game rules were bad" and "They were the best we had" aren't mutually exclusive.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:06
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BULBASAUR posted:Wait so is Celestial Being the Americans in this, or are they just the evil terrorists? In Gundam 00, the world has largely been divided into three power blocs. The Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations (or Unión de Energía Solar y Naciones Libres) covers North and South America, Australia, Japan, and most Pacific Island states. The USA is effectively the leader of the Union. Celestial Being is a secret terrorist organization that reveals itself at the beginning of the series.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:10
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Crackbone posted:"Old game rules were bad" and "They were the best we had" aren't mutually exclusive. They aren't, but the latter statement isn't always as true as people make it out to be. That's why the idea of, say, D&D3E being held up as "good for its time" strikes me as ridiculous when you consider that its a contemporary of things like Vampire/World of Darkness, Feng Shui (written in part by Robin Laws, a guy who's still considered one of the elfgame hobby's Dudes Who Know Their poo poo), Unknown Armies, GURPS, etc. e; to use a board game example it's a bit like holding up Dead of Winter as "good for its time" because some people just loving love zombies.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:16
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Giving it a watch, and I'm not sold so far - mainly because there isn't really any sense of size to the fight. Like, there's a dude-shaped robot hiding in cover, popping out, and there's no momentum to it, it might as well be a person in goofy armour. It's one thing Pacific Rim really got right, those mechs felt heavy. Otherwise, they're just very angular space marines kicking over someones model trains. e: 5:25, that is a proper Big No, I'll give it that. e2: Holy poo poo this is bad. I don't get why anime gets away with such horrific direction, scripts, voice acting, characterisation, and everything else, when a live action show with the same quality would get ripped to shreds... It is a GW metaphor. petrol blue fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 01:26
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petrol blue posted:
It its defense, this is dubbing for a kids show from a long time ago before they had discovered subtitle technology and also how to make gigantic fistfulls of money from anime technology right? Edit yeah this is from 1989. A LOT of early anime, especially the mass kids stuff, works better if not dubbed. I mean a lot of this stuff isn't that polished anyway, but watching it dubbed just adds more grit to it.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:54
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Totoro was made back then and it is good and my favorite. All the gundam money went into engineering good toys.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:59
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Every time somebody recommends a good anime, there are indeed moments it's legitimately good and the writing is strong. Then, suddenly, you are subject to a cute shower scene, quiet but strong protagonist type, or any other collection of teenage anime tropes and it just makes me hate myself. Much like the experience of reading GW fluff.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:03
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BULBASAUR posted:Every time somebody recommends a good anime, there are indeed moments it's legitimately good and the writing is strong. Then, suddenly, you are subject to a cute shower scene, quiet but strong protagonist type, or any other collection of teenage anime tropes and it just makes me hate myself. Gundam 0080 doesn't have any of those.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:04
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BULBASAUR posted:Every time somebody recommends a good anime, there are indeed moments it's legitimately good and the writing is strong. Then, suddenly, you are subject to a cute shower scene, quiet but strong protagonist type
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Apr 25, 2015 02:05
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BULBASAUR posted:Every time somebody recommends a good anime, there are indeed moments it's legitimately good and the writing is strong. Then, suddenly, you are subject to a cute shower scene, quiet but strong protagonist type, or any other collection of teenage anime tropes and it just makes me hate myself. Really, you should just watch JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. It has fabulous men posing at each other and then punching the everloving poo poo out of things, and at no point do you think that the show is smelling its own farts. Comedy option: Ghost Stories english dub is a loving trip. It's basically DBZ Abridged before DBZ Abridged was a thing and takes the piss out of the lovely storyline by having the VA's ad-lib most of their lines to great effect.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:18
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FrostyPox posted:Out of curiosity, what is the fluff reason for Veer-myn and Asterians being present in Dreadball? It doesn't sound like either faction would be like "Yes, sure, we'll play your bloodsport that you broadcast on TV, human!" Captives or something? There's rumors that it's a charade and it's just robots or humans in alienface. The Asterians are almost certainly not genuine.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:21
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MasterSlowPoke posted:There's rumors that it's a charade and it's just robots or humans in alienface. The Asterians are almost certainly not genuine. That's... that's actually amazing and it has literally multiplied my interest in Warpath/Deadzone/Dreadball.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:30
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MasterSlowPoke posted:There's rumors that it's a charade and it's just robots or humans in alienface. The Asterians are almost certainly not genuine. This had better be true. This would be the best.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:32
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