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Collateral Damage posted:So out of curiosity, what would be the correct way to dispose of something that turns out to be radioactive? Dig a hole, leave it for someone else. Actually out here they have hazardous item turn ins every few months for stuff like paint, mercury containing stuff, etc.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:41
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xzzy posted:For businesses that deal with radioactive crap? They need to have management and disposal plans on file. Ahahaha, have anything resembling "plans". Or safety equipment, or training, or workman's comp, or minimum wage, or... I'm glad I quit that job. On the other hand, I did pick up the ability to light an oxyacetylene torch using a lit cigarette from the boss, so that's gotta be worth something. Same guy later came up with the idea of hauling off old tires from tire shops, shredding them, and selling the shredded rubber as playground cover material. He never did get to the point of figuring out how to remove shredded steel belts from the rubber so it would be safe to use. The EPA caught up to him for having two acres of used tires piled fifteen feet high, and not having a sprinkler system (or anything else, like a working phone to call the fire department) to put out any potential tire fire. That was after I quit, though. (I'm pretty sure, if I still worked for him when the price of copper shot through the roof, I'd have wound up becoming a copper thief. Dude just didn't care about safety or legality or basic human decency or anything else that stopped him from making a quick buck on scrap metal.) xzzy posted:For the average joe that finds a radioactive chunk of something in a ditch? No loving clue. Pretty sure it goes like this: try to sell it -> get caught by the detector -> detained by police -> interview with the EPA to determine source of material and/or intentions of the seller -> EPA handles disposal.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:52
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Yeah, bad poo poo can happen with radioactive salvage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident
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Apr 24, 2015 17:57
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rndmnmbr posted:Ahahaha, have anything resembling "plans". Or safety equipment, or training, or workman's comp, or minimum wage, or... I'm glad I quit that job. On the other hand, I did pick up the ability to light an oxyacetylene torch using a lit cigarette from the boss, so that's gotta be worth something. Well I can't comment on scrap companies, I was more talking about companies that actually produce radioactive materials. They do have to jump through hoops to be able to do their job.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:02
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xzzy posted:For the average joe that finds a radioactive chunk of something in a ditch? No loving clue. Actually, half life and radioactivity are more of an inverse relationship, the lower the halflife the faster it decays and therefore the more radioactive it is (until it finishes decaying, but most horribly radioactive stuff decays into more horribly radioactive stuff until it either splits into atoms smaller than iron, or turns into lead...) while higher half lives are less radioactive. For example, iodine 131 (a common fission byproduct of U-235) has a half life of about a week, and is horribly radioactive, it and radioactive cesium/strontium are some of the worse radioactive contaminants from reactor accidents because they are taken up by the body since they are chemically similar to calcium and chlorine, where they end up in milk (I-131) and your bones (cesium/strontium) and cause cancer. Meanwhile U-238 has a half life of 4.5 billion years, and is so weakly radioactive you can hold it in your hand for a long rear end time before you get any noticeable radiation dose.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:23
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There's a pretty good thread on jalopnik right now about engineering failures. It has a few parallels to this thread like that four-chain audi v8 http://jalopnik.com/what-obvious-engineering-disaster-was-weirdly-put-into-1699454086
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Apr 24, 2015 18:25
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Collateral Damage posted:So out of curiosity, what would be the correct way to dispose of something that turns out to be radioactive? Find your local college. A lot of them have designated radioisotope disposal programs that are MORE than willing to take household radioisotopes. Barring that, send them to me  (This is a joke. Don't do this.)kastein posted:Actually, half life and radioactivity are more of an inverse relationship, the lower the halflife the faster it decays and therefore the more radioactive it is (until it finishes decaying, but most horribly radioactive stuff decays into more horribly radioactive stuff until it either splits into atoms smaller than iron, or turns into lead...) while higher half lives are less radioactive. For example, iodine 131 (a common fission byproduct of U-235) has a half life of about a week, and is horribly radioactive, it and radioactive cesium/strontium are some of the worse radioactive contaminants from reactor accidents because they are taken up by the body since they are chemically similar to calcium and chlorine, where they end up in milk (I-131) and your bones (cesium/strontium) and cause cancer. Meanwhile U-238 has a half life of 4.5 billion years, and is so weakly radioactive you can hold it in your hand for a long rear end time before you get any noticeable radiation dose. Kinda like how movies portray Plutonium as radioactively deadly toxic if you touch it.... ...which really isn't true, its toxic if you INGEST it, but otherwise you can handle Plutonium while wearing rubber gloves and a standard mask and basically be safe. Should you though? No. totalnewbie posted:Yeah, bad poo poo can happen with radioactive salvage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident Now Cesium, THERE is some nasty poo poo. Not only is it INCREDIBLY radioactive, if its close to pure, its reactive as its a alkali metal. Cesium-137 is one of the more common radioisotopes released from weapons testing and nuclear accidents, and while short lived (~30 years), it replaces Calcium in the natural cycle. So, basically, if you eat meat of an animal that has eaten grass/etc. from a contaminated area, instead of perfectly stable calcium, you get radioactive cesium, which goes into your bones. So, lightweight chemo for your bone marrow.  Francium is EVEN worse, being the heaviest of the Alkali metals, but you'll only find it in a contaminated or melted down reactor. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 18:27
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totalnewbie posted:Yeah, bad poo poo can happen with radioactive salvage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident Guess what happens when you hold up a cargo truck and steal stuff you didn't know what radioactive?? You die!
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Apr 24, 2015 18:32
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The Midniter posted:Guess what happens when you hold up a cargo truck and steal stuff you didn't know what radioactive?? You die! Its funny being in a nuclear physics program. Nobody is afraid of Plutonium or Uranium, rightly so, but Cobalt-60? gently caress that noise, keep it away.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:36
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xzzy posted:Well I can't comment on scrap companies, I was more talking about companies that actually produce radioactive materials. They do have to jump through hoops to be able to do their job. Or just pay off the right people so you can spray it on the roads. http://www.newsweek.com/oil-and-gas-wastewater-used-de-ice-roads-new-york-and-pennsylvania-little-310684
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Apr 24, 2015 18:44
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CommieGIR posted:Kinda like how movies portray Plutonium as radioactively deadly toxic if you touch it.... Back to the Future taught me that you can handle Plutonium safely with a brief case 
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Apr 24, 2015 18:46
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bull3964 posted:Or just pay off the right people so you can spray it on the roads.  This has some truth to it but is laden with bullshit scare tactics aimed at people who don't understand chemistry or nuclear physics. The points about bromine and iodine are valid, but they admit further down that they're the same ratios that exist in... you guessed it... regular road salt, since the halogen half of the salt is the same natural ratio of chlorine/iodine/bromine. The point about chlorine is great too, but, uh, guess what road salt is? Sodium chloride or calcium chloride. AKA same poo poo as the brine. The radioactivity - they never say how radioactive it is but they do state near the bottom of the article that the state did a study and decided it wasn't an issue. This is the same grade of inaccurate, hyped up bullshit that gets spread around by antivaxxers. CommieGIR posted:Its funny being in a nuclear physics program. Nobody is afraid of Plutonium or Uranium, rightly so, but Cobalt-60? gently caress that noise, keep it away. Plutonium is some loving scary poo poo but not because of radioactivity really. A 4 inch sphere is a critical mass. Of course that's billions of dollars so no worries about seeing one. It has a handful of phases/allotropes with different crystal structures and densities. A change in temperature can make a somewhat-less-than-critical mass into a critical mass by density change alone. It autoignites on contact with air. The oxide takes up ~2/3 more volume than the metal it was formed from, so if it ignites, it's going to burst whatever container you had it in. It's horrifically toxic, even for a heavy metal. Even if you don't die from the toxicity, a couple milligrams inhaled will probably give you cancer due to it being a carcinogen, not because of radiation. I'd still rather handle it than, say, Co-60 or Po-218. kastein fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 18:49
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veedubfreak posted:Back to the Future taught me that you can handle Plutonium safely with a brief case I'd be more worried about a criticality incident than health effects from exposure. kastein posted:Plutonium is some loving scary poo poo but not because of radioactivity really. Yup. Basically, the samples I'v ever handled are minute, less than a few grams, and even those are sealed into their own packaging with mineral oil and inaccessible. The auto-ignition thing is less of a concern that way. The BIGGEST initial fear after the effects of radioactivity was discovered was exposure to the dust. Thankfully, thusfar multiple people (Hiroshima/Nagasaki survivors and Manhattan Project/Nuclear Testing workers) have shown very little in the way of life threatening illness directly from Plutonium, more from other sources (Cesium/Strontium/Etc.) There was one guy even CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 18:54
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Just had a thought reading the radioactive disposal crap. What are you supposed to do with asbestos? How do you know if something is asbestos? We work on a lot of old bikes at our shop, routinely replace and throw out old brake shoes. We try to be real careful with the dust from the things, wet it down and wipe it off etc, but we don't pay attention to where it goes once we throw it out.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:57
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You probably should forget you ever said that, first of all. Old bikes as in motorcycles? Yeah, that's probably asbestos. You probably should not be doing that, either, because you're going to get asbestosis or mesothelioma eventually. There is no safe exposure level for asbestos, though normally it is an issue if it's occupational... which yours is.  If you have any of this in writing your life is going to become complicated and a lot of agencies will be involved very quickly. Sane steps to take - - soak that poo poo down. Preferably completely saturate it with soapy water before disassembly, then disassemble it, then flush it all through a filter that'll get the fibers out of the water before disposing of the water. A HEPA filter would be a good start but I'm not sure they're rated for that. - keep it wet. Wash everything. Make sure the filter stays adequately wet (that's an actual technical term in asbestos abatement) and double bag it. If you want to do things properly, you need to dispose of any ACM (asbestos containing materials) double bagged and labeled, at an appropriate asbestos-licensed disposal facility. Otherwise... yeah, they probably go in the trash unpackaged, which is Bad. The way most people working on old cars/trucks/bikes with asbestos brakes/clutches/gaskets/cable insulation is "pretend we had no idea it could be ACM and throw it out" which is not good. Unfortunately this is because there's a perverse incentive to doing so, because having the material tested and finding out it is ACM means you then have to have it done by someone properly licensed in a proper way and disposal must be done properly as well, which adds a digit or two to the cost of everything.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:08
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Yeah, asbestos stuff is very heavily regulated. I haven't had to personally deal with it in my line of work (environmental compliance), but I can generally confirm what was stated above. Regulations will vary based on state/local government though, so I can't really speak to specifics. Short version: stop messing with the stuff, get your poo poo tested, and pay someone else to deal with it.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:29
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CommieGIR posted:There was one guy even 3.55 micro cubic inches? I'd love to read about this.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:51
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^^Micro curies.CommieGIR posted:Its funny being in a nuclear physics program. Nobody is afraid of Plutonium or Uranium, rightly so, but Cobalt-60? gently caress that noise, keep it away. Meanwhile as a radiographer, Co-60 is a daily thing in a big enough lab and never worry about it. Although Iridium is much more common, but the loving 74 day half life means you spend a lot more. Or, like when I was in Guam, you have to order a source twice what you need/want so it's still usable when it gets there.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:06
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smax posted:Yeah, asbestos stuff is very heavily regulated. I haven't had to personally deal with it in my line of work (environmental compliance), but I can generally confirm what was stated above. Regulations will vary based on state/local government though, so I can't really speak to specifics. Well the problem is, existing stocks of products already made with asbestos were allowed to be used up even after the ban, and guess what? Some products are STILL allowed to contain it. The procedure for asbestos brake shoes is basically "try not to inhale the dust" and a lot (and I mean a lot) of shops treat em basically like any other brake product. No one is dumb enough to actually put asbestos in stuff still, but if you get a car or truck that was made in the 80s or before, there's a good chance the original pads/shoes/clutch contained asbestos, and if it was made in the 70s and still has those parts original it's almost guaranteed. I'm sure my military truck's brakes and/or clutch are asbestos containing, and I haven't really decided what I'm doing about it. Hopefully I never have to touch the brakes and I'm really hoping to be able to remove the engine/trans as a unit and put the new ones in, then sell the original drivetrain to someone else and make it Not My Problem.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:22
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My house was built in 1951 and still has the original(ish) kitchen. That includes plastic tiles on the walls. There's a not-insignificant chance that the adhesive for those tiles contains asbestos which may be a nightmare when I eventually have it remodeled.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:29
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Well thanks I guess. I hadn't even considered there might be asbestos in old cars until you guys brought it up. So how common was that stuff late 70's (1977) or late 40's (1948)?
NitroSpazzz fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 20:43
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40s it was everywhere. 70s it was starting to be banned (although it's apparently snot technically banned in the US even today, which I didn't know  ), I don't know the time frame when most brake manufacturers started switching over, but better safe than sorry imo.The trouble is that aside from toxicity, asbestos really was fantastic for the applications it was used for. Insulation, cement, acid resistance, it's got all kinds of great properties. Which meant it was used in everything; some cigarettes even use(d) it in their filters.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:55
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iwentdoodie posted:^^Micro curies. We've had that issue before, and it was hilarious because the package got delayed for 2 weeks. Guess how usable it was?
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Apr 24, 2015 21:06
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While we're on asbestos-chat, keep in mind that even though recently-made brake/clutch components don't have asbestos, any fine dust like what is generated by brakes and clutches, can cause significant lung damage.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:16
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Yeah, any kind of fine dust of some sort that won't break down and get flushed out by the body is bad loving news. Silicate dust (very fine sand or glass dust)? Silicosis. Asbestos? Asbestosis. There's a growing body of research that says fiberglass and most other similar insoluble particulate matter with sharp edges is a cancer risk too. Guess where Raybestos got their name?  No companies making friction parts in the US that I'm aware of still use asbestos because it's a huge liability even if it was allowed. No one wants their name on something like that these days. However I would bet on anything made in the 70s having it in the brakes and clutch and possibly things in the 80s too, especially if the design hadn't been changed since the 70s or a parts crossref tool shows that the pads/shoes fit a vehicle from the 70s or earlier as well. Some other poo poo used it too, like high temp wiring and (for instance) intake preheater hoses that went from the exhaust manifold shield to the air filter housing.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:26
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kastein posted:Yeah, any kind of fine dust of some sort that won't break down and get flushed out by the body is bad loving news. Silicate dust (very fine sand or glass dust)? Silicosis. Asbestos? Asbestosis. There's a growing body of research that says fiberglass and most other similar insoluble particulate matter with sharp edges is a cancer risk too. + carbon fiber dust. It's apparently really, really bad as well.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:17
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ACVWs used asbestos in various places. Those drat pinch gaskets that attached the heater box to the exhaust were. I'm not sure but it's possible that the flexible hoses that go from the fan shroud to the heater pipes were insulated with asbestos. I'm wary as hell about the Niva's brakes and clutch. Even the new OEM shoes. The pads were Ferodo so they're probably okay but the shoes are OEM. I don't know what Russia's laws are on asbestos these days.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:50
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kastein posted:Well the problem is, existing stocks of products already made with asbestos were allowed to be used up even after the ban, and guess what? Some products are STILL allowed to contain it. The procedure for asbestos brake shoes is basically "try not to inhale the dust" and a lot (and I mean a lot) of shops treat em basically like any other brake product. No one is dumb enough to actually put asbestos in stuff still, but if you get a car or truck that was made in the 80s or before, there's a good chance the original pads/shoes/clutch contained asbestos, and if it was made in the 70s and still has those parts original it's almost guaranteed. So the brakes I did on that 63 Lincoln were asbestos....I told my boss and he called me a wuss. Good thing I always wear a respirator when there's brake dust involved.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:50
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SouthsideSaint posted:So the brakes I did on that 63 Lincoln were asbestos....I told my boss and he called me a wuss. Good thing I always wear a respirator when there's brake dust involved. I don't think Steve McQueen was a wuss and look how he died.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:04
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CharlesM posted:I don't think Steve McQueen was a wuss and look how he died. You are correct. That is one of the many reasons my resume has been sent to every mechanics shop hiring within a large radius
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Apr 25, 2015 00:12
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A friend said this came into his shop. The idler arm mount broke during the post-alignment test drive.  
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Apr 25, 2015 00:24
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iwentdoodie posted:Meanwhile as a radiographer, Co-60 is a daily thing in a big enough lab and never worry about it. Although Iridium is much more common, but the loving 74 day half life means you spend a lot more. And then I got injected with it. Probably got a decent chunk of my safe dose that day between that and being strapped in front of a particle accelerator for three hours.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:33
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Itzena posted:I remember having a CT scan a while back where the radiologist grabbed the dye out of a big lead box after putting a lead-lined apron on and the syringe had a little lead shield all around it. I bet that really inspired confidence!
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Apr 25, 2015 03:41
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Itzena posted:I remember having a CT scan a while back where the radiologist grabbed the dye out of a big lead box after putting a lead-lined apron on and the syringe had a little lead shield all around it. I had a PET scan... radioactive fluoride labelled glucose, you say... 48 minutes before it decays too much for the scan to be effective? Awesome.
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Apr 25, 2015 04:37
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smax posted:Yeah, asbestos stuff is very heavily regulated. I haven't had to personally deal with it in my line of work (environmental compliance), but I can generally confirm what was stated above. Regulations will vary based on state/local government though, so I can't really speak to specifics. I wish I could find someone here who gave a poo poo about it. My neighborhood is solid 50s tract homes and most of them have asbestos cement siding and who knows what adhesives and tile on the inside. Many of them are being demolished by flippers and they go with lowest bidder demolition teams who don't bother to properly dispose of the stuff and give their employees zero PPE. Contacting the city, state, and even the company providing waste hauling got me nowhere. I know the cement tiles are fairly innocuous for single exposures but those workers are likely regularly exposed. They are getting hosed and nobody cared.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:00
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General_Failure posted:I don't know what Russia's laws are on asbestos these days. Constantly ignored, I would say.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:15
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They need some kind of iron-fisted ruler to step up and set everything to rights or something
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Apr 25, 2015 05:21
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Data Graham posted:They need some kind of iron-fisted ruler to step up and set everything to rights or something This is Russia we are talking about, someone would have to Putin an awful lot of work to get anyone to actually follow the rules.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:49
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kastein posted:This is Russia we are talking about, someone would have to Putin an awful lot of work to get anyone to actually follow the rules. You know everyone before was Stalin, Lenin things go wrong for so long.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:58
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Wasabi the J posted:You know everyone before was Stalin, Lenin things go wrong for so long. 
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