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Rick_Hunter posted:As an instructor in a pharmacy school, the only reason this will happen is that pharmacy students are so god drat dumb, not because it increases efficiency. My girlfriend is starting Pharmacy School soon. Are we hosed?
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Apr 24, 2015 16:29
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Cognac McCarthy posted:That's the beauty of it, they don't need to be perfect, they just need to be better than humans, which isn't that hard That's not necessarily true; people are a lot more forgiving of humans than machines. And again there's a large amount of work you can do before you even think of automating jobs. The medical industry is bloated in the sense that people think the federal government is.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:30
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:My girlfriend is starting Pharmacy School soon. Are we hosed? No, people that talk about robots replacing pharmacists "soon" don't really understand what a pharmacist does outside of the retail setting. I'd be worried if you were a tech, maybe.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:35
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:My girlfriend is starting Pharmacy School soon. Are we hosed? The state of the pharmacy job market is what should concern you more than whether machines will take her job one day. Get out now.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:54
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Pharmacists also check to make sure that dosages are correct and that certain medications when mixed will not cause problems. A few weeks ago, we had to get medicine for my daughter. The doctor called it in but accidentally said double the correct dosage. The pharmacist caught it, contacted the doctor and set us up with the correct amount.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:36
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Pharmacists also check to make sure that dosages are correct and that certain medications when mixed will not cause problems. A machine would have caught that before the doctor finished calling it in.
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Apr 24, 2015 18:39
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:My girlfriend is starting Pharmacy School soon. Are we hosed? I'll explain a little more: The problem with many professional programs is that they are literally running a long term con on the students. They are asking them to take tens of thousands of dollars in debt for the prospect of having marketable skills which are very much needed but in fields that are overly saturated with talent and numbers. You get a PharmD? Great. You just joined 5000 others that year. So much for being unique.  In my 2 years as an instructor (really, I'm a TA), I have had some of the highest highs as students actually learn to do basic compounding and the lowest lows because they don't understand basic compounding. Compounding is becoming kind of a lost art because so much of formulation is done by manufacturers in plants and factories. The 3 things that I've tried to teach them repeatedly is that: 1. Always leave a paper trail. Just because you write something on one piece of paper doesn't mean everyone will automatically know where it is. If poo poo goes wrong, you need to have documentation. 2. Use some loving common sense. We had an aseptic technique class where they prepared a saline syringe for injection. When it was time to dispose of stuff, I had over half a class (13 students) ask me, 'What should I do with this saline?' - It's salt water. Pour it down the loving drain.  3. This is the big one - you are training to be a professional, act like one. There's at least one person in every class that treats everything like undergrad. No, you can't show up 20 minutes late and just say, 'Sorry, I was late'. If you showed up to a career job like that, you'd be fired after the second offense. Always make sure people know if anything comes up and always have contingencies. Employers will rarely take an excuse. Combining all of these makes it highly possible that a robot can do a pharmacists job not because they are better at dispensing but because robots won't gently caress up a prepared program, will keep everything on record, and not show up late.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:07
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Oh, that's good news, my girlfriend majored in Chemistry and she wants to go into compounding or nuclear medicine. I assume she'd be worse off if she wanted to work at CVS for the rest of her life.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:34
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Oh, that's good news, my girlfriend majored in Chemistry and she wants to go into compounding or nuclear medicine. Compounding is fun and important, I'll give it that. But so many students view it as a inconvenience never mind the fact that they routinely gently caress up basic drug dispensing. If you have to deal with a pharmacist that looks like he or she's been in the profession for 10 years, you double check that they gave you the right prescription. After what I've seen, I will be double checking any prescriptions that are filled by students from a certain [Pacific Northwest Regional Pharmacy School].
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Apr 24, 2015 20:54
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Iron Crowned posted:A machine would have caught that before the doctor finished calling it in. https://medium.com/backchannel/how-technology-led-a-hospital-to-give-a-patient-38-times-his-dosage-ded7b3688558
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Apr 24, 2015 21:23
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Gounads posted:https://medium.com/backchannel/how-technology-led-a-hospital-to-give-a-patient-38-times-his-dosage-ded7b3688558 I actually forwarded this to all of my students. I am THAT serious about how they need to not gently caress up a patient's order.
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Apr 24, 2015 21:35
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My only experience with pharm school is my uncle who got expelled for stealing drugs from the lab and selling them on the street. So point for machines, they can't do THAT.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:09
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quote:The reasoning at the time was that, in a teaching hospital with lots of patients with rare diseases, many of them on research protocols, such “overdoses” would usually be okay. A system with hundreds of “hard stops” would lead to many angry phone calls from frustrated doctors to pharmacists, demanding that they override the block. A middle ground here would be to have some obnoxious full-screen flashing red popup warning about the dose screaming ARE YOU SURE YOU AREN'T ABOUT TO KILL SOMEONE?
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Apr 24, 2015 22:20
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:My only experience with pharm school is my uncle who got expelled for stealing drugs from the lab and selling them on the street. So point for machines, they can't do THAT. We recently had new rules instituted that made us inventory every single drug (including acetaminophen (Tylenol), ibuprofen (Advil), and naproxen sodium (Aleve)) even though we're a teaching school and the majority of our drugs are 10 years past the expiration date and controlled substances are subbed by candy. Rather than have to deal with all that, we just disposed of all our inventory as chemical waste. The inventory system would have prevented things like the above but it's such a pain in the rear end. My official complaint is that now the students don't learn with actual drugs anymore. My unofficial complaint is that now I have to bring my own Aleve if I get a headache. 
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Apr 24, 2015 22:31
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Oh, that's good news, my girlfriend majored in Chemistry and she wants to go into compounding or nuclear medicine. Compounding is getting a little saturated too, and if the friends I know who are fleeing CVS like rats from a sinking ship are any indicator, nobody *wants* to work at CVS.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:32
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Rick_Hunter posted:We recently had new rules instituted that made us inventory every single drug (including acetaminophen (Tylenol), ibuprofen (Advil), and naproxen sodium (Aleve)) even though we're a teaching school and the majority of our drugs are 10 years past the expiration date and controlled substances are subbed by candy. Rather than have to deal with all that, we just disposed of all our inventory as chemical waste. The inventory system would have prevented things like the above but it's such a pain in the rear end. Had a girlfriend in pharmacy school at a minor regional university in this state a couple years ago, and apparently they learned using some fake pill that was never intended to be ingested. No idea what it was, I just remember it causing a bit of an incident when someone stole a bunch of them (assuming they were real drugs, presumably) and sold them to a bunch of people who all promptly got very sick.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:42
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:My only experience with pharm school is my uncle who got expelled for stealing drugs from the lab and selling them on the street. So point for machines, they can't do THAT. You just take the rejected pills. Every day hospital robots nicely package up tons of pills that then end up not being used or canceled for what ever reason. They can not be put back into the system and are supposed to be "thrown away" but some enterprising techs find uses for these pills. Waste not want not.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:52
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How in the gently caress do you give someone 38 pills without questioning if that's the right amount.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:11
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mr. mephistopheles posted:How in the gently caress do you give someone 38 pills without questioning if that's the right amount. Because no one questioned the order all the way to the patient. Even the patient didn't think it was weird. The article posted:Pablo [the patient] was accustomed to taking unusual medications, so he said that the Septra dose seemed okay. She handed the pills to her patient and he began to swallow them. Edit: Wow. That article series is loving fantastic! Actually reading about a problem that gets fixed in a way other than firing all of the people involved makes me...well... 
Rick_Hunter fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 23:18
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Rigged Death Trap posted:I don't think medicine is a place where machines will replace anyone, only augment their work. The human brain is basically just a machine, really. We like to think of ourselves as not machines but that's really all bodies are; unfathomably complex machines. People used to say that basically everything that is totally automated right now couldn't be automated but here we are. "A machine can't track inventory!" well actually it turns out that machines are way better at it we just need to fix any mistakes that come up which most of the time arise from human error along the way. "Machines can't drive cars!" well I hope you don't like to drive because before long machines will be doing that for you. "Machines can't guide you to your destination!" do you have a GPS? Guess what, that's a machine telling you how to get around. The only reason we can't automate a lot of things that humans are doing right now is that computers are loving stupid. They're way better at crunching numbers and doing math but there isn't enough processing power to completely replicate an actual brain. ...yet.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:26
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Okay, back to breaking this up until manageable chunks this week. I'll try even smaller, see if it helps. THIS WEEK IN LL101!  Still valiantly refusing to see the point Obama was making.  "Now more about people striking for a higher minimum wage need to stop ever bothering me".  Amazing how they don't specify where these wasteful programs are. Could they be military projects that won't be cut? Nah, thats silly, must be them throwing money in a hole.  We must FORCE people to accept peace on Americas terms.  Hey look, its another case that they can't blame the victim on.  If unequal pay exists, why does it EXIST? Hah, gotcha now, Hillary.  Thus by a constant shifting of Rhetorical focus, the enemy becomes Chuck Norris? WTF is this?  Why won't they vote for the Republican candidate who will surely have the opposite belief on ALL these things?  And the newest person to have the wagons circled around is Rubio, who they think people are criticizing for being too young, and not because he has the composure of a grade schooler who didn't rehearse.  How could any president be so irresponsible as to spend the money that COngress budgeted for and passed bills to spend.  "Democracy is overrated" - people who claim to be patriots.  Sure, the country didn't sdie as we we said it would under Obama, but NEXT ONE! Part 2 coming soon.
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Apr 25, 2015 03:57
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mr. mephistopheles posted:How in the gently caress do you give someone 38 pills without questioning if that's the right amount. Poor programming and tons of user error. That is how.
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Apr 25, 2015 03:58
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mr. mephistopheles posted:How in the gently caress do you give someone 38 pills without questioning if that's the right amount. Neruz posted:Poor programming and tons of user error. That is how. Pretty much this. It seems obvious when you state it but it isn't something you think about until it hits you in the face: computers do exactly what you tell them to do, for good or ill. Programming errors are because they did exactly what they were told to do: they didn't check the input was in the correct format, they were told to assume they had access to a file, they use the last field entered when populating a form because that's what a designer set it to do. They don't infer unless they're told to infer, they don't question unless they're told to question, they don't warn unless they're told to warn. It's great for repetitive low risk tasks if setup properly: I don't want to backup files by hand each night, I'll have this program check to make sure it can reach both locations and then transfer the files and check that they arrived, and if so delete the old files. But if you typo it and instead of pasting the right directory you put in the wrong drive and don't notice it, the program will happily wipe out whatever destination you put in that it has access to. Now imagine it's not a simple program but a complex, multi-system interface. The person who gave the medicine admitted it felt off, but if there's any place in these forums where people would recognize confirmation bias and how people create justifications to bypass cognitive dissonance, this is the thread. She thought it was wrong, but the competing thought was that the system in place was trustworthy. And besides, look how many other people saw this order down the line, surely they wouldn't have mistaken it. Plus we often have experimental treatments. Maybe this is diluted anyway. Cognitive dissonance resolved, the person decided not to further question the dosage flaw caused by poorly programmed systems and mistakes all down the line.
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Apr 25, 2015 04:41
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:My girlfriend is starting Pharmacy School soon. Are we hosed? Have her take up coding once she's all done with school and has free time. She'll be ready in time for all the jobs programming and maintaining pharmacybots.
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Apr 25, 2015 04:45
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Fulchrum posted:
Ahaha this is the perfect distillation of some people's total innumeracy when it comes to big numbers. Election spending? $7 billions Wasteful (to killjoy Tom Coburn) spending? $30 billions!  Money needed for infrastructure: $2,750 billions geez, all the money we need is right there, the government's just wasting it on elections and funding for the arts.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:24
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VideoTapir posted:Have her take up coding once she's all done with school and has free time. She'll be ready in time for all the jobs programming and maintaining pharmacybots. This is a legitimately good suggestion. Having training X + Programming makes you invaluable in the field of X for basically any field.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:56
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Magres posted:This is a legitimately good suggestion. Having training X + Programming makes you invaluable in the field of X for basically any field. Yeah, I know a lot of people that just went into CompSci because "everything is going to be programming eventually anyway" but are still stuck in just entry level jobs because they don't really understand what they're being asked to program, just the code itself, while the people I know who learned "X + Programming" are doing real well in their fields.
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Apr 25, 2015 08:29
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Fulchrum posted:
This is misogyny.jpg. We have finally found it. All of those are jokes people told about how loving awesome they thought Chuck Norris was, but because Hillary is a woman somehow they then become sick burns in the minds of really stupid people.
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Apr 25, 2015 11:22
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Anyway, part 2. You know what makes you look really mature and cool? Whining about the media.  Its amazing how the state wasn't being master when it was being dictatorial to all those miners.  Democrats are furious Republicans are trying to use something to score political points, and using something else to score political points? HYPOCRISY!  I like the lack of any compelling reason why thats a bad thing.  Refusing to let any form of personhood precedent be established? Nah, must be a love of killing babies.  Curse those scientists and their facts and objective reality!  Well, at least they're back to comparing her to the bad guys.  America: Where Children must be protected while things that arent children are not.  Even when trying to make a joke, Conservatives still think its all a messaging problem.  Thrreatening murder. I'm sure the bible doesn't condemn that.  By Mike Huckabee, with a 1st graders undetrstanding of the world. Look, the teacher even gave him three gold stickers.  Look at all these things Republicans will despise a woman for doing. Doesn;t it make you want to support them, women?  I swear, you could power a generator with the speed they go from doing something and attacking democrats for imagining they did it.  Number one - unsustainable. Number two, sustainable. Why are Liberals so opposed to one but not the other?   Look at all these gays in America killed by ISIS.  Shall we cut back to their whining about how the media insults them and disrespects them?  She says an accurate thing - how stupid is she!  And more whining about the free market. Yaaay.  Yeah, I'm sure the public will go back to being troglodytes on gay marriage ANY SECOND NOW!  There isn't a gently caress you big enough.  He once knew MUSLIMS! Sure, he killed the top ranking terroist and has executed more by drone than ever before, but look, he KNEW them!  It could have been WELL OFF WHITE PEOPLE who were aborted!  Yes, Hillary Clintons accomplishments mean nothing becayuse she is a woman. What sexism? Part 3 coming later.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:07
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The only reason we can't automate a lot of things that humans are doing right now is that computers are loving stupid. They're way better at crunching numbers and doing math but there isn't enough processing power to completely replicate an actual brain. "beep boop dispensing 20 IUs of comfort." As good as computers get, until they get a positronic brain or some equivalent, they will always always be poo poo at subjective judgement calls.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:44
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We don't know what we're missing from true AI yet, given how ludicrously complex our brains are it's entirely possible what we're missing is enough complexity, or the right complexity. Even so there are still many things computers are better at doing than humans but only if they're programmed correctly. To use that overdose article mentioned earlier the system should have been programmed to, at least once, at some point flag that dosage as being unusual. People should also not have blindly trusted the system and double checked the abnormal number, but 'we figured it would annoy doctors to have to flag unusual dosages' is not a good enough reason to not program in any kind of safeguard. e: I also feel compelled to point out that 'We installed a new system that nobody knows how to use and they hosed it up' is not the system's fault.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:48
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Fulchrum posted:
Anyone remember that loving terrible cartoon about transgenders in bathrooms from a couple pages ago?
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Apr 25, 2015 13:21
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But if transgendered persons are living as their identified gender, shouldn't they be happy? What could possibly drive them to suicide? Must be that transgendered people are just psycho and need therapy to set them straight.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:48
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Fulchrum posted:
I'm so numb to this now, that my big takeaway is that I think David Burge has a new Twitter Handle. Didn't it used to be just @iowahawk?
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Apr 25, 2015 14:10
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Neruz posted:To use that overdose article mentioned earlier the system should have been programmed to, at least once, at some point flag that dosage as being unusual. It did. The warning was ignored because the system gives too many alerts, almost all of them insignificant or false. quote:After Lucca signed the order an alert fired, warning her that this was an overdose...Like many other physicians, pharmacists, and nurses, Jenny Lucca found alerts to be a constant nuisance. Even giving Tylenol to a feverish child every four hours triggered an alert that the dose was approaching the maximum allowed. Every training program has a “hidden curriculum” (the way things are actually done around here, as opposed to what the policies say or what the administrators told you during that interminable orientation). One of them — passed down from senior residents to the newbies — was, “Ignore all the alerts.” VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 14:15
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Fulchrum posted:Anyway, part 2.  quote:Man, after all the Hillary ones I almost forgot Obama was a Muslim. 
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Apr 25, 2015 15:23
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Man, what the hell did trains people do to conservatives that they get all this bullshit? AFAIK the bible doesn't even have a passage that could be manipulated to make it seem like it says they're doing something wrong.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:07
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Coffee And Pie posted:Man, what the hell did trains people do to conservatives that they get all this bullshit? AFAIK the bible doesn't even have a passage that could be manipulated to make it seem like it says they're doing something wrong. You'd be surprised at how much stupid poo poo really chaps Jehovah's rear end Deuteronomy 22:5 posted:A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:10
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Coffee And Pie posted:Man, what the hell did trains people do to conservatives that they get all this bullshit? AFAIK the bible doesn't even have a passage that could be manipulated to make it seem like it says they're doing something wrong. They are icky and one time I think a transwoman tried to hit on me and I don't play around with no Oscar Meyer Wiener just like that song.  e: vvv More seriously this. Discussing transgender issues raises sometimes difficult questions about social norms and gender roles and sexuality definitions that can be uncomfortable for people to discuss. Some people aren't interested in looking at it beyond defining gender by body part whatever argument is raised. vvv Mo_Steel fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 16:10
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People in many cultures, particularly European ones, have taken gender norms VERY seriously for thousands of years. In the public eye trans people are like gay +1 even if a trans woman might be a lesbian for example, that stuff is usually overlooked.
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Apr 25, 2015 16:11
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