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I really would be interested in seeing the figures for this. I find it really hard to imagine Beth or Valve making enough money from this to even notice it as a big company, especially if you include the costs of setting up all the payments. But then what do I know
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Apr 25, 2015 17:39
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NadaTooma posted:"Paid mod" is just a fancy way to say "third-party DLC with no formal testing". Getting profits from free labour. Late-stage capitalism owns. 
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Apr 25, 2015 17:46
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Charlie Mopps posted:Getting profits from free labour. Late-stage capitalism owns. You joke, but some people really do think this.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:48
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sword_man.gif posted:yo valve was straight-up looking at skimming a hell of a lot of money for zero work or effort on their parts. so was bethesda. zero percent of this decision was to benefit the modders, and only does because they knew they couldn't get away with taking 100% Whoever came up with the idea to advertise this as a "great new way to support your favorite modders" was quite a creative thinker!
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Apr 25, 2015 17:48
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Buzzwords out the rear end methinks.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:52
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Praetorian Mage posted:Someone brought up that justification in the other thread, and I think it's bullshit. It reminds me of people who bitch about things like government employees getting good benefits, and their response to that is to say "Why should they get benefits when we don't? Take them away!" They call for them to be knocked down, when they should be clamoring for everyone else to be lifted up. Well, the other thread is where I saw it, yeah. The argument as presented was especially hosed because it was basically, "If you're mad at this, then you must not know how content delivery works everywhere else," except this absolutely does not follow since there's no guarantee that upon learning that this is how it works elsewhere, you will change your mind. Chances are if you think it's a raw deal here, you'll think it's a raw deal wherever you see if in operation.
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Apr 25, 2015 17:54
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Scyantific posted:Buzzwords out the rear end methinks. shut up and leverage those grassroots synergies
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Apr 25, 2015 17:55
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GunnerJ posted:Well, the other thread is where I saw it, yeah. The argument as presented was especially hosed because it was basically, "If you're mad at this, then you must not know how content delivery works everywhere else," except this absolutely does not follow since there's no guarantee that upon learning that this is how it works elsewhere, you will change your mind. Chances are if you think it's a raw deal here, you'll think it's a raw deal wherever you see if in operation. Exactly. When I saw that argument, I thought "Wow, those other people are getting royally hosed and someone should help them" rather than "Well, I guess creative people getting hosed in the rear end is normal and right".
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Apr 25, 2015 17:57
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Kimsemus posted:People are actually willing to pay for mods? Y'know, if there were both a guarantee of quality and compatibility, I would absolutely pay for mods, and I'm positive other people would too. As in: if Bethesda and Steam somehow paired up and made a game and download system that could figure out quality, load-order, and compatibility so that the only thing I had to do was decide whether or not I wanted a mod and to buy or not buy it and install it and it worked? That would seriously be worth money. The tens of hours I've spent getting mods to play nice are something I'd trade for money. But no. Instead, we get the same shitfest, but with a price tag attached. And that's only the "entitled gamer" objection, nevermind the myriad inherent problems this system has, not to mention how exploitative it is of content creators.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:14
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Mr Scumbag posted:Y'know, if there were both a guarantee of quality and compatibility, I would absolutely pay for mods, and I'm positive other people would too. As in: if Bethesda and Steam somehow paired up and made a game and download system that could figure out quality, load-order, and compatibility so that the only thing I had to do was decide whether or not I wanted a mod and to buy or not buy it and install it and it worked? That would seriously be worth money. The tens of hours I've spent getting mods to play nice are something I'd trade for money. 
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Apr 25, 2015 18:20
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Mr Scumbag posted:Y'know, if there were both a guarantee of quality and compatibility, I would absolutely pay for mods, and I'm positive other people would too. As in: if Bethesda and Steam somehow paired up and made a game and download system that could figure out quality, load-order, and compatibility so that the only thing I had to do was decide whether or not I wanted a mod and to buy or not buy it and install it and it worked? That would seriously be worth money. The tens of hours I've spent getting mods to play nice are something I'd trade for money. This.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:26
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The labor cost of mod making is way more than the value of the end result, in my opinion. To me, a perk overhaul like SPERG or PerMa might be worth $5 , a new land mod with a ton of new assets and a substantial increase in play time might be worth $10. Falskaar gets held up as an example of this, but that mod wasn't very good, but people were so hung up on how much effort went into it. Armor and weapons might be worth pennies. These things take a lot of time, effort, and knowledge to make, but just because a thing is worth something doesn't mean it's worth paying for. This is why I think donations make sense, but from what I can tell few people donate so it's an effectively worthless system. If games cost $200+ on their own some of these prices might make sense. Those modders who were contacted directly should have asked for job interviews instead of a meager cut from the profit of their work. Their work is awesome and Bethesda should take serious notice. Alasyre fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 18:34
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Canemacar posted:Am I just blind, or has Valve removed the review stats from the Skyrim page? I remember watching it nosedive yesterday from about 98% to 95% over the course of a couple hours, but now I don't see it. It hasn't been removed, it's down to 93%. You have to hover over the rating. e:f;b Cup Runneth Over fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 18:34
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Another issue I just thought about was feature creep. There was a mod on nexus that added a bunch of inconsequential npcs into the game to make it more livelier. At some point the modder decided to make it so that anyone playing an Argonian or Kahjiit character would not be able to enter Windhelm without passing a fairly high persuasion check. He did this for "lore" reasons. When people spoke up he said it was his decision and he was keeping it that way because in the lore of the game Argonians and Khajiit are discriminated against. Never mind the fact that it pretty much broke game progression by locking you out of a key town. Now imagine buying that mod when it was first released and then a month from now this happens. You can't get a refund as the 24 hour window has passed and you have no recourse to get your money back. You could ask the modder to change it, as per Valve's suggestion, but in this case it wouldn't help as the modder is steadfast in keeping in feature creep elements. This is really common. Another mod that added in bandit groups was HUGELY popular but had so much feature creep that most people recommend others to avoid it now. There was even an issue where a very popular combat overhaul mod with hundreds of thousands of downloads was discovered by a goon to have done absolutely nothing that it stated it did. It was just a few tweaks and more than half of the things the mod said it did did nothing. It took over a year for people to discover that.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:37
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Red Mundus posted:Another issue I just thought about was feature creep. There was a mod on nexus that added a bunch of inconsequential npcs into the game to make it more livelier. At some point the modder decided to make it so that anyone playing an Argonian or Kahjiit character would not be able to enter Windhelm without passing a fairly high persuasion check. He did this for "lore" reasons. When people spoke up he said it was his decision and he was keeping it that way because in the lore of the game Argonians and Khajiit are discriminated against. Never mind the fact that it pretty much broke game progression by locking you out of a key town. And on top of all that, you paid for a mod!
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Apr 25, 2015 18:41
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Red Mundus posted:Another issue I just thought about was feature creep. There was a mod on nexus that added a bunch of inconsequential npcs into the game to make it more livelier. At some point the modder decided to make it so that anyone playing an Argonian or Kahjiit character would not be able to enter Windhelm without passing a fairly high persuasion check. He did this for "lore" reasons. When people spoke up he said it was his decision and he was keeping it that way because in the lore of the game Argonians and Khajiit are discriminated against. Never mind the fact that it pretty much broke game progression by locking you out of a key town. Well if you spend just 15 measly dollars a month on mod insurance...
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Apr 25, 2015 18:42
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Red Mundus posted:There was even an issue where a very popular combat overhaul mod with hundreds of thousands of downloads was discovered by a goon to have done absolutely nothing that it stated it did. It was just a few tweaks and more than half of the things the mod said it did did nothing. It took over a year for people to discover that. This raises an interesting point. If they were to do this and also sell their mod, they would be committing fraud (As I understand it. Which would be a huge loving legal hailstorm for the content creator. In the case of the AI mod, he wouldn't just be able to vanish with it. He would be liable to pay damages. Hey, maybe this isn't such a bad idea...
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Apr 25, 2015 18:43
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Squeegy posted:And on top of all that, you paid for a mod! I still can't believe people are trying to defend this absolutely garbage system. There are so many detriments and pretty much no benefit except being paid 25 cents for every dollar made.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:44
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projecthalaxy posted:Well if you spend just 15 measly dollars a month on mod insurance... I think you mean 3,000 Bells.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:47
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Yeah, paying for a mod is mindbogglingly stupid as hell. I was just brain-storming more unique ways clueless consumers can get hosed over that aren't as apparent as "paying for mod".
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Apr 25, 2015 18:48
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Red Mundus posted:Another issue I just thought about was feature creep. There was a mod on nexus that added a bunch of inconsequential npcs into the game to make it more livelier. At some point the modder decided to make it so that anyone playing an Argonian or Kahjiit character would not be able to enter Windhelm without passing a fairly high persuasion check. He did this for "lore" reasons. When people spoke up he said it was his decision and he was keeping it that way because in the lore of the game Argonians and Khajiit are discriminated against. Never mind the fact that it pretty much broke game progression by locking you out of a key town. This boils down to "there is no quality control, so there is no reason for me to take a risk on paying for this" which is one of several big mental barriers to buying a mod for me. On the other hand, I have been thinking for a while that all these ~*~my artistic vision~*~ prima donnas aren't going to survive the transition from great creative genius benefactor with dependent clients to vender of a product with paying customers. When someone hands you cash you don't get to brush them off as lousy ingrates when they complain and threaten to take your ball home. So, silver lining?
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Apr 25, 2015 18:48
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iGestalt posted:This raises an interesting point. If they were to do this and also sell their mod, they would be committing fraud (As I understand it. Which would be a huge loving legal hailstorm for the content creator. No one would ever be able to prove in court it was fraud, though, because you'd have to prove it to a judge or jury that doesn't know and doesn't give a drat how video games and mods work, with a lawyer on the other side who will actively thwart you from explaining it to them.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:49
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Red Mundus posted:There was even an issue where a very popular combat overhaul mod with hundreds of thousands of downloads was discovered by a goon to have done absolutely nothing that it stated it did. It was just a few tweaks and more than half of the things the mod said it did did nothing. It took over a year for people to discover that. What was the mod called? This sounds great.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:No one would ever be able to prove in court it was fraud, though, because you'd have to prove it to a judge or jury that doesn't know and doesn't give a drat how video games and mods work, with a lawyer on the other side who will actively thwart you from explaining it to them. In England, we have new Consumer Rights (2015) that directly cover digital content. That kind of poo poo would fall right under it and be Fraud, as I've understood it (or if not that extreme, be serious grounds for full refunds) This is part of the whole legal shitstorm, in that Valve are selling worldwide. Gotta abide by all local trade laws!
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Apr 25, 2015 18:50
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iGestalt posted:In England, we have new Consumer Rights (2015) that directly cover digital content. That kind of poo poo would fall right under it and be Fraud, as I've understood it (or if not that extreme, be serious grounds for full refunds) Speaking of European laws, I'm pretty sure that Valve's policy of only giving refunds in Steam bucks for mods is illegal in Europe, to add on top of everything else.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:51
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Eric the Mauve posted:No one would ever be able to prove in court it was fraud, though, because you'd have to prove it to a judge or jury that doesn't know and doesn't give a drat how video games and mods work, with a lawyer on the other side who will actively thwart you from explaining it to them. Hiring expert witnesses in the Gamebryo engine to prove to a judge/jury that a video game mod does not function as advertised. Oh brave new world that has such wonders in it, or whatever.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:51
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Sillybones posted:What was the mod called? This sounds great. Wasn't that mod called Duel - Combat Realism or something like that?
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Apr 25, 2015 18:53
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Yes. To elaborate: https://sites.google.com/site/grimyskyrim/mod-critiques/duel
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Apr 25, 2015 18:54
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Pirating paid mods might work fine for Skyrim since it was designed for independent mod files. TES 6 will have its mod interface built directly with Steam Workshop in mind, and adding in outside/torrented mods won't even work. Calling it now.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:55
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Pakled posted:Speaking of European laws, I'm pretty sure that Valve's policy of only giving refunds in Steam bucks for mods is illegal in Europe, to add on top of everything else. It is, yes. Unless you paid for it in SteamBux. If you paid via Debit/Bank/Postage Check/Sink then they have to refund it in that manner. Just gotta push for it via steam support because god forbid they willingly abide by local and union laws.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:56
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iGestalt posted:This raises an interesting point. If they were to do this and also sell their mod, they would be committing fraud (As I understand it. Which would be a huge loving legal hailstorm for the content creator. It would be cool if modders suddenly delivered professional products with real testing to make sure they wouldn't gently caress up your game and were worth the price you paid for them. But here's one of the debut mods, the neat-looking armor that showed up in Valve's announcement.  It costs two dollars, for a mod that adds one armor set. This armor cannot be obtained without doing a player.additem in the console, comes as a single armor piece, does not have a custom menu model (hence why it's covering up the menu text), does not have the weight models that let equipment adjust to your characters' body sliders (there's a picture circulating where a character's rear end just ends up sticking out the back), is riddled with weight/rigging issues... there's no need to discuss hypothetical scenarios where modders end up churning out crap mods for quick bucks. This is happening Day One, with one of the mods specifically chosen to introduce the system to the community. This is a hilariously ill-thought-out clusterfuck.
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Apr 25, 2015 18:57
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Cantorsdust posted:Pirating paid mods might work fine for Skyrim since it was designed for independent mod files. TES 6 will have its mod interface built directly with Steam Workshop in mind, and adding in outside/torrented mods won't even work. Calling it now. Congratulations on correctly predicting this morning's sunrise
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Apr 25, 2015 18:57
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Cantorsdust posted:Pirating paid mods might work fine for Skyrim since it was designed for independent mod files. TES 6 will have its mod interface built directly with Steam Workshop in mind, and adding in outside/torrented mods won't even work. Calling it now. Someone will crack it wide open. Of that, I have no doubt.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:01
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EgoEgress posted:It costs two dollars, for a mod that adds one armor set. This armor cannot be obtained without doing a player.additem in the console, comes as a single armor piece, does not have a custom menu model (hence why it's covering up the menu text), does not have the weight models that let equipment adjust to your characters' body sliders (there's a picture circulating where a character's rear end just ends up sticking out the back), is riddled with weight/rigging issues... To further add to this many, many, many modders do make make armors or helmets race compatible. Which means races with unique morphology or facial features cannot use certain armors or helmets. These races include, Kahjiit, Orc, and Argonian. Some of the biggest armor mods out there including Immersive armor contains items that cannot be worn by other races other than humanoid. Also custom races? Good luck. you basically have a 50/50 chance of modded armor working on custom races and even then it doesn't always work right.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:03
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iGestalt posted:It is, yes. Unless you paid for it in SteamBux. If you paid via Debit/Bank/Postage Check/Sink then they have to refund it in that manner. Just gotta push for it via steam support because god forbid they willingly abide by local and union laws. Calling it now, next scummy Valve move will be that ALL purchases must be in  funbux.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:03
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Cantorsdust posted:Pirating paid mods might work fine for Skyrim since it was designed for independent mod files. TES 6 will have its mod interface built directly with Steam Workshop in mind, and adding in outside/torrented mods won't even work. Calling it now. Well, then I won't buy any games that do this. Bethesda games are pretty much poo poo without mods.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:04
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Scyantific posted:Calling it now, next scummy Valve move will be that ALL purchases must be in That'd be pretty hilarious - I wonder if they'd be able to get away with that in the EU?
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Apr 25, 2015 19:09
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Red Mundus posted:Now imagine buying that mod when it was first released and then a month from now this happens. You can't get a refund as the 24 hour window has passed and you have no recourse to get your money back. You could ask the modder to change it, as per Valve's suggestion, but in this case it wouldn't help as the modder is steadfast in keeping in feature creep elements. I'm not sure that would actually happen in practice though, considering some of the people who are involved. And the people left with a mod that now has features they dislike still paid money. PLUS with Valve's restriction that you can't add mods that require a paid mod, that means that Gate Remover would actually be against the rules. The final victory for arthmoor! It kinda drives home that most mods are perpetually WIP, you're buying early access on everything. And I also think about how most mods are passion projects that someone starts because they want the game to be just so. If I'm paying for a mod, I'd have much more reservations about the mod fitting what I like.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:10
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GunnerJ posted:This boils down to "there is no quality control, so there is no reason for me to take a risk on paying for this" which is one of several big mental barriers to buying a mod for me. I'm sure I'm reiterating a point that's been made before, but the problem really isn't with Skyrim. There might actually be some high quality poo poo being put out if they fix the exorbitant modder/publisher share. The next TES game is going to be a weird rear end mess if the paid mods are still implemented, because there was a lot of collaborative discovery that went on in the early days of Skyrim modding. For all the poo poo modders get for being special little prima donna snowflakes with their big ugly oblivion gates, the community really does tend to work together quite well because they all want to create cool poo poo and there's no incentive to keep things to yourself since you get e-cred for being a part of figuring things out. There's also been a push for getting some sort of standards set up so your mod isn't just making GBS threads all over the place with dirty edits and conflicts waiting to happen. Who's going to make the script extender for the next TES game? Who's going to be doing stuff like just making modder's resources and throwing them out there onto the Nexus? Where do you even begin with the legal issues involved with "This guy released a huge rear end mod that requires a Javascript thing to edit a bunch of poo poo and because its super popular it had a huge install base and hosed up my mod and now all my customers are angry and giving me 1 star reviews" A lot of stuff that was just bitchy backbiting might actually turn into loving civil lawsuits given how petty some of these guys can be, and you can just kiss any spirit of communal modding goodbye for the next iteration. I really really hope they kill this dumbass poorly thought out pilot well before the next TES game launches, or they're probably going to kill off one of the longest-lived, productive, and creative modding scene in PC gaming for a month or two's worth of horse armor.
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Apr 25, 2015 19:12
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Mr Scumbag posted:Y'know, if there were both a guarantee of quality and compatibility, I would absolutely pay for mods, and I'm positive other people would too. As in: if Bethesda and Steam somehow paired up and made a game and download system that could figure out quality, load-order, and compatibility so that the only thing I had to do was decide whether or not I wanted a mod and to buy or not buy it and install it and it worked? That would seriously be worth money. The tens of hours I've spent getting mods to play nice are something I'd trade for money. Great post, Mr Scumbag
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