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Blaze Dragon posted:I think part of why Goku comes across as heroic despite his serious enjoyment of battle and somewhat stupid/unkind/selfish moments is because Dragon Ball as a whole is very optimistic. Gon from Hunter x Hunter is literally "what if Kid Goku was in a far more cynical world", and he has moments where he comes across as outright creepy despite being more or less the same character. Hell, even his Super Saiyan transformation is shown in a far, far less nice light than Goku's insanely heroic, if revenge-driven, first transformation. And this is counting how Super Saiyan Goku was far less nice than normal Goku. I have more respect for a writer who is willing to kill a character only to find some way of bringing them back than a writer who goes out of his way to avoid killing characters even when it makes sense to do so.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:05
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Hell, Cell even does it.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:05
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Xibanya posted:You've been sitting on that comeback for almost a hundred pages now. Nice. Sounds like he fed you a lie and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker, fwiw.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:07
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Genocyber posted:Sounds like he fed you a lie and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker, fwiw. You missed the sarcasm.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:19
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The Something Awful Forums > General Bullshit > E/N Bullshit › My pig boyfriend has a collection of women's panties
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Apr 30, 2015 19:22
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Prison Warden posted:This exact thing gets him killed in the Android saga. Bulma wants to just track down Gero's lab and nuke it from orbit as soon as but nope. That's not even the most ridiculous thing he does. Remember Goku giving Cell a senzu bean after his fight? That was seriously unsettling even as a kid, and the entire idea of Goku as a hotblooded idiot, who is only coincidentally a nice guy, is a really cool design that you can pick up pieces of throughout the entire series. Whis chiding him for being such a cocky moron is great. Blaze Dragon posted:Goku not being particularly heroic is brought up quite a bit in different media, which I always found interesting because he's clearly got some serious hero moments even in Toriyama-written things (Battle of Gods' "I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WOOOORRRRLLLLDDD!!!", for instance (that line was awesomely shouted)). Budokai 3, I think, at the end of Goku's story mode outright says that Goku's motives for taking Uub are selfish, he just wants stronger and stronger people to fight. Battle of Gods has Roshi outright question Goku's purity of heart considering how much of a love for fighting he has (this was changed in the dub to just questioning Goku's intelligence, which is lame) It was't until I started reading DB again that I realized how much of a total Goku ripoff Gon is. Which makes it amazing to go read DB and pick out the things in Goku that make Gon unsettling. I also like that Ging has Goku's parenting style and it's such an insanely hosed up way to treat your child that almost everyone in the series hates him for it and thinks he's a total moron. Thunderbro fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 19:26
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Toriyama establishes very early on the karmic rules of his world in stories like the one where Roshi forces Goku and Krillin to race to get him the rock he threw. The winner gets dinner and the loser goes hungry. Krillin cheats to win but as it turns out dinner was improperly cleaned fugu fish that makes everyone who ate dinner sick so Goku wins out anyway. The fact that people like Roshi exist (that there's "adult content") shows that this world wasn't built out of Toriyama's naïveté but rather because that's what he deliberately wants to portray. Goku giving Cell a senzu was a pretty shocking scene for me too when I saw it for the first time, but it is totally in keeping with Toriyama's proclaimed view of the character. Dang that arc is the loving best. I think a lot of non-Toriyama DBZ media get Goku's character wrong on precisely this thing.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:40
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Thunderbro posted:It was't until I started reading DB again that I realized how much of a total Goku ripoff Gon is. Which makes it amazing to go read DB and pick out the things in Goku that make Gon unsettling. I also like that Ging has Goku's parenting style and it's such an insanely hosed up way to treat your child that almost everyone in the series hates him for it and thinks he's a total moron. I don't really see the Ging and Goku comparison aside from them both being bad parents. If anything it's kinda the opposite; Goku pushes too much on Gohan (to be a fighter), whereas Ging was never there for Gon. Ging is more like how Yusuke Urameshi would be if he didn't mature. I do the Goku and Gon comparison, though, given that they're both extremely innocent and thus come off as being really amoral.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:44
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Goku is also the kind of person that forgets that everyone doesn't play by the same rules as him. You see it on a small scale in real life, where people who are naturally good, give other people way too much credit, even when they give untrustworthy signs, and end up getting screwed over because of that. There's a kind of personality type that can't help but assume that in the end, everyone will basically do the right thing and everything will turn out okay. In Goku's case, this is hugely vindicated, because he's generally correct about people. Yamcha, Chauzu, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Mr. Buu were all killers and assholes before turning around or showing that they were good or at least okay deep inside. His other shady friends like Krillen and Yaijorobee are good when the chips are down. Really the only time he's ever been wrong is with Freeza, and in judging that his own son is just like him inside due to training with him for years straight and seeing him strictly in fighting ability terms.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:49
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Thunderbro posted:It was't until I started reading DB again that I realized how much of a total Goku ripoff Gon is. Which makes it amazing to go read DB and pick out the things in Goku that make Gon unsettling. I also like that Ging has Goku's parenting style and it's such an insanely hosed up way to treat your child that almost everyone in the series hates him for it and thinks he's a total moron. Gon is an intentional commentary on Goku (or rather Goku-style characters). That's kind of the point of the character. HxH intentionally takes shonen tropes and takes them to a logical conclusion they wouldn't get otherwise.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:51
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ImpAtom posted:Gon is an intentional commentary on Goku (or rather Goku-style characters). That's kind of the point of the character. HxH intentionally takes shonen tropes and takes them to a logical conclusion they wouldn't get otherwise.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:29
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The most overpowered Fullbringer ability.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:31
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Bad Seafood posted:My favorite thing Hunter x Hunter has done in this vein is Chrollo's power, being able to steal people's abilities if they explain to him how they work. The Chimera Ant arc would've been so much faster if he had been there.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:33
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Momomo posted:The Chimera Ant arc would've been so much faster if he had been there. And the end of part 5 of JoJo would be the exact same as it was anyway.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:40
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Bad Seafood posted:My favorite thing Hunter x Hunter has done in this vein is Chrollo's power, being able to steal people's abilities if they explain to him how they work. There is also the Bomber whose bombs wont set unless he explains what his powers are.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:51
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The Lion Chimera gets access to your power if he does you a favor.
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Apr 30, 2015 21:06
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ImpAtom posted:Gon is an intentional commentary on Goku (or rather Goku-style characters). That's kind of the point of the character. HxH intentionally takes shonen tropes and takes them to a logical conclusion they wouldn't get otherwise. So HxH is the Madoka Magica of shonen. 'kay.
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Apr 30, 2015 21:10
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Hunter X Hunter feels like a love letter to a lot of various Shonen but especially Dragonball. Only the author decided to make everything a lotttt darker. It's really good too once you get into it Also if you have no intentions of watching Hunter X Hunter then you should AT LEAST still watch this fight, which is probably the craziest fight in the new show and well worth watching. It's long but good. You dont really need to know anything except that these characters might be the two most powerful guys we've seen in the show so far https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcsWpwoNL8I
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Apr 30, 2015 22:30
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Mordaedil posted:So HxH is the Madoka Magica of shonen. 'kay. I wouldn't really say that, no. It's still telling an unironic shonen story, just without feeling the need to restrain itself to what the genre usually does and sometimes pokes fun at the direction other shows went. The creator is the same guy who did things like Level E and Yu Yu Hakusho. He's basically one of the tops of the craft. (Despite HxH's ridiculous release schedule.)
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Apr 30, 2015 22:37
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It also has TERRIBLE art at random intervals.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:43
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Zzulu posted:Hunter X Hunter feels like a love letter to a lot of various Shonen but especially Dragonball. Only the author decided to make everything a lotttt darker. It's really good too once you get into it It also shows at the end that the villain never could have won no matter what.
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Apr 30, 2015 23:14
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Has a release date for the dub of Revival F been announced yet?
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May 1, 2015 00:32
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-Fish- posted:Has a release date for the dub of Revival F been announced yet? I think it was August
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May 1, 2015 00:51
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Bad Seafood posted:My favorite thing Hunter x Hunter has done in this vein is Chrollo's power, being able to steal people's abilities if they explain to him how they work. I guess I should finally check out Hunter x Hunter
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May 1, 2015 01:23
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Kild posted:I think it was August Hope we don't have to wait that long for the Revival of F DLC for Xenoverse.
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May 1, 2015 01:24
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I'm happy with gt being xenoverse canon
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May 1, 2015 01:39
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Amorphous Blob posted:It also has TERRIBLE art at random intervals. Wait, was that poo poo actually let into the magazine itself? Like, it's one thing if a panel isn't up to your usual quality. That's to be expected. But that is just...bad. Also, on a reread, it's really obvious that Toriyama was running out of ways to make training interesting. Like, early on, large parts of the story are devoted to training and they all are done in sort of novel, "mr. Miyagi" ways. Then, around Z time, it really just falls to the wayside and your mostly just left to imagine them training. Like, it's mentioned they are, but it's never the focus of the story.
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May 1, 2015 01:56
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You guys can't tempt me into starting Hunter x Hunter. I've been burned too many times - I will only start reading a manga if it's already finished. I only found out somewhat recently that Hellsing had ended since I gave up on it about 8 years ago (ironically it ended a little over a year after I threw up my hands. Whoops.)
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May 1, 2015 02:30
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Covok, you underestimate how much goddamn power the author of H x H has. Crying out loud he's married to the creator of Sailor Moon. They basically print money. Dude took so many hiatuses because of illnesses and I believe those panels he drew where when he was sick.
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May 1, 2015 02:34
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Something I noticed since I'm only now picking up the 3-volume packs of Dragon Ball is that a lot of the characters end up following Goku's exact training career with no deviation, just always one step behind. Goku and Krillin train under Roshi, so we're kinda at parity. Yamcha sucks. Goku trains with Korin during Red Ribbon Army, Yamcha trains with Roshi, Krillin also sticks with Roshi. After the Baba tournament, Goku spends the next few years running around the world by himself. Demon King Piccolo has Goku drinking the Super Spirit Water, and then afterwards training with Kami/Mr. Popo. Krillin/Yamcha/Tien/Chaozu run around the world by themselves and at some point at least Krillin and Yamcha train with Korin. Z happens, and Goku trains with King Kai after dying. The rest train with Kami/Mr. Popo. En route to Namek, Goku trains in 100G, the rest train with King Kai. Goku is on Yardrat and goes into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and, well... After that the 2nd string pretty much falls off, with slight exceptions in Vegeta (who then trains in increased gravity, the hyperbolic time chamber, and gets the Majin boost), Gohan (trains in time chamber, goes Mystic and does nothing), and Piccolo Jr. (who trains Gohan alone and end up still being stronger than the rest who trained with Kami, and then skips the gravity training and King Kai's training to fuse with other Namekians, which is how he mostly keeps up). I don't know why I bothered to type this up really other than once I realized it I was pretty amused. Unless I'm forgetting something too, the bit where most of them run around the world by themselves ends up with them learning new abilities (Krillin learns to fly, Tien has the multi-form and eye lasers, Yamcha learns the Spirit Ball or whatever). When it comes down to it though I'm sure not much thought was put into it besides "okay, so, remember how strong goku was after he trained doing X? okay well now these guys are all that strong because they did the same thing!" Xibanya posted:You guys can't tempt me into starting Hunter x Hunter. I've been burned too many times - I will only start reading a manga if it's already finished. I only found out somewhat recently that Hellsing had ended since I gave up on it about 8 years ago (ironically it ended a little over a year after I threw up my hands. Whoops.) For what it's worth you can consider Hunter x Hunter finished- although Togashi started a new arc that is currently unfinished and who knows if we'll ever see the end of it, the end of the previous arc can very well be considered the end of the series due to its resolutions.
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May 1, 2015 02:35
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Shindragon posted:Covok, you underestimate how much goddamn power the author of H x H has. Crying out loud he's married to the creator of Sailor Moon. They basically print money. Dude took so many hiatuses because of illnesses and I believe those panels he drew where when he was sick. Really? The guy who made Yu Yu Hakasho married the woman who made Sailor Moon? Also, I didn't know he was sick. I don't really look into the lives of comic authors. Honestly, all of this thread's talk about Toriyama is more than I've ever learned about a comic author, honestly.
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May 1, 2015 02:42
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Ah I see, but yeah they got married around 1999 if I recall but yeah, Togashi is really talented. Like there are few chapters where it's scribbles and yeah they are bad, but when he isn't sick his stuff shines. WISH he didn't went to so many hiatuses though. I'm wonder what will finish first. Berserk or HXH?  Also regarding Goku giving Cell a Senzu is why I"m so waiting for TFS take on it. They are already building how bad of a father he is. I mean dubbed Piccolo ripped Goku a new one. TFS Piccolo is probably gonna be even better. Shindragon fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 02:44
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Shindragon posted:Covok, you underestimate how much goddamn power the author of H x H has. Crying out loud he's married to the creator of Sailor Moon. They basically print money. Dude took so many hiatuses because of illnesses and I believe those panels he drew where when he was sick. Wait, seriously? That explains so much. I was wondering how HxH could not get canceled despite everything.
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May 1, 2015 03:08
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Zzulu posted:You dont really need to know anything except that these characters might be the two most powerful guys we've seen in the show so far The fantastic thing about HxH is that we don't actually know this is true. HxH does power creep fantastically. The protagonists consistently get stronger, but never falls into the DBZ trap of "beat the strongest guy in the universe, stronger strongest guy in the universe then has to show up, rinse and repeat". There are a whole bunch of super powerful characters who the protagonists interact with, but we don't actually know how they all compare to one another. It's also helped by a power system that has a bunch of unique powers that make direct "power comparisons" kind of pointless.
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May 1, 2015 03:09
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Shindragon posted:Ah I see, but yeah they got married around 1999 if I recall but yeah, Togashi is really talented. Like there are few chapters where it's scribbles and yeah they are bad, but when he isn't sick his stuff shines. the closest thing you can give to an excuse for what Goku did is 1. he's an idiot(even more so in Abridged), and 2. more so than any other Saiyan in the franchise besides maybe Broly, Goku is deeply in touch with his Saiyan instincts for fighting in spite of him being almost completely unaware of Saiyan culture outside of whatever tidbits Vegeta's probably shared over the years, which makes him act very impulsive and dumb when it comes to stuff involving fighting
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May 1, 2015 03:19
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I hope they completely change the scene and they animate Picollo grabbing the bean out of the air and yelling at Goku. Either that or they directly copy his rant verbatim
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May 1, 2015 03:30
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Shakugan posted:The fantastic thing about HxH is that we don't actually know this is true. HxH does power creep fantastically. The protagonists consistently get stronger, but never falls into the DBZ trap of "beat the strongest guy in the universe, stronger strongest guy in the universe then has to show up, rinse and repeat". There are a whole bunch of super powerful characters who the protagonists interact with, but we don't actually know how they all compare to one another. It's also helped by a power system that has a bunch of unique powers that make direct "power comparisons" kind of pointless. For people who want to get into Hunter x Hunter but hate the idea of the manga being on eternal hiatus, the anime is actually a pretty solid recommendation since it wraps up in what feels like a natural place even if there's tons of story left.
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May 1, 2015 03:36
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Eight-Six posted:Words about people following Goku. Yeah and, especially in Dragon Ball, it kinda shows how big the divide becomes between Goku and everyone else. By the time the 23rd TB comes around, there's barely even a pretense that the others come close to Goku. Ok Tien, you were out in the woods for a few years? Goku was training with God. Sure their fight was at least somewhat intense due to narrative drama but Goku was just loving with 'em
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May 1, 2015 04:25
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Toriyama should have killed off Tien in the King Piccolo saga, dude literally doesn't do a drat thing after that.
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May 1, 2015 04:27
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facebook jihad posted:Toriyama should have killed off Tien in the King Piccolo saga, dude literally doesn't do a drat thing after that. He held off Cell once, and I seem to recall him saving Gohan from Buutenks at some point. Tien has some good moments.
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May 1, 2015 04:29
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