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Also I'd like to point out that Tom of Finland, Touko Laaksonen by his real name, is my relative through my mother's side and we have several of his works at my mom's house. Finland even went to make his stamps a part of a stamp collection: http://www.posti.fi/english/current/2014/20140413_stamps.html
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May 1, 2015 18:23
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:drat, all BPD officers charged. I didn't see that coming. If they did nothing wrong then they have nothing to worry about.
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May 1, 2015 18:29
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Volume posted:If they did nothing wrong then they have nothing to worry about. If they did nothing wrong then they shouldn't have been charged.
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May 1, 2015 18:59
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:If they did nothing wrong then they shouldn't have been charged. Do you seriously think they did nothing wrong?
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May 1, 2015 19:02
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Cole posted:Is it possible the decision to charge them was influenced by politics? Probably more influenced by the innocent dude they murdered.
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May 1, 2015 19:04
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:If they did nothing wrong then they shouldn't have been charged. so being charged means you're automatically guilty?
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May 1, 2015 19:06
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I think it's hard to not charge someone being that a dude can't really sever his own spine when he's cuffed in paddy wagon.
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May 1, 2015 19:13
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Untagged posted:It's Baltimore. Everything has to do with politics.
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May 1, 2015 19:23
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Volume posted:so being charged means you're automatically guilty? Being charged means there is probable cause to believe you did something illegal. If it is already known that you did nothing wrong, or there is not probable cause, then the person should not be charged. This does not suddenly change because public officials are the potential defendants. I am not surprised that the officers were charged in this case, but that charge needs to have been on the basis of the facts, not because of the feelings of the community. Community feelings matter in determining policies and fixes - they do not matter when charging people with crimes. Protestors can jump up and down and scream all they want, but the idea that protests should actually matter to the outcome of individual cases is extremely dangerous. No matter the faults of the justice system, mob justice is still not a better idea.
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May 1, 2015 19:28
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and the courts are there to judge if that probable cause is based in provable facts. So if the facts are on their side then it should be smooth sailing for them.
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May 1, 2015 19:34
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Volume posted:and the courts are there to judge if that probable cause is based in provable facts. So if the facts are on their side then it should be smooth sailing for them. Yes. People being charged are entitled to a probable cause hearing prior to trial to determine if probable cause exists. Often, this is waived, but not always. That does not mean that it is ok to charge people with crimes without probable cause. At a bare minimum, that's a waste of the court's time and money, and in severe cases can itself be a crime or cause of civil action.
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May 1, 2015 19:44
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Who's being charged with out probable cause here?
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May 1, 2015 19:46
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Kiryen posted:Yes. People being charged are entitled to a probable cause hearing prior to trial to determine if probable cause exists. Often, this is waived, but not always. Do you think probable cause does not exist in this case?
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May 1, 2015 19:46
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Mr. Nice! posted:I think it's hard to not charge someone being that a dude can't really sever his own spine when he's cuffed in paddy wagon. When I first heard about the case, my first thought was that the guy was probably in the back of the van in a bad position and he somehow broke his neck. An officer breaking someone's neck during a fight (or beating, depending on circumstance) didn't even occur to me. That reminds me: I've read in a few articles that the officers apparently breached policy by not seat belting the deceased into the van. Do they seriously have seatbelts in their vans? Do any of you? None of our transport vehicles have seat belts in the prisoner compartments and I've never seen another agency up here that has them either. The reasoning seems very self-evident. Is that just  ?
DrakeriderCa fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 19:49
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DrakeriderCa posted:That reminds me: I've read in a few articles that the officers apparently breached policy by not seat belting the deceased into the van. Do they seriously have seatbelts in their vans? Do any of you? We have seatbelts in our vans. DC police have a roller coaster style bar that comes down across the waists of the people in their vans, plus the seatbelt.
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May 1, 2015 19:53
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Whip Slagcheek posted:We have seatbelts in our vans. DC police have a roller coaster style bar that comes down across the waists of the people in their vans, plus the seatbelt.  And you've never had problems with strangulation? Or do the vans only have retracting lap belts? The roller coaster bar sounds awesome though.
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May 1, 2015 19:54
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Our wagons just have a bar behind the seat they have to hold on to.
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May 1, 2015 19:58
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DrakeriderCa posted:
How would they get strangled? Seriously I'm curious. We're not wrapping it around their neck, it's a regular retracting seatbelt. From my limited understanding the roller coaster bar is for when they can't safely put the seatbelt on (person is combative, whatever) so they have some restraint.
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May 1, 2015 19:58
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Cichlid the Loach posted:Do you think probable cause does not exist in this case? I don't know. I don't have access to all the facts. I am not making an evaluation of whether the charges are appropriate; I'm pointing out that the statement "IF they did nothing wrong THEN they should not be charged" is technically correct. The fact that if they did nothing wrong they are very likely to have nothing to worry about does not make it ok to charge them IF the charging authority already knows they did nothing wrong.
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May 1, 2015 20:00
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Kiryen posted:I don't know. I don't have access to all the facts. Then I think we can all take comfort in the fact that the attorney used the medical examiners report and the internal police investigation to assess if there was probable cause.
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May 1, 2015 20:03
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Kiryen posted:I'm pointing out that the statement "IF they did nothing wrong THEN they should not be charged" is technically correct. The fact that if they did nothing wrong they are very likely to have nothing to worry about does not make it ok to charge them IF the charging authority already knows they did nothing wrong. I think the person saying that was being sarcastic, turning around the common response that police and co. give to civilians voicing concerns of brutality, wrongful detentions, and other violations: "If you've done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear." Volume posted:Then I think we can all take comfort in the fact that the attorney used the medical examiners report and the internal police investigation to assess if there was probable cause. The charges must be invalid because the SA is clearly biased against those officers, as evidenced by the fact that she brought charges against them.
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May 1, 2015 20:06
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Volume posted:Then I think we can all take comfort in the fact that the attorney used the medical examiners report and the internal police investigation to assess if there was probable cause. I don't believe that is in dispute. quote:I think the person saying that was being sarcastic, turning around the common response that police and co. give to civilians voicing concerns of brutality, wrongful detentions, and other violations: "If you've done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear." When applied to the public as a whole, that's a defensible statement. If you are not doing anything wrong you are unlikely to interact with police. If applied to individual members of the public charged with crimes, then it's no more acceptable than when applied to the police, but in that sense it is not "common" at all.
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May 1, 2015 20:09
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Kiryen posted:I am not making an evaluation of whether the charges are appropriate; I'm pointing out that the statement "IF they did nothing wrong THEN they should not be charged" is technically correct. The fact that if they did nothing wrong they are very likely to have nothing to worry about does not make it ok to charge them IF the charging authority already knows they did nothing wrong. I think the disagreement comes from the disconnect between two interpretations of "they did nothing wrong". In the case where "they did nothing wrong" but there's evidence that suggests they did, it is right they are charged, and their innocence will hopefully be discovered at trial (obviously there is the belief in this statement that the trial will be fair and not find a guilty person innocent). This leads to the sentiment "If they did nothing wrong, they should have nothing to worry about" but doesn't support the claim "If they did nothing wrong then they shouldn't be charged". The other case is obviously "they did nothing wrong" and the prosecutors and judge knew it. Obviously, in that situation, they should not be charged. This is the situation where the statement would be technically correct, but contextually doesn't make a whole lot of sense - there's no evidence the prosecution was political, and all the evidence that has come out so far supports a good-faith argument of continuing cause to believe they committed the crime even if it turns out they did nothing wrong and the evidence ends up being incomplete. Basically: Cmdr. Shepard posted:If they did nothing wrong then they shouldn't have been charged. Of course, it should also be noted the original comment was clearly meant sarcastically, since I doubt the person had the faith in the accuracy of the justice system the first case was describing (although it was clearly the one they were sarcastically referring to. Edit: Whoops, slipped into D&D mode, sorry. I'll leave this here as a mark of shame, pretend I said something funny instead. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 20:13 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 20:11
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Kiryen posted:You're not wrong about the drugs and the nature of the prison system, but we also need to stop excusing people with ideas like "hosed from birth". People are people and will always game the system - if you give them excuses to make, they will make excuses. Gray suffered exposure to lead paint as a child, if he wasn't hosed from birth he was hosed shortly thereafter.
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May 1, 2015 20:15
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GlyphGryph posted:Edit: Whoops, slipped into D&D mode, sorry. I'll leave this here as a mark of shame, pretend I said something funny instead. This is GiP, we'll pretend you said something racist.
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May 1, 2015 20:18
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Jfc guys it was a smartass response to what was a smartass comment to begin with. I never said they did nothing wrong, I never said there was no probable cause, I said that I didn't see this coming. Murder seems like a stretch and some of the lesser charges seem trumped up but I'm an objective observer and hopefully there's something to this investigation that supports such a wide net of charges.
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May 1, 2015 20:20
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GlyphGryph posted:I think the disagreement comes from the disconnect between two interpretations of "they did nothing wrong". As a point of order, that evidence needs to meet the standard of "probable cause" but you're fundamentally correct. quote:The other case is obviously "they did nothing wrong" and the prosecutors and judge knew it. Obviously, in that situation, they should not be charged. This is the situation where the statement would be technically correct, but contextually doesn't make a whole lot of sense - there's no evidence the prosecution was political, and all the evidence that has come out so far supports a good-faith argument of continuing cause to believe they committed the crime even if it turns out they did nothing wrong and the evidence ends up being incomplete. That's also correct, and is also a fair evaluation of this particular situation. That said, the evidence is not available to any of us, so approval of the fact that the officers were charged is based essentially on faith in the process followed by the charging authority. It is not unreasonable to believe that this same faith might not appear if the result had been to not charge them even though the actual evidence available to the public is the same in either case. Or to be a bit more blunt, many people's faith in the process depends a great deal on them getting the results they want. quote:Basically: I think the "and everyone know it" was supposed to be understood in the context of Cmdr. Shepard's original comment - or at least should be understood.
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May 1, 2015 20:22
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So did the State's Attorney direct indict, or get warrants from either a Judge or
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May 1, 2015 20:27
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I can't imagine they'd have anymore information than the elements of the offense that were violated. I did read that they all turned themselves in on warrants.
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May 1, 2015 20:30
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Untagged posted:So did the State's Attorney direct indict, or get warrants from either a Judge or They should be in MD Case Search, which is a publicly viewable database.
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May 1, 2015 20:44
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Whip Slagcheek posted:They should be in MD Case Search, which is a publicly viewable database. The specific charges will, but not the documents filed along with them like a criminal complaint. Unless something has changed. 
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May 1, 2015 20:52
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do we know what each officer actually did and how it relates to the charges? All the reports I've seen say that 2 bicycle cops tackled him as he fled and called for a transport van. They stopped at one point to shackle him & then again to pick up another prisoner. A third stop was for the ambulance to transport him to the hospital. We're the other 4 officers all in that transport van???
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May 1, 2015 21:47
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Rad Lieutenant posted:do we know what each officer actually did and how it relates to the charges? All the reports I've seen say that 2 bicycle cops tackled him as he fled and called for a transport van. They stopped at one point to shackle him & then again to pick up another prisoner. A third stop was for the ambulance to transport him to the hospital. We're the other 4 officers all in that transport van??? I don't think the report has actually been released. Now that there's charges it should come out in discovery.
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May 1, 2015 21:55
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Yeah, that is why I was wondering what the charging documents said for each guy. As in if they indicated reasons for the particular charges by way of probable cause statements or what.
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May 1, 2015 22:00
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More riots when they're acquitted. Maybe they did something lovely (I think nickle rides are a little lovely), but there's not enough to convict them. If it gets in to something like "He didn't commit a crime so the arrest is assault", there could be some big repercussions ten years after when gets to the Supreme Court.
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May 1, 2015 22:00
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Grem posted:More riots when they're acquitted. Maybe they did something lovely (I think nickle rides are a little lovely), but there's not enough to convict them. Remember that time you answered the radio call to go assist that transport van driver get that dude under control? Yeah, that dude ended up dying later and YOU ARE NOW CHARGED WITH MURDER. SURPRISE!
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May 1, 2015 22:03
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Yea, I've helped load a lot of guys in to the Sheriff's van, I worked in a big city too, there's no way they get convictions. Especially not on those bike nerds.
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May 1, 2015 22:13
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Untagged posted:Remember that time you answered the radio call to go assist that transport van driver get that dude under control? Yeah, that dude ended up dying later and YOU ARE NOW CHARGED WITH MURDER. SURPRISE! "Do you seriously think they did nothing wrong?"
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May 1, 2015 22:22
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Untagged posted:Remember that time you answered the radio call to go assist that transport van driver get that dude under control? Yeah, that dude ended up dying later and YOU ARE NOW CHARGED WITH MURDER. SURPRISE! This is actually a pretty well established precedent with in the American Judicial System. When a group commits a crime and one of them murders some one, every one in the group is held accountable for the murder because it would not have happened if they were not committing a crime.
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May 1, 2015 22:24
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I think the most important question here is are all of the cops that got charged white?
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May 1, 2015 22:32
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