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victrix posted:Let me tell you about my love of consumable items in an exacting twenty page diatribe. Path of Exile did potion management right, although that's mostly in comparison to Diablo. No trekking back to town to recreate the thrilling chore of grocery shopping, just kill dudes and they'll fill up (which gives popcorn enemies some utility). ToMe is similarly well implemented, although it tends to "segregate" each encounter into its own separate thing with little continuity between them since you start each one unscathed from the prior. Edit: I should also give some praise to Path of Exile's economy. Since there is no gold, the "currency" is instead consumable items and orbs. You can theoretically cart piles of plate armor back to town for meager portions of identity scrolls but there's no point unless you actually want those identity scrolls. Bouchacha fucked around with this message at 01:28 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 01:21
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It works in FTL because the game keeps pushing you forward so you don't have to hoover up dozens of items and then backtrack to a shop for the best chance of success like in Dredmore. The low amount of sellables helps too, but having that constant pressure is very nice in that regard. Tuxedo Catfish posted:selling items isn't half as bad as hunger clocks in games where they can be completely nullified but you still have to fiddle with them
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May 2, 2015 01:21
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B-but what will keep players moving forward?? No I don't care that they already have infinite food within six floors, and no I'm not willing to accept "there's literally nothing left to do here" as a reason a player might advance! The Hypothetical Optimal Man is a menace who must be stopped!! Hunger mechanics in games that aren't specifically intended to have survival sim aspects (and even some that are) are almost always tedious and bad.
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May 2, 2015 01:26
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Angry Diplomat posted:Hunger mechanics in games that aren't specifically intended to have survival sim aspects (and even some that are) are almost always tedious and bad. The best part is when they are bumped up to 11 for "challenge" . See: every minecraft hunger "overhaul" mod. 
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May 2, 2015 01:41
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Bouchacha posted:Edit: I should also give some praise to Path of Exile's economy. Since there is no gold, the "currency" is instead consumable items and orbs. You can theoretically cart piles of plate armor back to town for meager portions of identity scrolls but there's no point unless you actually want those identity scrolls. that sounds horrible then again everything about Path of Exile sounds horrible to me. which is actually kind of weirdly refreshing because instead of one or two good features that are ruined by a dealbreaker it's very up front about being a game for my clone from the Opposite Universe
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May 2, 2015 01:53
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path of exile is literally just 'what if we took diablo 2 and made it more obtuse'
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May 2, 2015 01:54
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An economy without money and just some kind of weird barter system sounds like something where the only place it could even theoretically be good is in a multiplayer only game.
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May 2, 2015 01:57
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Path of Exile is amazing, and more replayable than the competition by an order of magnitude.
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May 2, 2015 01:57
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:path of exile is literally just 'what if we took diablo 2 and made it more obtuse' i liked diablo 2 i do not like universal / non-class-restricted skills, or skills dropping as loot, or no common currency, or always-online authentication, or how zoomed in the camera is with no way to pull it back, or how grey it is i guess in theory i might like a skill tree you need a PHD to understand because complex optimization sperging is my jam, but the fact that it's all passives makes it a lot less interesting than it otherwise would have been
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May 2, 2015 01:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i liked diablo 2
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May 2, 2015 02:05
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the skill tree had some potentially neat ideas buried in it but ultimately it all blended together into a mish-mash of boring poo poo
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May 2, 2015 02:08
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:that sounds horrible What exactly sounds horrible about it? It makes sense to base the currency on actual utility to me. It ensures that everyone would be willing to trade for it since they know they can make use of it.
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May 2, 2015 02:10
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Bouchacha posted:What exactly sounds horrible about it? It makes sense to base the currency on actual utility to me. It ensures that everyone would be willing to trade for it since they know they can make use of it. it's inconvenient and offers no benefits, except possibly at the level of the game-wide economy which i don't really care about in a diablo clone as long as cool items are rare enough to be exciting, but still attainable.
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May 2, 2015 02:21
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:it's inconvenient and offers no benefits, except possibly at the level of the game-wide economy which i don't really care about in a diablo clone as long as cool items are rare enough to be exciting, but still attainable. Too much convenience is the death of games. In PoE there's a nice balance where you'll start out bringing back as much as you can carry to get a foot in the door on the basic stuff, but gradually get more picky when you move onto more valuable currency. It all feels very natural.
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May 2, 2015 02:23
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Alkydere posted:The best part is when they are bumped up to 11 for "challenge" . See: every minecraft hunger "overhaul" mod. Hell, even the "hardcore" mode in Fallout: New Vegas was kind of disappointing. It sounded great in theory, but in practice it ended up being the same game except heavy weapons were effectively unusable and you had four radiation counters to manage instead of one.
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May 2, 2015 02:24
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 I just started a new game in Caves of Qud and not more than three turns into it Warden Ualraig murdered Mehmet, the watervine farmer who gives you the starting quest. What
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May 2, 2015 02:26
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Broken Cog posted:Too much convenience is the death of games. In PoE there's a nice balance where you'll start out bringing back as much as you can carry to get a foot in the door on the basic stuff, but gradually get more picky when you move onto more valuable currency. It all feels very natural.
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May 2, 2015 02:33
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IronicDongz posted:Any game where I have to choose what garbage to haul back with me for money is a game which is terribly unfun to play Then I guess you should never play a Diablo clone with tons of loot? The system in PoE encourages people to check everything that drops(and you fast learn to distinguish valuable/usable items in a second or two), not just go for colours and ignore everything else that drops.
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May 2, 2015 02:37
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Due to this thread I decided to open up Dredmor again and see if the UI was as bad as everyone was saying (I loved it about a year ago, then got distracted and lately I've been playing TOME) and...I had to turn on autoloot, and it just felt like such a slog with no auto-explore. Forget rest, forget everything: using the arrow keys to go everywhere is really, really annoying. If nothing else, that one jaunt into Dredmor has made me appreciate TOME all over again, just for being competent enough to throw in an autoexplore button.
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May 2, 2015 02:38
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No auto-explore is okay if you have Nethack / console terminal-sized levels. Depending on how combat works it can still be a convenient feature, as in Caves of Qud, but in something like DoomRL I don't think I would use it even if it existed.
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May 2, 2015 02:40
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Broken Cog posted:Then I guess you should never play a Diablo clone with tons of loot? The system in PoE encourages people to check everything that drops(and you fast learn to distinguish valuable/usable items in a second or two), not just go for colours and ignore everything else that drops.
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May 2, 2015 02:50
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PoE is a wonderful, well-crafted game that would have scratched every itch the 16-year-old, DIablo 2 playing me had. More than a decade later it seems like the good ideas (I actually really like the gem system, for the most part) got tied way too closely with the bad, grindy ones that come from emulating a game from a very different time.
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May 2, 2015 03:14
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Lilli posted:
Mehmet probably disinterred Ulalraig's ancestors or offended him by spilling water.
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May 2, 2015 03:38
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On Dredmor: has there been another game (not necessarily roguelike even, just game period) where you build your character by selecting a set of specialties that are then locked-in and you progress in those specialties over the course of the game? I know ToME has an unlockable weird broken version because its skillsets are not remotely balanced, but I mean more a game that's intentionally balanced around you being able to pick, like, 4-6 things that your character will be good at. It just seems like such a fantastic way to go and I'm sad I don't see it being used more.
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May 2, 2015 04:34
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:On Dredmor: has there been another game (not necessarily roguelike even, just game period) where you build your character by selecting a set of specialties that are then locked-in and you progress in those specialties over the course of the game? I know ToME has an unlockable weird broken version because its skillsets are not remotely balanced, but I mean more a game that's intentionally balanced around you being able to pick, like, 4-6 things that your character will be good at. It just seems like such a fantastic way to go and I'm sad I don't see it being used more. We started a Qud-world mobile game that used a system just like this for character creation. I really liked it, but it's backburner now that actual Qud is getting a release. :~( I wish I could just work on games 16 hours a day; but it would still be 160 hours a day too few.
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May 2, 2015 04:36
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Broken Cog posted:Then I guess you should never play a Diablo clone with tons of loot? The system in PoE encourages people to check everything that drops(and you fast learn to distinguish valuable/usable items in a second or two), not just go for colours and ignore everything else that drops. I have to say I did not find that to be the fun part of diablo.
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May 2, 2015 04:38
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Yeah like, the fun part of diablo games is when you shoot lasers at zombies and stuff and a bunch of numbers pop on screen and make you feel good.
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May 2, 2015 04:44
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Bouchacha posted:Path of Exile did potion management right, although that's mostly in comparison to Diablo. Diablo 3 has discarded potions. It's now a button that heals 60% of your maximum life.
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May 2, 2015 04:44
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Ijuuin Enzan posted:Diablo 3 has discarded potions. It's now a button that heals 60% of your maximum life. What the hell?
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May 2, 2015 05:09
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ceebee posted:What the hell? Potions for a while have been heal 60%. They got rid of multiple tiers a while ago recently they got rid of it being a physical item on your inventory because it never mattered. There are legendary potions that are still an item slot. They are also infinite use with some additional riders on use. All potions have a cool down
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May 2, 2015 06:12
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Lilli posted:
This happened to me once too, no clue why
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May 2, 2015 06:23
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:On Dredmor: has there been another game (not necessarily roguelike even, just game period) where you build your character by selecting a set of specialties that are then locked-in and you progress in those specialties over the course of the game? I know ToME has an unlockable weird broken version because its skillsets are not remotely balanced, but I mean more a game that's intentionally balanced around you being able to pick, like, 4-6 things that your character will be good at. It just seems like such a fantastic way to go and I'm sad I don't see it being used more. That's basically exactly how Dungeonmans works. Though I guess you're not really locked in since you can choose to raise anything? In practice though you generally pick a handful of lines and max them to get the useful abilities. There's (relatively) little filler in the trees, so almost every skill is important.
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May 2, 2015 06:25
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:On Dredmor: has there been another game (not necessarily roguelike even, just game period) where you build your character by selecting a set of specialties that are then locked-in and you progress in those specialties over the course of the game? I know ToME has an unlockable weird broken version because its skillsets are not remotely balanced, but I mean more a game that's intentionally balanced around you being able to pick, like, 4-6 things that your character will be good at. It just seems like such a fantastic way to go and I'm sad I don't see it being used more. i've asked this in the past and i'm pretty sure the answer is no someday i will get frustrated enough with this state of affairs to rectify it, but so far all of my attempts at making a prototype have failed because i just don't know where to start with making games 
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May 2, 2015 06:54
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So did/has anything happened with Adom? I think the last public build is ancient, and I have no idea what the state of the game is in private. Last time I checked it still had a godawfully archaic interface, so I just couldn't back into it.
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May 2, 2015 09:21
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victrix posted:godawfully archaic interface, so I just couldn't back into it. Still does. There's some added content. I don't know if the ice queen has made it into the public build or not, but that's there. It is still otherwise the same old game, just with a lot of the things that made the grinding easier (gremlin bombs, ring-based wish engine, dragon money doubling, etc) removed. Or just terribly nerfed, like the infinite dungeon.
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May 2, 2015 11:04
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They changed how the UI looks at some point around prerelease 50ish (latest public release is 23). I don't like it since it moved stat info into the @ menu and made hunger/burden levels a stupid icon above your character's head instead of being where they used to, but the new message log means way, way less mashing space to force messages to scroll during combat. The inventory menus and whatever are still the same though. the most important change is that stone oozes now replicate like normal oozes. augh!!!!
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May 2, 2015 13:19
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If you're going to have "trash loot", I quite like the way ToME handles it: you automatically hoover up everything and it goes into a loot tab that doesn't count against your carrying capacity. At any time (you're prompted to do this at level change) you can quickly skim through that tab and pull out the items you actually want; everything else gets automatically converted into gold when you go down the stairs. It's super convenient and means no constant backtracking to the store to sell poo poo or juggling your inventory around between stuff you need vs. stuff you want vs. stuff you don't need or want but which is valuable.
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May 2, 2015 13:50
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I don't like that much either, just like the loot filter coming in PoE, it's tacit acknowledgment that your game has piles of poo poo loot that isn't worth the brain power it takes to parse it. Solving problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place is a bit... I lack an emoticon for this concept. I'm sure there's a ten consonant german word for it.
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May 2, 2015 13:56
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victrix posted:I don't like that much either, just like the loot filter coming in PoE, it's tacit acknowledgment that your game has piles of poo poo loot that isn't worth the brain power it takes to parse it. This is basically also how I feel about autoexplore & rest-until-healed buttons.
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May 2, 2015 16:09
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victrix posted:I don't like that much either, just like the loot filter coming in PoE, it's tacit acknowledgment that your game has piles of poo poo loot that isn't worth the brain power it takes to parse it. Maybe not, Germans never cause unnecessary problems. 
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May 2, 2015 16:13
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