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Vendetta posted:I had to pause the show due to laughing so hard at that burn out of nowhere. I laughed harder when I noticed how completely nonplussed both Raina and Gordon were about it too, since obviously neither of them gamed... Gordon had his eyes misted off 30 years ago, sure, but I like to think Raina played at least one Sonic game in her youth. I mostly love how cavalier people are towards Raina, because of what a dick she's been. She's now near-suicidally depressed about her monstrous new form, but Cal's telling her to go kill herself while Daisy's belittling her to her face. I mean, hey, Raina sucks. I wouldn't feel bad, either.
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May 1, 2015 23:01
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Doesn't mean Coulsen still wasn't in the wrong. He's like a mailman who tries flying into the capitol building; just because you work for the same organization doesn't mean there aren't rules and consequences to going beyond the scope of your employment/authorization.
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May 1, 2015 23:02
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radlum posted:More AoU spoilers: I'm fairly certain Theta Protocol is the goddamned Helicarrier Fury restored with the help of "some friends", to the point that I'm expecting Fury or Hill to turn up with it to break up the fight between Coulson SHIELD and Gonzales SHIELD either next episode or the finale.
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May 1, 2015 23:09
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Irish Joe posted:Doesn't mean Coulsen still wasn't in the wrong. He's like a mailman who tries flying into the capitol building; just because you work for the same organization doesn't mean there aren't rules and consequences to going beyond the scope of your employment/authorization. Actually, I just looked back at the episode list and yeah, you're right. Coulsen killed those fools before the Hydra/Shield split (my timeline was wrong).
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May 1, 2015 23:27
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I'm fuzzy on the details of that episode (it's been a little while), but didn't all those soldiers pretty much refuse to identify themselves and attacked on sight? Coulson was investigating something that by all rights he had the right to look into considering what was done with him without his permission in that place, and the place was an unmarked, essentially unofficial and probably illegal if anyone knew about it secret facility that was so super top secret that essentially nobody in the entire US government or SHIELD knew about it. It's like if the president secretly stole funds to make a super-secret facility guarded by kill-on-sight non-US military mercenaries to perform highly illegal medical experiments on unwilling subjects bordering on torture on without informing anyone else. Just because he's technically in charge doesn't mean he has complete impunity to do anything he wants, and you'd hardly get mad at FBI agents informed by an escaped prisoner for storming the place and shooting back when shot at. When you put it this way, realSHIELD does have a slight point in that Fury was kinda a dick. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 00:02
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Coulson gave them repeated warnings and said at the outset "we're from SHIELD and we desperately need your help." Even while they were being shot at by real live bullets, he still gave them one last warning. Basically, he gave them every chance not to be tools, and they kept trying to shoot him with bullets that would kill him. At a certain point it's self defense.
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May 2, 2015 00:09
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Chokes McGee posted:Coulson gave them repeated warnings and said at the outset "we're from SHIELD and we desperately need your help." Even while they were being shot at by real live bullets, he still gave them one last warning. Is it self-defense if you break into someone's house to steal their poo poo and you shoot back?
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May 2, 2015 00:13
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Chokes McGee posted:Basically, he gave them every chance not to be tools, and they kept trying to shoot him with bullets that would kill him. At a certain point it's self defense. Not really. Coulsen was the trespasser and had plenty of opportunities to retreat. Comic book logic aside, it was 100%, unjustified murder.
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May 2, 2015 00:17
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old dog child posted:Is it self-defense if you break into someone's house to steal their poo poo and you shoot back? Also, they have one-shot tranq bullets.
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May 2, 2015 00:18
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Irish Joe posted:Not really. Coulsen was the trespasser and had plenty of opportunities to retreat. Comic book logic aside, it was 100%, unjustified murder. Coulson was a high-ranking agent in a multinational security agency with very few restrictions on what they can legally do. It is overwhelmingly likely that he had the ability to legally demand entrance (and forcefully enter if denied) to wherever he drat pleases if he felt there was a need for it. Cops can legally trespass in certain circumstances (particularly when lives are at stake), so it'd be bizarre for SHIELD to not have at least as much leeway. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 00:29 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 00:26
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Level 8 motherfucker. Level 8. Or was it Omega level? Who the gently caress knows. In any case, it was beyond his clearance and he loving knew it when he tried storming the base.
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May 2, 2015 00:28
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PriorMarcus posted:Also, they have one-shot tranq bullets. If you find a clandestine base of operations that refuses to offer up identification, repeatedly refuses to communicate, and begins attacking with lethal force the moment you enter their facility, you'd probably assume they are an enemy agency. Coulson may have been considering that he was starting a minor international incident at the time, but considering how secretive the base was it was likely it would never come up on public channels. He was concerned for his team member and the cost of two shadowy dudes with assault weapons was worth the cost. Additionally, even if they icer'd them, they were running very short on time because of the self-destruct and probably wouldn't have been able to save their stubborn asses anyway.
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May 2, 2015 00:32
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PierreTheMime posted:If you find a clandestine base of operations that refuses to offer up identification, repeatedly refuses to communicate, and begins attacking with lethal force the moment you enter their facility, you'd probably assume they are an enemy agency. Coulson may have been considering that he was starting a minor international incident at the time, but considering how secretive the base was it was likely it would never come up on public channels. He was concerned for his team member and the cost of two shadowy dudes with assault weapons was worth the cost. Additionally, even if they icer'd them, they were running very short on time because of the self-destruct and probably wouldn't have been able to save their stubborn asses anyway. Colson knew it was a SHIELD base. When he identified himself they asked for a passcode. And he only found out about the bomb after his crew had murdered both guards.
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May 2, 2015 00:37
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Irish Joe is actually right. Coulson did not have the clearance to go in that place. Period. There are no if's and but. Even a high ranking security clearance will not get you everywhere. Security clearances are given for a specific access and will not grant you access to other places unless you have a need to know or a reason to be there. There are protocols in place to guarantee that restricted information/assets are not in the hands of everyone who technically have a high level clearance. If you are not part of a project and have no reasons to know about it, you will not. No matter how much you stomp your feet and create a fuss. What coulson did, was unlawful, borderline treasonous and straight up murder. It was also very cool and allowed us to see pretty explosions.
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May 2, 2015 00:38
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Yeah we already had this discussion when the episode first aired but the show completely glossed over the fact that Coulson murdered a couple of dudes who were just trying to do their job, all for the sake of the episode's big action sequence. That's up there with the show pretending that the fact that Ward was raped by an alien is touching/ok because they're both hot.
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May 2, 2015 00:43
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VDay posted:Yeah we already had this discussion when the episode first aired but the show completely glossed over the fact that Coulson murdered a couple of dudes who were just trying to do their job, all for the sake of the episode's big action sequence. The show tried to portray it as touching? I don't really recall that. And that was the villain of the week, I don't think anything she did was supposed to be viewed as OK.
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May 2, 2015 00:56
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The scene in their hotel room was Ward comforting her and it was definitely portrayed as some kind of romantic exchange, after which the show never brought it up again. They just kind of pretended that they were two normal people for 5 minutes and ignored that one was an alien that was mind-controlling a person. Let me put it this way: imagine if the genders were flipped and instead of a hot lady mind-controlling Ward and sleeping with him it was instead some dude who kidnapped Skye or Jemma, mind-controlled them, and then slept with them. Kind of doubt the show would've just gone "Welp that happened, boy thank god that's over and settled and wasn't a big deal at all!" e: Thinking up scenes without actually realizing what it means for the characters or the show in the long-term was a pretty common problem in early season one episodes, where people would just kind of do stuff because hey it's a TV show, so who cares if it doesn't make sense or is completely out of character or has bigger repercussions than just this 5 minute scene. VDay fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 01:06
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boom boom boom posted:Colson knew it was a SHIELD base. When he identified himself they asked for a passcode. And he only found out about the bomb after his crew had murdered both guards. Ah, I must have not recalled the episode correctly. Yeah, as others have said that doesn't make all that much sense then.
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May 2, 2015 01:10
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Oh man we're going to get to repeat the did Ward shoot the dog discussion soon!
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May 2, 2015 01:20
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VDay posted:The scene in their hotel room was Ward comforting her and it was definitely portrayed as some kind of romantic exchange, after which the show never brought it up again. They just kind of pretended that they were two normal people for 5 minutes and ignored that one was an alien that was mind-controlling a person. Well, the main difference here wasn't gender, but that Ward was a covert agent the entire time who probably got himself mind controlled on purpose to get off the reservation for a while and blow off some steam. Ward probably hasn't thought that hard about it because he likely would have done the same thing willingly if there was no risk of blowing his cover and it potentially gained him a powerful asgardian ally. I wonder if there are any half Ward babies running around the Asgard orphanage right now.
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May 2, 2015 01:21
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Dalael posted:Irish Joe is actually right. Coulson did not have the clearance to go in that place. Period. There are no if's and but. Coulson was also essentially tortured and had super-illegal and unethical medical experiments done on him against his will there. It was so top secret it wasn't even recorded anywhere as top secret - nobody knew about it, even Fury's own bosses, so he didn't even really have legal justification either. It's a facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it doesn't exist and wasn't recorded anywhere. There comes a point when you can't just do something horribly criminal and just go 'welp it's top secret' and suddenly the person who digs it up is the criminal. They used Skye as an excuse to go there, but in the end it was well within Coulson's right to find out what happened to him in the illegal facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it shouldn't exist.
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May 2, 2015 01:38
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Wolpertinger posted:Coulson was also essentially tortured and had super-illegal and unethical medical experiments done on him against his will there. It was so top secret it wasn't even recorded anywhere as top secret - nobody knew about it, even Fury's own bosses. It's a facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it doesn't exist and wasn't recorded anywhere. There comes a point when you can't just do something horribly criminal and just go 'welp it's top secret' and suddenly the person who digs it up is the criminal. They used Skye as an excuse to go there, but in the end it was well within Coulson's right to find out what happened to him in the illegal facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it shouldn't exist. You're probably right, but there was zero reason not to just use icers. The icers are actually more effective than standard weapons since they turn every shots into 1-shot KOs, no matter where you hit. But forgetting the icers was basically nothing more than a continuity error, and there's nothing more to be gained from analyzing that aspect than any other continuity error.
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May 2, 2015 01:41
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XboxPants posted:You're probably right, but there was zero reason not to just use icers. The icers are actually more effective than standard weapons since they turn every shots into 1-shot KOs, no matter where you hit. Yeah, they should have used icers, yeah, but that wouldn't allow them to have the dramatic bomb detonation which causes all the drama with the single vial of remaining blood. (because icers knock people out instantly)
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May 2, 2015 01:44
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Wolpertinger posted:Yeah, they should have used icers, yeah, but that wouldn't allow them to have the dramatic bomb detonation which causes all the drama with the single vial of remaining blood. (because icers knock people out instantly) Well it still could have allowed for it, just one of them would have had to come to and press the self destruct button before whoever was watching him could react.
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May 2, 2015 01:49
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Didn't they set the explosives before the fire fight, with the idea that the place would blow if neither of the survived to turn off the explosives?
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May 2, 2015 02:20
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boom boom boom posted:Colson knew it was a SHIELD base. When he identified himself they asked for a passcode. And he only found out about the bomb after his crew had murdered both guards. Even in retrospect I'm not convinced anyone there was HYDRA, so yeah. In fact given how much HYDRA was interested in Coulson, I'd say they were positively SHIELD agents. ED: I forgot Garrett was still with them specifically to find the place, so yeah, even more proof that they were just regular SHIELD guys. Wolpertinger posted:Coulson was also essentially tortured and had super-illegal and unethical medical experiments done on him against his will there. It was so top secret it wasn't even recorded anywhere as top secret - nobody knew about it, even Fury's own bosses, so he didn't even really have legal justification either. It's a facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it doesn't exist and wasn't recorded anywhere. There comes a point when you can't just do something horribly criminal and just go 'welp it's top secret' and suddenly the person who digs it up is the criminal. They used Skye as an excuse to go there, but in the end it was well within Coulson's right to find out what happened to him in the illegal facility that has no legal status anywhere in the world because it shouldn't exist. Don't forget, though, Coulson actually ran that base for a long time. Anything done to him, he did to many others. Had things been different, another SHIELD agent could have shown up and shot him in the face instead. He might have a different view on "rights and illegal facilities" in that perspective. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 03:03 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 02:57
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XboxPants posted:You're probably right, but there was zero reason not to just use icers. The icers are actually more effective than standard weapons since they turn every shots into 1-shot KOs, no matter where you hit. I think it wasn't a continuity error, it believe it was done because if the guards had lived they could have answered some questions that the writers didn't want answered yet (specifically that Coulson was the guy in charge of the TAHITI project).
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May 2, 2015 03:06
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They weren't Hydra, but I seriously doubt they were "Regular" SHIELD guys either. I'd guess some pretty hardcore mercenaries or something. Regular SHIELD agents don't keep trying to kill other SHIELD agents as the other agents are trying to talk you down.
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May 2, 2015 03:06
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counterfeitsaint posted:Regular SHIELD agents don't keep trying to kill other SHIELD agents as the other agents are trying to talk you down. REAL SHIELD disagrees.
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May 2, 2015 03:10
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I think it wasn't a continuity error, it believe it was done because if the guards had lived they could have answered some questions that the writers didn't want answered yet (specifically that Coulson was the guy in charge of the TAHITI project). They really should have made sure Ward and Garrett were responsible for their deaths. greatn fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 03:10
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counterfeitsaint posted:They weren't Hydra, but I seriously doubt they were "Regular" SHIELD guys either. I'd guess some pretty hardcore mercenaries or something. Regular SHIELD agents don't keep trying to kill other SHIELD agents as the other agents are trying to talk you down. They didn't get a chance to, like, inspect their badges or whatever situation you think you're portraying, though. If some dudes walk into your base, claim they're your allies but then don't know what the password is, then you assume they're an enemy invading force. It's pretty basic spycraft to just say "no really, I'm on your side, I just forgot the password! let me in, ey buddy old pal? Eh? Eh?"
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May 2, 2015 03:10
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Blazing Ownager posted:Even in retrospect I'm not convinced anyone there was HYDRA, so yeah. In fact given how much HYDRA was interested in Coulson, I'd say they were positively SHIELD agents. To be fair, in the Coulson flashback it gave the impression those were volunteers that were all dying or seriously ill - and then he tried to shut it down after it became clear just how bad it was. The fact that it ended with mindwiping was pretty crappy though, yeah, but I guess they couldn't think of any other solution, and presumably the people volunteered knowing that they could die or have serious side effects. It's probably fair to say that if he had the choice to go through with it or knowing what would happen to him, he would probably say 'no'. XboxPants posted:They didn't get a chance to, like, inspect their badges or whatever situation you think you're portraying, though. If some dudes walk into your base, claim they're your allies but then don't know what the password is, then you assume they're an enemy invading force. It's pretty basic spycraft to just say "no really, I'm on your side, I just forgot the password! let me in, ey buddy old pal? Eh? Eh?" The guards wouldn't let them flash their badges, though. And it's not like probably anyone but fury (who was nowhere to be found despite all this poo poo happening) and maybe a couple scientists/doctors knew the password anyway at that point. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 03:12
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Wolpertinger posted:The fact that it ended with mindwiping was pretty crappy though, yeah, but I guess they couldn't think of any other solution, It was the only way they figured that could suppress the kree homing instinct thing. As an aside, while we're all beating the Tahiti Guard discussion to death again, I just want to remember how awesome the train set reveal in that guy's barn/garage was. I loved how it looked and how they did it.
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May 2, 2015 03:17
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I suddenly wonder if they should have tried to sneak some blood off of the Kree dude after knocking him out. It's hella dangerous but it's still a miracle drug that could revolutionize medicine. I guess with comic book logic it's probably a dangerous forbidden thing humans should never ever mess with again despite the potential for amazing things like the Tesseract (and Captain America's blood in Agent Carter, come to think of it), though.
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May 2, 2015 03:23
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Wolpertinger posted:I suddenly wonder if they should have tried to sneak some blood off of the Kree dude after knocking him out. It's hella dangerous but it's still a miracle drug that could revolutionize medicine. I guess with comic book logic it's probably a dangerous forbidden thing humans should never ever mess with again despite the potential for amazing things like the Tesseract (and Captain America's blood in Agent Carter, come to think of it), though. The Kree are pretty weird, it might not work for all of them anyway. And hell, maybe they did sneak a sample.
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May 2, 2015 03:27
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PierreTheMime posted:If you find a clandestine base of operations that refuses to offer up identification, repeatedly refuses to communicate, and begins attacking with lethal force the moment you enter their facility, you'd probably assume they are an enemy agency. Coulson may have been considering that he was starting a minor international incident at the time, but considering how secretive the base was it was likely it would never come up on public channels. He was concerned for his team member and the cost of two shadowy dudes with assault weapons was worth the cost. Additionally, even if they icer'd them, they were running very short on time because of the self-destruct and probably wouldn't have been able to save their stubborn asses anyway. Yea it's cool we are just breaking into your base to check out some poo poo. Trust me, I have level 8 clearance. I don't need no passcode.
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May 2, 2015 05:07
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Well, I'm just gonna cut ahead to here and say that the beginning of Age of Ultron is directly linked to them locating Loki's scepter at the end of the last episode. If you don't see the connections, you are either 1) not so good at English/paying attention/too excited or 2) Dan Didio. Liszt is right there, for one. That is all.
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May 2, 2015 05:29
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Yea it's cool we are just breaking into your base to check out some poo poo. Trust me, I have level 8 clearance. I don't need no passcode. If their base doesn't officially exist, how can anyone be expected recognize and respect it's boundaries? Or do the guards get a pass in some sort of really weird Stand Your Ground interpretation? Are they just high tech squatters who were exercising the right to lethally defend their (very blinged out) cave they've decided to live in? I don't know who's soil that base was actually on, but it's a very safe bet the sovereign nation they were in wasn't aware of them, and was not giving them permission to be there.
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May 2, 2015 05:40
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Y'all are just mad that Bob died.
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May 2, 2015 05:41
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counterfeitsaint posted:If their base doesn't officially exist, how can anyone be expected recognize and respect it's boundaries? Or do the guards get a pass in some sort of really weird Stand Your Ground interpretation? Are they just high tech squatters who were exercising the right to lethally defend their (very blinged out) cave they've decided to live in? I don't know who's soil that base was actually on, but it's a very safe bet the sovereign nation they were in wasn't aware of them, and was not giving them permission to be there. This but ironically. It is totally cool Coulson murdered those guys. They weren't actually defending an official base.
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May 2, 2015 05:46
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