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May 2, 2015 19:52
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Ibram Gaunt posted:How did I miss this post. Prepare to die. I don't understand Also  Edit: Rin is bad littleorv fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 19:54
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littleorv posted:Edit: Rin is bad Wrong  
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May 2, 2015 20:18
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Ding Dong the Witch is dead! 
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May 2, 2015 20:22
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Archer you a dick.
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May 2, 2015 20:41
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Compendium posted:Wrong Yeah I'll admit that this was pretty cool.
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May 2, 2015 20:44
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I felt like I came away from that episode going "that's it?". I'm watching this for the fight sequences, and Archer vs. Lancer was ok, not great, and broke the flow multiple times for them to talk. Shirou and Kuzuki was in the background and it even skipped a part where Kuzuki hits Shirou. Rin's unarmed part was interesting, but otherwise...It feels like they blew most of their "cool action scene" budget in the first season. Beyond that though, the narrative itself doesn't really seem to be doing anything. Caster just straight up dying out of nowhere just felt anticlimatic. I figured Archer was going to betray her, but all her schemes had basically no payoff whatsoever. Perhaps that's the point with her legend, but narratively it doesn't work very well. I can't help but contrast it with the scene in Fate/Zero, where Kiritsugu kills Kayneth. That scene had multiple narrative devices going on, like Kiritsugu not just killing Kayneth, but stripping him of his pride and his love before leaving him to bleed out. As well, the ideological clash between him and Saber, both exemplified in Saber and Lancer's duel, and Kiritsugu's speech at the end of the scene, which was very well done. Here there was nothing like that, it was yet another full on assault with very little thinking involved, and the protagonists getting bailed out again as the antagonist is serendipitously removed in time for Gilgamesh to play that role, I guess.
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May 2, 2015 20:54
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UBW is filled with moments that are ultimately just "well, that happened, I guess". Villains just get unceremoniously killed to get them out of the way for other villains that are also unceremoniously killed. It's a story with exactly one point to make and a bunch of filler characters who exist for no reason.
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May 2, 2015 21:09
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Lord Justice posted:I can't help but contrast it with the scene in Fate/Zero, where Kiritsugu kills Kayneth. That scene had multiple narrative devices going on, like Kiritsugu not just killing Kayneth, but stripping him of his pride and his love before leaving him to bleed out. As well, the ideological clash between him and Saber, both exemplified in Saber and Lancer's duel, and Kiritsugu's speech at the end of the scene, which was very well done. Here there was nothing like that, it was yet another full on assault with very little thinking involved, and the protagonists getting bailed out again as the antagonist is serendipitously removed in time for Gilgamesh to play that role, I guess. Also that other thing. I will readily concede that the episode probably shouldn't have ended there, but man I feel like I could make a list of complaints at where they've ended episodes (seriously didn't end the season at Archer's betrayal?). Twiddy fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 2, 2015 |
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May 2, 2015 21:38
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Caster and Kuzuki were the best. Godspeed you poor bastards. And Archer is a dick, but It Is Known. Is it me or were the Rin faces particularly weird this episode?
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May 3, 2015 00:38
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Kellanved posted:Is it me or were the Rin faces particularly weird this episode? Not just you. I'm pretty sure the parts that weren't fight scenes took a bit of a nosedive in terms of art.
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May 3, 2015 00:41
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Kellanved posted:Caster and Kuzuki were the best. Godspeed you poor bastards. And Archer is a dick, but It Is Known. Her face is always weird.
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May 3, 2015 01:51
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Kellanved posted:Is it me or were the Rin faces particularly weird this episode? Wrong, she's perfect.
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May 3, 2015 01:51
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Y'know, Archer is awfully half assed about wanting to kill Shirou considering if he really wanted to he could probably do it in like ten seconds Makes you kinda question his sincerity
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May 3, 2015 02:06
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Lord Justice posted:Caster just straight up dying out of nowhere just felt anticlimatic. I kind of agree. As much as I love Rin, it's unusual seeing the most hyped servant suddenly get beat up half to death.
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May 3, 2015 02:30
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Shneak posted:I kind of agree. As much as I love Rin, it's unusual seeing the most hyped servant suddenly get beat up half to death. It's almost like Rin exploited Caster's weaknesses rather than trying to brute force through it (although she had to do that, too).
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May 3, 2015 03:33
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 j/k Rin is pretty cool and i bet i would be annoyed if Shirou ends up with some other girl in the VN's various iterations.
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May 3, 2015 04:37
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a kitten posted:
Then boy oh boy you'd best be ready because there's some Darkest Timeline poo poo inbound.
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May 3, 2015 04:59
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Twiddy posted:Unfortunately, as Caster found out, being able to teleport, shoot laser beams, instantly cast spells without incantations, and honestly whatever the hell else Caster can do doesn't mean jack poo poo when you've already been punched in the gut. You'd be correct if Rin had actually killed Caster. She didn't, and in fact was unable to. Caster died due to Archer's betrayal, which wasn't set up by Rin nor really part of her plan. This is sort of the problem with the narrative on display here, the protagonists can't seem to really achieve anything because they're completely outclassed, and Caster is only dead because she didn't count on Archer's betrayal, not Rin's ability. If Archer had not interfered, Saber would have most likely killed or injured Rin and Shirou. Twiddy posted:The purpose of Kayneth's death was to show that Kiritsugu will use unscrupulous methods that are at odds with his partner, Saber. The purpose of Caster's death was to show that Archer will use unscrupulous methods that are at odds with his partner, Rin. Which ties into my contrast of the scene where Kayneth dies in Fate/Zero. Obviously the scenes have similar functions, which is why they come to mind. However the key difference here is that the F/Z scene is setup properly, it is the end of the feud between Kiritsugu and Kayneth. Kayneth has several flaws which have been built up to this point, along with certain motivations, all of which Kiritsugu ruthlessly exploits. Caster is similar, but I feel that her narrative is much more vague (You really need to be aware of the actual legend to really understand what's going on with her, and while I imagine that's part of the point, the presentation really shouldn't be relying on that, especially since she's not as historically "relevant" as King Arthur, Alexander the Great, or Gilgamesh, to name a few examples), and the scene really doesn't play off it anyway. Caster is betrayed and dies in the process of protecting someone, and that fits the legend in a way, but doesn't have the narrative impact or weight of Kayneth's death. Part of the problem is in terms of ability as well. Her death wasn't really the result of careful planning or scheming, it was just a lucky break. Kayneth's death was explicitly planned and carried out flawlessly. I feel this is endemic of a larger issue between F/Z and UBW, and why I feel Kiritsugu is a better protagonist than Shirou, at least personally. Shirou, to be frank, is utterly useless and incapable. He is constantly screwing up, and is really only alive because the narrative forces him to be. Kiritsugu on the other hand, while not perfect (the whole save the world thing blowing up in his face), is still far more competent and completes his plans and meets his objectives. If Kiritsugu was around in the 5th Grail War, something tells me it would have been over a while ago. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 06:10 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 05:43
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May 3, 2015 06:07
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May 3, 2015 06:14
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Rin beating the poo poo out of Caster is one of the best moments in the series, because she didn't bullshit her way out of being punched like any other anime with a character like that would do and it makes it so characters that don't rely on crazy powers like her actually have a chance of fighting her without it being forced.
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May 3, 2015 06:20
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Archer's Bizarre Adventure
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May 3, 2015 06:25
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This episode is really paced and set up poorly. -Lancer was supposed to gradually ramping up his offense until it overwhelm Archer's defense. -Rin was actually racing around the church while defending against Caster's casual attack. -Rin was supposed to make her final move when caster going for the kill, and she should have been pummeling Caster to prevent her from retaliating. -The Shirou vs Kuzuki scene seemed to be shuffled and repeated -Kuzuki's reinforcement buff disappearing should have been given more attention, and it was suppose to demonstrate how futile his actions (and how much slower he is without the buff) were when Archer didn't even bother dodging Kuzuki's strike on his head (Servant's are immune to non-magic attacks) -The scene where Saber saves Shirou from Archer by tackling him wasn't made clear. -Not to mention, there was too many openings in the action scenes inside the church, to the point where it plays out like a turn-based combat. They don't have to animate the action all the time, but they could have placed the scene much better (such as pacing some of the explanation during the time compression moment)
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May 3, 2015 07:16
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Randomzx posted:-Rin was actually racing around the church while defending against Caster's casual attack. quote:-The Shirou vs Kuzuki scene seemed to be shuffled and repeated This is why Shirou hit the wall twice
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May 3, 2015 07:52
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Randomzx posted:-Lancer was supposed to gradually ramping up his offense until it overwhelm Archer's defense. Huh. Lancer clearly slowly ramps up his offense. Remember at the start they are about equal, then Lancer basically says "gently caress it, I am not holding back anymore" and starts to clearly outclass Archer. Then after a bit he uses his Gae Bolg which all but kills Archer. If you watch Kuzuki's hands after Caster dies there is a moment when you can clearly see a magical field break around them. Also, watching the guy who up until that point was kind of a badass get killed in two moves by Archer who was clearly not even trying showed quite clearly that what Kuzuki was doing was quite futile. I don't even know what to say to this one. It is shown quite clearly that Saber tackles Shirou away from where he is currently standing before moments later multiple swords come and impale the spot where Shirou was just standing.
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May 3, 2015 08:05
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Are these things actually apparent if you haven't read the VN before, though?
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May 3, 2015 11:47
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I'm completely non-confused. Am I missing some of the details ? Apparently, but that's the nature of adaptation. a kitten fucked around with this message at 13:09 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 13:05
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So I don't remember what happened in the VN at this part too well, but I just realized something about the Rin/Caster fight: If Rin could just punch Caster's lights out and not bother with magic at all, then why did she even need to drag that whole thing out? She could have just beat up Caster and then helped Shirou with Kuzuki. Hell, even Saber could have helped out at that point.
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May 3, 2015 15:57
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Fangz posted:Are these things actually apparent if you haven't read the VN before, though? If a post that complains about pacing is full of "supposed to" and "should have's" it's actually a post bitching about how it didn't match up with the perfect scenario they had in their head. As someone who hasn't read the VN, it all seemed fine to me.
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May 3, 2015 16:05
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ViggyNash posted:So I don't remember what happened in the VN at this part too well, but I just realized something about the Rin/Caster fight: If Rin could just punch Caster's lights out and not bother with magic at all, then why did she even need to drag that whole thing out? She could have just beat up Caster and then helped Shirou with Kuzuki. Hell, even Saber could have helped out at that point. I wasn't super analyzing it in detail or anything, but maybe she was waiting for Caster to stop flying and let her guard down?
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May 3, 2015 16:18
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That's the impression I always got. Rin was well aware how Caster likes to gloat, and with Shirou and Kuzuki off fighting each other, if Rin could get Caster to drop her guard and stop flying around and thinking she won, she could get her right where she wanted.
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May 3, 2015 16:36
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A Servant is still a Servant, if Caster knew what Rin was going to do she would've owned her. Tricking her into thinking it was a magic duel first was the idea.
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May 3, 2015 19:12
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So when are Shiro and Rin going to bone? Since I'm only here for the VVVV good littleorv fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 20:56
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In about three or four episodes probs
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May 3, 2015 20:58
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Lewd
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May 3, 2015 23:50
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Lord Justice posted:Which ties into my contrast of the scene where Kayneth dies in Fate/Zero. Obviously the scenes have similar functions, which is why they come to mind. However the key difference here is that the F/Z scene is setup properly, it is the end of the feud between Kiritsugu and Kayneth. Kayneth has several flaws which have been built up to this point, along with certain motivations, all of which Kiritsugu ruthlessly exploits. Caster is similar, but I feel that her narrative is much more vague (You really need to be aware of the actual legend to really understand what's going on with her, and while I imagine that's part of the point, the presentation really shouldn't be relying on that, especially since she's not as historically "relevant" as King Arthur, Alexander the Great, or Gilgamesh, to name a few examples), and the scene really doesn't play off it anyway. Caster is betrayed and dies in the process of protecting someone, and that fits the legend in a way, but doesn't have the narrative impact or weight of Kayneth's death. I can't dodge that they completely glossed over the importance of Archer aiming for Kuzuki to kill Caster. As far as getting narrative impact or weight, Archer being an rear end isn't the big off in this story like it is in Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero is essentially about why Kiritsugu sucks. Fate/Stay Night is about something a little different, so the synonymous huge payoff scene is supposed to come in about... 2 episodes. I've been waiting to see if they pull that off well since this anime began, and its success kind of hinges on that.
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May 3, 2015 23:51
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But seriously another important difference between the two characters is beyond Kiritsugu being an rear end, I couldn't care the least about Kayneth's death. He's a 2 bit character who only existed to be an rear end in a top hat stepping stone between the start of the story and the fight that actually matters between Kiritsugu and Kirie (as well as whatever Waver accomplishes), whereas Caster is actually kind of cool and Medea is a tragic enough character in her own story that I actually give a drat.
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May 4, 2015 00:08
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It wasn't so much Kiritsugu was an rear end, or at least it wasn't a theme so trite as that. He was just an rear end as a consequence of his central character trait: misguided idealism. Hell, the entire show was about the dangers of misguided idealism. And not his idealism in particular either; it was about being overly obsessed with any ideal. Saber was basically the same as Kiritsugu, but her ideal was about what it means to be a good king. Matou's ideal was that of the sacrificial hero. All three of them ultimately failed and were royally screwed over. As for Lord Justice's points, I think it was more a case of sloppy direction and screenplay than anything wrong with the narrative itself. This second half of the show isn't really being done all that well. They're generally getting the points across and there's sill some really good action porn, but they aren't selling the narrative beats when they really matter.
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May 4, 2015 00:34
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ViggyNash posted:It wasn't so much Kiritsugu was an rear end, or at least it wasn't a theme so trite as that. No you're right and I was just being trite because the point was that that scene was Fate/Zero's big payoff scene that the entire story centers around with the entire story falling apart if they gently caress it up, and we haven't gotten to Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works'. Because the stories are about different things, their big moments are gonna be different things. Basically, you're right that they've quite been hitting all the emotional points they should be but the core reason that one scene has a lot more impact than the other is because one is a good ol' old-school story telling Climax with a capital C and one isn't. You can't compare the two that deeply. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 01:14 on May 4, 2015 |
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May 4, 2015 01:06
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