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Yeah, I was thinking that melee was STR reliant without class feature that says otherwise. Might have to look at how the fighter options progress and fit some things in at different levels, but it shouldn't be hard to smash the concept in.
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May 5, 2015 15:44
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I will never understand how 4e supposedly discouraged trickery or thinking outside of the box.
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May 5, 2015 15:45
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Dirk the Average posted:I will never understand how 4e supposedly discouraged trickery or thinking outside of the box. "The combat is so good/the game spends so much time talking about combat that obviously it's the only thing that they want us to do!" Probably more of the latter than the former, and yes, it doesn't really make sense unless you already had a predisposition to dislike 4e.
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May 5, 2015 15:49
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Baseless accusations against 4E? Well I never! Honestly I'm tired of 4E because gently caress wading through a thousand feats to find the ones you want (or need to fix your class), plus I don't have the offline character builder so I'd have to pay for a month of D&D Insider to access the character builder, but it's still a solid--albeit flawed*--system. * Far less than any other edition of D&D, mind you. Edit: it also did skills a hell of a lot better than 5E did so I dunno what that jackass is even talking about. gently caress, 5E barely bothers to even give a description of each skill. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 16:17
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Dick Burglar posted:Honestly I'm tired of 4E because gently caress wading through a thousand feats to find the ones you want (or need to fix your class), plus I don't have the offline character builder so I'd have to pay for a month of D&D Insider to access the character builder, but it's still a solid--albeit flawed*--system. As a relative newcomer to the hobby, it's such a joy to DM though - the DCs are all there, the players are the ones that have to
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May 5, 2015 16:36
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Oh, absolutely. If I were convinced I was going to be sticking with the game for a long time I'd be fine with making up a character in 4E. It's still my D&D edition of choice. It's just hard to find the energy to make characters for 4E PBP games where I'm not guaranteed to get into them, and the games aren't guaranteed to last.
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May 5, 2015 16:46
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Does anyone in this thread actually like 5E? Everyone here seems to be talking about how 4E was so much better, which is odd because everyone I've talked to who has played it hated it.
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May 5, 2015 17:24
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People who hate 4e generally hate it for really bad reasons, like "I can't insta-kill the PCs" or "Fighters are too good at fighting."
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May 5, 2015 17:40
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Monster Envy really seems to like it. 4e generally comes up tangentially here as an example of how X, Y, or Z was designed better. It was a better designed game overall, (ie: one that actually gave a gently caress about a formula) but hating on 4e became a nerd cultural touchstone for most gamers long before they actually tried it.
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May 5, 2015 17:42
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Really Pants posted:People who hate 4e generally hate it for really bad reasons, like "I can't insta-kill the PCs" or "Fighters are too good at fighting." Well you'll be pleased to know that neither of those are reasons cited. The most frequent were "it's a board game with light roleplaying elements attached", "it's a rollplaying game", "all the classes are the same/too similar".
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May 5, 2015 17:45
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^^ Those are pretty bad reasons, not least because there aren't really any roleplaying differences between it, 3.x and 5e. D&D has never been a good game for non-combat related things. It was, is, and probably forever will be, a dungeon crawler. They had the chance to do something new and innovative, but killed it in favour of safe familiarity. It's disappointing more than anything. goatface fucked around with this message at 17:50 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 17:46
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Dr. Tough posted:Does anyone in this thread actually like 5E? Everyone here seems to be talking about how 4E was so much better, which is odd because everyone I've talked to who has played it hated it. In my experience it's mostly people that haven't played it that hate it. You can tell because the arguments they use are generally nonsense instead of the many valid issues with the system. If someone says something like "It doesn't feel like D&D" when "Combat has too many tiny modifiers to track and the first MM was near useless" is available, you can tell they never actually played the game. Dr. Tough posted:Well you'll be pleased to know that neither of those are reasons cited. The most frequent were "it's a board game with light roleplaying elements attached", "it's a rollplaying game", "all the classes are the same/too similar". Exactly, nonsense arguments like these.
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May 5, 2015 17:47
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I've never understood how rolled stats aren't, the ULTIMATE example of "rollplaying". It's exactly letting the dice decide instead of you!
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May 5, 2015 17:48
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Dr. Tough posted:Well you'll be pleased to know that neither of those are reasons cited. The most frequent were "it's a board game with light roleplaying elements attached", "it's a rollplaying game", "all the classes are the same/too similar". "Light roleplaying" and "all classes the same" are really common complaints from people who played in bad faith or (even more commonly) never played at all. It has the exact same amount of roleplaying as every D&D ever. It's true that classes looked more the same, since you had roughly the same number of pages for what each character could do, as opposed to one page for the fighter and most of the PHB for the casters. They didn't play the same, though, which is why I made the comment about playing in bad faith or not playing at all.
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May 5, 2015 17:50
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I've played 5e and I want to like it, there are just LFQW problems like crazy, and there are some mechanics that make absolutely no sense and are overly punishing to specific kinds of characters. There are just enough ideas stolen from 4e that they sort of understand what worked with it, but they're implemented in a way that shows they didn't understand why they worked.goatface posted:They had the chance to do something new and innovative, but killed it in favour of safe familiarity. It's disappointing more than anything.
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May 5, 2015 17:52
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theironjef posted:Exactly, nonsense arguments like these. The "classes are too similar" thing is probably the most damning giveaway. Clad presentation in the books was unified, but in play most were absolutely nothing alike. Even powers that read similarly might play 100% differently. But if you're reading the book on the toilet, it all looks like "do some damage and shove a monster."
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May 5, 2015 17:55
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Dr. Tough posted:Well you'll be pleased to know that neither of those are reasons cited. The most frequent were "it's a board game with light roleplaying elements attached", "it's a rollplaying game", "all the classes are the same/too similar". "It's a boardgame" mostly comes from the fact that many of the game's mechanics, especially with regards to combat, are spelled out in a very technical manner that leaves very little room for misinterpretation. This is actually a good thing in the sense that there's not going to be that discussion from last page about what the gently caress Sneak Attack actually does. "It's a rollplaying game" comes from the point I made earlier, that since the combat mechanics are so comprehensive, they people think you cannot (or should not) do anything else. The thing is, 3rd Edition's combat was just as procedural. People just put their blinders on for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which were market forces (read: Paizo) deliberately trying to create a wedge issue by passing off 4e as some sort of "untrue to D&D video game" The other thing to keep in mind is that D&D has always had very loose role-playing outside of combat. I mean, the original D&D didn't even have a task resolution system for skill checks! If you wanted to talk to the King and lie to him, either your DM made up a roll on the spot, or you resolved it entire by talking it out at the table. 3rd Edition? Again, no different. Whatever non-combat interactions you have would be decided by player or DM fiat, or come down to a roll of a d20+modifier against an arbitrary DC. A Game of Thrones-esque campaign would generally be a bunch of rolls against your CHA modifier, except when your DM decides to award you auto-successes or auto-failures. "all the classes are the same/too similar" - this is the big one. This is not a bad thing. The entire CRPG/MMORPG genre has built an multi-million dollar industry around people being able to have fun because they're all able to contribute meaningfully to the group that they're playing with! Simply put, you'd only consider this a bad thing if you were coming off of previous editions where spellcasters were significantly better than all the other classes and wanted to retain that position of power to the detriment of other players who want to play a different archetype.
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May 5, 2015 17:58
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So, when can we expect the Book of Nine Swords to make it into 5th so that fighters are actually awesome again?
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May 5, 2015 18:00
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The reason 4th Edition "doesn't have roleplaying" is because there aren't a million spells like charm person and silent image and stone shape that unilaterally let you do freeform things to reality. I mean, some of them are, but they're rituals, which means you can't just do them whenever you want with a wave of your hand. (Also, a fighter can do it, but I believe that's neither here nor there.)
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May 5, 2015 18:00
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gradenko_2000 posted:"all the classes are the same/too similar" - this is the big one. This is not a bad thing. The entire CRPG/MMORPG genre has built an multi-million dollar industry around people being able to have fun because they're all able to contribute meaningfully to the group that they're playing with! Simply put, you'd only consider this a bad thing if you were coming off of previous editions where spellcasters were significantly better than all the other classes and wanted to retain that position of power to the detriment of other players who want to play a different archetype. I've always found that argument hilarious when it comes from 3.x diehards, what with that being the edition that proudly introduced the Sorceror to the class list. What's this, a wizard who learns spells automatically? Introduced in the edition where wizards first started to learn spells automatically? What a huge difference!
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May 5, 2015 18:00
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Dr. Tough posted:Well you'll be pleased to know that neither of those are reasons cited. The most frequent were "it's a board game with light roleplaying elements attached", "it's a rollplaying game", "all the classes are the same/too similar". They are really going to love 5e's class selection of Man Who Makes Melee Attacks #1-7 and Man Who Casts Spells #1-5, then.
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May 5, 2015 18:02
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Well regardless, once my group wraps up our current Deadlands game I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change.
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May 5, 2015 18:03
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5e is not going to change anything.
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May 5, 2015 18:05
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Dr. Tough posted:Well regardless, once my group wraps up our current Deadlands game I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change. It's not much of a change
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May 5, 2015 18:06
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5E is just reheated 3.5 mush.
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May 5, 2015 18:07
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Dr. Tough posted:Well regardless, once my group wraps up our current Deadlands game I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change. Noooooo every die you roll for the Jesus edition burns my demonic 4th edition skin! No but seriously have fun and no one gives a poo poo.
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May 5, 2015 18:07
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2E wasn't a huge change from 1E but that didn't mean it was "mush" or "reheated"
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May 5, 2015 18:08
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Dr. Tough posted:Well regardless, once my group wraps up our current Deadlands game I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change. I'm sorry to tell you this, but part of the reason the thread is so down on 5e is precisely because it's not a change from 3e. Give everyone full BAB, start BAB at +2, slow down BAB progression to +1 every 4 levels, use the level-based skills rule from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana and you're most of the way there.
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May 5, 2015 18:09
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Dr. Tough posted:I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change. This fourth version of 3E, that's going to be where the fun's at! 
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May 5, 2015 18:09
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Dr. Tough posted:2E wasn't a huge change from 1E but that didn't mean it was "mush" or "reheated" The big difference with 1e moving into 2e is that it was forward movement.
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May 5, 2015 18:10
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moths posted:This fourth version of 3E, that's going to be where the fun's at! Well I like 3E, so yes since 5E is an evolution of those rules I do imagine that I'll have fun.
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May 5, 2015 18:10
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There are plenty of free games out there that will give you what you're looking for. Please do not pay hundreds of dollars for half-assed 3.5 houserules from DragonGamer666's GeoCities Page of Adventure.
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May 5, 2015 18:11
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You certainly deserve it after your 12 year struggle.
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May 5, 2015 18:11
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moths posted:This fourth version of 3E, that's going to be where the fun's at! "When I first came here, this was all AD&D. Everyone said I was daft to build a modern D&D out of AD&D, but I built it all the same, just to show them. The game crashed. So I built a second version. That crashed. So I built a third. That got derailed, TPK'd, and then crashed. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest 3E in all of England!"
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May 5, 2015 18:13
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I bought the core books with an Amazon giftcard so if I don't like it I'm not out any money. Where is the new edition wars thread? I really should have just taken this there.
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May 5, 2015 18:14
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Kortel posted:Any experience with the new Elemental Evil set? Any pitfalls like with Dragon Horde forcing the party in to specific situations? Check out the PbP on our very own somethingawful forums, right here! So far, the first adventure was bullshit, in keeping with all 1st-level 5e adventures being bullshit, apparently.
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May 5, 2015 18:15
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Dr. Tough posted:Well regardless, once my group wraps up our current Deadlands game I'm going to start a 5E campaign because after 14 years of playing and enjoying three versions of 3E it's time for a change. You will instead enjoy a fourth version of 3E! In fairness, I invite you to post your experiences in this thread! Most of us are running other games ATM and have very little to report about 5e. There were a couple of play/game reports earlier in the thread but you'd be one of the first running a new game in a while. Feel free to ask questions, post comments or just tell us some funny stories about 5e. I don't think anybody in the thread is opposed to hearing good stuff about the game, it's just that most of us are either a.) stuck examining the same material since nothing new or revolutionary has come out yet or b.) continuously defending the position that 5e isn't a fantastic game. The whole internet seems to have joy boners for it. There's no marked difference between it and 3.X, really, and if you liked 3.X it is a cleaner version of that. I think most of us have PTSD about defending 4e and its concepts at this point. I have had to argue with all of the following since 4e's release: * This is just like WoW! * All the classes are the same! * Why does every class have spells like a Wizard? * Why can the Fighter taunt? This is MMO baby poo poo. * Healing surges give you instant HP! That's stupid! * Warlords can shout you back to life? My verisimilitude! * You can't roleplay at all in this game! Everything is combat! These are all bad faith arguments because they aren't true. I'm not going to talk your ear off about how they aren't true unless you ask and I'm sure other goons are doing so as I speak. Any talk of 5e will cycle back around to these arguments because 5e is basically DnD: Totally not 4th Edition! A lot of very good concepts were tossed out the window based on a flawed conception of what they were or what they did.You have these situations (Fighter marks, Healing Surges, etc) where concepts were dismissed from 5e because the community 'hated' them and yet the community actually had no idea how they really worked in 4e because the 'community' in question never played 4e at all, but rather paged through the book while taking the poo poo and decided they hated it. This is s shame because 4e had real problems that nobody every talks about (except here) that will never be updated or addressed. 5e isn't bad exactly, just deeply flawed and is more of a regression than any sort of innovation. By all means talk about it though; I think most of us would rather talk about an actual game than argue about 4e.
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May 5, 2015 18:16
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Dr. Tough posted:I bought the core books with an Amazon giftcard so if I don't like it I'm not out any money. Nah, you shoulda just opened with "I'm gonna start a 5e campaign, guys" since your opinion on 4e is irrelevant to your plans.
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May 5, 2015 18:16
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Sage Genesis posted:"When I first came here, this was all AD&D. Everyone said I was daft to build a modern D&D out of AD&D, but I built it all the same, just to show them. The game crashed. So I built a second version. That crashed. So I built a third. That got derailed, TPK'd, and then crashed. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest 3E in all of England!" "But fathaaaaa, I don't want to play D&D 3.833_ , I want to play 4E!"
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May 5, 2015 18:18
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Dr. Tough posted:I bought the core books with an Amazon giftcard so if I don't like it I'm not out any money. Amazon gift cards can be exchanged for goods and services
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May 5, 2015 18:18
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